What's next?

[JoshuaPotter]

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

How? It’s a factually true statement.

Bol was also involved when the team was winning. Does that mean he should be the starting PF and paid like one?

You could argue some of the best time we’ve seen from Orlando’s back court was with Cole and Suggs. Im not sure where you are getting that Fultz has shown anything this season to say he isn’t one of the worst starting point guards in the league.

OK, let me say what he is getting at.

We were a bottom 20-30 starting PG away from being a .500 team. Fultz + Coles return proved that.

The question is, if we nab a top 7-14 PG do we go from .500 to .600?

[basketballRob]

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

Also it's hard to debate he isn't top 5 worst starting PG.

Curry
Lillard
Jrue Holiday
Lamelo
Lonzo
Smart
Young
Murray
Fox
Garland
Harden
Haliburton
SGA
Brunson
CP3
Vleet
Doncic
McCulum
Morant
Kyrie

That's 20. So at apsolute best ,he is top 10 worst. And we can argue he is worst than Dinwiddie, Russell,Brogdon, whatever is left from Lowry, Clarkson....or that he will be much worst than Ivey next year.

That's awesome! So Markelle is a top 5 under 25 PG?

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[JoshuaPotter]

There is a history of the magic playing winning basketball with Fultz on the floor.

No, there is not.

Fultz's net rating in 2019-20: -1.7
Fultz's net rating in 2020-21: -6.5
Fultz's net rating in 2021-22: -5.3
Fultz's net rating in 2022/23: -6.4

I don't see any "winning basketball" here, do you? We have been outscored when he has been on the floor throughout his Magic career, and by a lot except in his first season.

Where do you find net rating?

I would love to see Paolo + Franz ytd net rating.

Paolo especially as I believe he gets more playing time with Fultz.

However, there would be noise for Paolo in season averages. He played without a starting PG of any kind for a good part of the season. So Paolo's number will have noise due to that. Whereas Fultz number is just that. His number on a close to .500 team.

[Skybox]

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

How? It’s a factually true statement.

Bol was also involved when the team was winning. Does that mean he should be the starting PF and paid like one?

You could argue some of the best time we’ve seen from Orlando’s back court was with Cole and Suggs. Im not sure where you are getting that Fultz has shown anything this season to say he isn’t one of the worst starting point guards in the league.

OK, let me say what he is getting at.

We were a bottom 20-30 starting PG away from being a .500 team. Fultz + Coles return proved that.

The question is, if we nab a top 7-14 PG do we go from .500 to .600?

A scoring PG is far and away the most impactful player in today's NBA...it would NOT be a small change

[Audi]

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

No. Perfect example of twisting stats for a nonsensical outcome. What’s obvious from all of this is that when our “big 3” starters are struggling, Fultz is “next man up”. Just look back on recent losses - all him playing well meant is that he tried but ultimately failed to overcome sub-par team - and more specifically, SL - performances. Things like… the entire team shooting in the low 20%s from 3…or our two star bigs grabbing a combined - one rebound.

It would hold merrit if stats in wins vs losses to guys like Wagner don't paint very different picture.
I already above mentioned Cole and how great his stats are in wins ( especially compared to awful performances in losses).

Now look at Fraz Wagner's stats in wins vs losses.



When Wagner is effective ( 50-40 split) Magic win.

It's even more on the nose clear with Paolo



It makes no logical sense why would starter preform so much better in losses than wins. For example, Carter performes pretty much the same. Paolo and Franz performances swing games in favor of L vs W, and Cole's performances 100% impact team's winning.

I'm trying to understand why you are so perplexed by this? Paolo, Franz, and WCJ are our typical the 1st, 2nd and 3rd options in the starting lineup. If any of them are having an off night, it makes perfect sense that Fultz (usually a 3rd or 4th option), tries to pick up the slack. When his good performance isn't enough to make up for the combined shortcomings of others in the SL and/or the bench is killing us that game...that results in a loss. Just take a look at game logs of Fultz's well performing games ending in losses. One of two things will typically show up (sometimes both) - 1. sub-par play by 2 or more starters and 2. terrible overall bench play. I don't see why this is hard to understand. It's not like Fultz isn't contributing at all to wins - he's just contributing like you'd expect a 3rd/4th option in the SL to do. Cole typically plays well in wins you say? That's also to be expected from the guy who is usually the 1st AND 2nd option off the bench.

[Knightro]

Orlando "had" to pay Fultz and Isaac large contracts (and Bamba and Harris) so the team would meet is min spending levels. All these contracts were not about value, but about creating cap flexibility for the future.

But: that future is now. The 2023 off-season will have a lot of medium-term deals rather than all these one-and-the-we-can-Waive deals.

I think the market for Isaac and Fultz will not keep these players at their current salary levels. Bt as stated by anothermagicfan, 17M is actually not a lot of money in the NBA these days.

Are Isaac and Fultz worth more than a MLE-level contract? No. Will they get more? Probably.

But not 20M a year.

This is factually not true.

The Magic at the time they agreed to the Fultz and Isaac contract extensions still had Vucevic under contract at 25M AAV, Fournier at 17M AAV and Gordon at 20M AAV.

They did not *need* to give those extensions out to hit any sort of salary floor, nor is there any actual penalty for not hitting the salary floor either.

[Residual-Heat]

good morning. first time poster.
i like Fultz and think he has become a decent player. i just dont like the fit with our young core when neither Suggs or Paolo are good shooters. Id be fine with signing FVV and moving on from Fultz. FVV is more durable, has championship experience and can shoot the 3.

[Bergmaniac]

There is a history of the magic playing winning basketball with Fultz on the floor.

No, there is not.

Fultz's net rating in 2019-20: -1.7
Fultz's net rating in 2020-21: -6.5
Fultz's net rating in 2021-22: -5.3
Fultz's net rating in 2022/23: -6.4

I don't see any "winning basketball" here, do you? We have been outscored when he has been on the floor throughout his Magic career, and by a lot except in his first season.

Where do you find net rating?

I would love to see Paolo + Franz ytd net rating.

Paolo especially as I believe he gets more playing time with Fultz.

However, there would be noise for Paolo in season averages. He played without a starting PG of any kind for a good part of the season. So Paolo's number will have noise due to that. Whereas Fultz number is just that. His number on a close to .500 team.

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612753/onoffcourt-advanced

[VFX]

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

How? It’s a factually true statement.

Bol was also involved when the team was winning. Does that mean he should be the starting PF and paid like one?

You could argue some of the best time we’ve seen from Orlando’s back court was with Cole and Suggs. Im not sure where you are getting that Fultz has shown anything this season to say he isn’t one of the worst starting point guards in the league.

OK, let me say what he is getting at.

We were a bottom 20-30 starting PG away from being a .500 team. Fultz + Coles return proved that.

The question is, if we nab a top 7-14 PG do we go from .500 to .600?

If SGA, Haliburton, or Garland were at point guard instead of Fultz?

The answer is yes.

[Residual-Heat]

i wonder if the Hornets would be willing to trade Lamelo if they draft Scoot.

[Knightro]

i wonder if the Hornets would be willing to trade Lamelo if they draft Scoot.

You gotta make the call to Charlotte if they end up with the 2nd overall pick after the lotto. Either for Ball or Henderson.

Also welcome.

[Residual-Heat]

i wonder if the Hornets would be willing to trade Lamelo if they draft Scoot.

You gotta make the call to Charlotte if they end up with the 2nd overall pick after the lotto. Either for Ball or Henderson.

Also welcome.

Thanks. Yeah id definitely be interested in either one.

[Audi]

There is a history of the magic playing winning basketball with Fultz on the floor.

No, there is not.

Fultz's net rating in 2019-20: -1.7
Fultz's net rating in 2020-21: -6.5
Fultz's net rating in 2021-22: -5.3
Fultz's net rating in 2022/23: -6.4

I don't see any "winning basketball" here, do you? We have been outscored when he has been on the floor throughout his Magic career, and by a lot except in his first season.

Where do you find net rating?

I would love to see Paolo + Franz ytd net rating.

Paolo especially as I believe he gets more playing time with Fultz.

However, there would be noise for Paolo in season averages. He played without a starting PG of any kind for a good part of the season. So Paolo's number will have noise due to that. Whereas Fultz number is just that. His number on a close to .500 team.

If we want to say Fultz isn't contributing to winning basketball, neither is anyone else on the team. So like...BlOw iT uP, right?
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.2 with Markelle Fultz this season. -5.7 without (21 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -4.1 with Gary Harris this season. -1.5 without (29 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -3.0 with Franz Wagner this season. +11.2 without (1 game)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.7 with Paolo Banchero this season. -3.3 without (7 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Wendell Carter Jr. this season. -4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Cole Anthony this season.-4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.6 with Jalen Suggs this season. -3.1 without (25 games)

[pepe1991]

Banchero's & Franz's net rating is dragged through mud as they had to suffer through start of season where Magic were on regular bases played bums like: Okeke, Hampton,Ross, Schofield, Houstan not Gary Harris, Mo Bamba...


I googled game schedule, clicked on random Indiana blowout L (102-123) and i found this epic bunch of bodies with Banchero and Franz. You could start prime Wade and Lebron and their net ratings would be awful if they had to play with this bunch

[JoshuaPotter]

No, there is not.

Fultz's net rating in 2019-20: -1.7
Fultz's net rating in 2020-21: -6.5
Fultz's net rating in 2021-22: -5.3
Fultz's net rating in 2022/23: -6.4

I don't see any "winning basketball" here, do you? We have been outscored when he has been on the floor throughout his Magic career, and by a lot except in his first season.

Where do you find net rating?

I would love to see Paolo + Franz ytd net rating.

Paolo especially as I believe he gets more playing time with Fultz.

However, there would be noise for Paolo in season averages. He played without a starting PG of any kind for a good part of the season. So Paolo's number will have noise due to that. Whereas Fultz number is just that. His number on a close to .500 team.

If we want to say Fultz isn't contributing to winning basketball, neither is anyone else on the team. So like...BlOw iT uP, right?
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.2 with Markelle Fultz this season. -5.7 without (21 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -4.1 with Gary Harris this season. -1.5 without (29 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -3.0 with Franz Wagner this season. +11.2 without (1 game)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.7 with Paolo Banchero this season. -3.3 without (7 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Wendell Carter Jr. this season. -4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Cole Anthony this season.-4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.6 with Jalen Suggs this season. -3.1 without (25 games)

It was an an inquiry into more then just a glance at number while yelling "Fultz has to go".

The biggest things those net ratings tell me is that that Paolo may not contribute just to "empty stats".

There is always something to take away, and right now one of the bigger take aways is Fultz data does not have the of any significant amount of games played without Franz and Paolo.

Where is any total net rating for Franz and Paolo contains a significant number of more games.

It's not what makes a person decide anything as we could also lookup at lineup efficiency to determine whats the best lineup. Remember the 6 game win streak? Our starters had a huge negative net rating while our bench was playing like the best bench in the league.

[Audi]

Banchero's & Franz's net rating is dragged through mud as they had to suffer through start of season where Magic were on regular bases played bums like: Okeke, Hampton,Ross, Schofield, Houstan not Gary Harris, Mo Bamba...


I googled game schedule, clicked on random Indiana blowout L (102-123) and i found this epic bunch of bodies with Banchero and Franz. You could start prime Wade and Lebron and their net ratings would be awful if they had to play with this bunch

This is true.

Truth be told we really don't have a great sample size for much meaningful team analysis this season in general. Our most used lineup of Fultz/Gary/Franz/Paolo/WCJ has only logged 622 possessions (with a +2.4 efficiency differential). Compare that to, say, SAC with their top LU logging almost 2x that at 1,400 possessions.

[Knightro]

If we want to say Fultz isn't contributing to winning basketball, neither is anyone else on the team. So like...BlOw iT uP, right?

The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.2 with Markelle Fultz this season. -5.7 without (21 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -4.1 with Gary Harris this season. -1.5 without (29 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -3.0 with Franz Wagner this season. +11.2 without (1 game)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.7 with Paolo Banchero this season. -3.3 without (7 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Wendell Carter Jr. this season. -4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Cole Anthony this season.-4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.6 with Jalen Suggs this season. -3.1 without (25 games)

Most of these numbers aren't correct.

Net Rating This Season Overall
Franz +1.1
Moritz -1.3
Cole -1.4
Carter -2.0
Suggs -2.3
Harris -3.0
Houston -3.4
Isaac -3.5
Bol -4.2
Banchero -4.5
Fultz -6.4
Okeke -9.1

Net Rating SINCE FULTZ RETURNED on 11/30
K. Harris +14.8
Bamba +9.9
Franz +3.8
Schofield +3.6
Houstan +1.7
Suggs +0.9
Anthony -0.4
Moritz -0.6
Harris -2.8
Isaac -3.5
Carter -3.9
Banchero -4.0
Bol -4.3
Fultz -6.4
Okeke -19.2 (one game sample)

Think about this for a second. The Magic's record when Fultz plays is 19-19, yet his net rating is the worst on the entire team.

What does that tell you? They're winning in spite of him, not because of him.

Here's some more stats to chew on...

Franz/Paolo together: +0.5
Franz/Paolo with Fultz: -0.8

Franz/Carter together: +4.3
Franz/Carter with Fultz: +2.3

Fultz/Houstan: -22.3
Fultz/Cole: -21.0
Fultz/Bol: -12.7
Fultz/Suggs: -12.5
Fultz/Isaac: -10.8
Fultz/Moritz: -8.4
Fultz/Paolo: -6.1
Fultz/Okeke: -5.0
Fultz/Carter: -3.2
Fultz/Franz: -0.2

MARKELLE FULTZ LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE A POSITIVE NET RATING WITH ANY OTHER PLAYER CURRENTLY STILL ON THE TEAM

[Audi]

If we want to say Fultz isn't contributing to winning basketball, neither is anyone else on the team. So like...BlOw iT uP, right?

The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.2 with Markelle Fultz this season. -5.7 without (21 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -4.1 with Gary Harris this season. -1.5 without (29 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -3.0 with Franz Wagner this season. +11.2 without (1 game)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.7 with Paolo Banchero this season. -3.3 without (7 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Wendell Carter Jr. this season. -4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Cole Anthony this season.-4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.6 with Jalen Suggs this season. -3.1 without (25 games)

Most of these numbers aren't correct.

Net Rating This Season Overall
Franz +1.1
Moritz -1.3
Cole -1.4
Carter -2.0
Suggs -2.3
Harris -3.0
Houston -3.4
Isaac -3.5
Bol -4.2
Banchero -4.5
Fultz -6.4
Okeke -9.1

Net Rating SINCE FULTZ RETURNED on 11/30
K. Harris +14.8
Bamba +9.9
Franz +3.8
Schofield +3.6
Houstan +1.7
Suggs +0.9
Anthony -0.4
Moritz -0.6
Harris -2.8
Isaac -3.5
Carter -3.9
Banchero -4.0
Bol -4.3
Fultz -6.4
Okeke -19.2 (one game sample)

Think about this for a second. The Magic's record when Fultz plays is 19-19, yet his net rating is the worst on the entire team.

What does that tell you? They're winning in spite of him, not because of him.

Here's some more stats to chew on...

Franz/Paolo together: +0.5
Franz/Paolo with Fultz: -0.8

Franz/Carter together: +4.3
Franz/Carter with Fultz: +2.3

Fultz/Houstan: -22.3
Fultz/Cole: -21.0
Fultz/Bol: -12.7
Fultz/Suggs: -12.5
Fultz/Isaac: -10.8
Fultz/Moritz: -8.4
Fultz/Paolo: -6.1
Fultz/Okeke: -5.0
Fultz/Carter: -3.2
Fultz/Franz: -0.2

MARKELLE FULTZ LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE A POSITIVE NET RATING WITH ANY OTHER PLAYER CURRENTLY STILL ON THE TEAM

What I posted were team net ratings, not individual.

[Bergmaniac]

If we want to say Fultz isn't contributing to winning basketball, neither is anyone else on the team. So like...BlOw iT uP, right?
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.2 with Markelle Fultz this season. -5.7 without (21 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -4.1 with Gary Harris this season. -1.5 without (29 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -3.0 with Franz Wagner this season. +11.2 without (1 game)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.7 with Paolo Banchero this season. -3.3 without (7 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Wendell Carter Jr. this season. -4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -1.7 with Cole Anthony this season.-4.9 without (20 games)
The Orlando Magic have a net rating of -2.6 with Jalen Suggs this season. -3.1 without (25 games)

Why would use the data comparing the games they have played in with compared to the ones they haven't instead of the much more relevant one about the actual minutes they are on the court?

Franz's data is the best example why your approach is completely flawed. He missed one game which we won. But over the whole season we have been way better when he has been on the court (1.1 net rating) compared to -10.4 when he is not. That's 11.5 on/off rating, which is elite. He's been by far the biggest reason for the positive results. In most games we've won it's been the bench with Franz which has made a decisive run. And when the starters have played without Franz, they have usually been pretty bad. It's especially noticaeble with Fultz and Banchero, who have played 367 minutes without Franz and the result is a horrendous -16.01 net rating.

[Knightro]

What I posted were team net ratings, not individual.

I'm not totally sure what information you're citing. An individual player's net rating is how the whole team performs when said player is on the court.

Please help me out here and let me know where you're getting these figures because A. I can't find them and B. Nor do I know of a significant difference between "team net rating" and individual net ratings which are tied to team performance obviously.