(LOCK THREAD) The LeBron James - 22-23 NBA Season Thread -NBA's All-Time Scoring Leader!

[PistolPeteJR]

It's a bit odd to me because from what I recall, Gregoire was a good poster. I don't know what's happened over the last few months, but it's odd.

By "good poster", I mean respectful, comes across as objective, no drama, etc.

[Kingdibs19]

Will Barton just got waived, is he still decent ?

[jalengreen]

Will Barton just got waived, is he still decent ?

Nope

[Blackmill]

Jordan was better at his best 1,3,6, arguably 9 seasons. Averaging 30ppg today its not the same, its more like averaging 30ppg in Wilt era.

Sure, 30ppg is not the same today as it was back then, a few counterpoints:

1. Lebron is not really a player of the current era. The first part of his career was in the toughest defensive era.
2. While I'll admit that 88-93 Jordan is better than any Lebron stretch, Lebron was 95% as good, and has lasted twice as long. It's honestly no contest. Unless you just completely ignore longevity, Lebron is the best ever, by a lot at this point.

IMO, Lebron surpassed Jordan in 2016, 7 years ago

1. All of LeBron "longevity" is actually from this era. Inflated era.
2. Jordan was clearly better at peak, prime ect. Its not so close actually. Even if we assume that Lebron at his peak and prime (2007-2018) was 95% as good as MJ (87-98), which I dont think is the case, 90% more likely, I dont think its enough for Lebron to surpass MJ with 2019-2022 "longevity" in the inflated era. And this assuming we take additive approach, which I dont use in GOAT conversations, because In this case Kareem also is better than LeBron and Jordan.
I like holistic approach, where Peak and prime weighted significantly more than longevity without titles, much impact and in the inflated era. Basically who was the best at their best, when they "dominated" the league.

This board consists of huge amount of Lebron fanboys and nuthuggers, its obvious (you are not one of them), so its nonsentical to talk with them, its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who is the GOAT. And its not LeChoke.
Casual:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2267491&start=300
Analytics :
https://iswetha522.medium.com/jordan-vs-lebron-a-data-analytics-challenge-e4aa6d0fb095

A curtain!

Gregoire, there's plenty of reasons to see Jordan as the GOAT. I voted LeBron as #1 in the last top-100 project, but a couple years later, I see it as a near toss up for peak and prime, with Jordan having the easier argument in my head. But you can't seriously be looking at that medium post, and think it's a proper analysis of Jordan and LeBron, right?

Respectfully, the author's credentials are that they finished a boot camp, and that's it. The actual data analysis is bare bones -- most of it is exposition and presentation of the box scores -- and it doesn't seem like the author has much knowledge of basketball. I'm sure the author is a smart person, but what they're trying to do requires both smarts and experience, and I don't think they have much experience on either the technical or the basketball fronts.

I think we've all been frustrated by other people seemingly watching a totally different game, but it doesn't help to let that frustrating boil over into hyperbole or reductivism. It doesn't garner good faith, and you can't expect a cordial, productive, or enjoyable discussion without that.

[thebigbird]

To whatever extent LeBron’s stats are boosted by “stat inflation,” it’s offset by the unfavorable whistle he gets. He’s averaging 6.4 free throws a game. During his time in LA, he’s averaged 6.3 per game. Compare that to some other guys averaging 30+ ppg. Luka - 11.1; Giannis - 13.0 (over double LeBron’s average); Embiid - 11.6.

The fact LeBron is near the top of the league in ppg despite getting a far worse whistle than others is a testament to his greatness. It’s not “stat inflation,” it’s excellence.

[PaulieWal]

Did this idiot just say, "LeChoke" and expects anyone to take him seriously? As I said these people are caricatures of caricatures. To be pointed and laughed at.

Yeah, this won't fly at all.

Warned.

[PaulieWal]

1. All of LeBron "longevity" is actually from this era. Inflated era.
2. Jordan was clearly better at peak, prime ect. Its not so close actually. Even if we assume that Lebron at his peak and prime (2007-2018) was 95% as good as MJ (87-98), which I dont think is the case, 90% more likely, I dont think its enough for Lebron to surpass MJ with 2019-2022 "longevity" in the inflated era. And this assuming we take additive approach, which I dont use in GOAT conversations, because In this case Kareem also is better than LeBron and Jordan.
I like holistic approach, where Peak and prime weighted significantly more than longevity without titles, much impact and in the inflated era. Basically who was the best at their best, when they "dominated" the league.

This board consists of huge amount of Lebron fanboys and nuthuggers, its obvious (you are not one of them), so its nonsentical to talk with them, its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who is the GOAT. And its not LeChoke.
Casual:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2267491&start=300
Analytics :
https://iswetha522.medium.com/jordan-vs-lebron-a-data-analytics-challenge-e4aa6d0fb095

A curtain!

Yeah, this isn't allowed either. Warned

[Cavsfansince84]

To whatever extent LeBron’s stats are boosted by “stat inflation,” it’s offset by the unfavorable whistle he gets. He’s averaging 6.4 free throws a game. During his time in LA, he’s averaged 6.3 per game. Compare that to some other guys averaging 30+ ppg. Luka - 11.1; Giannis - 13.0 (over double LeBron’s average); Embiid - 11.6.

The fact LeBron is near the top of the league in ppg despite getting a far worse whistle than others is a testament to his greatness. It’s not “stat inflation,” it’s excellence.

I'd agree there is some degree of efficiency inflation in the last few years but there's no real taking away from a guy averaging 30ppg on better than average efficiency at age 38. It's totally unprecedented in league history. I don't think we will ever appreciate how much effort it takes for a guy to keep his body in such good shape either. Really only LeBron and his trainer will know. Even with Kareem, it was pretty obvious that physically he couldn't do near what he could 10 years earlier but just had so much length and skill that he was still very hard to stop in the post. With LeBron, he's out there moving around and doing things that make it seem like he's only 33.

[PistolPeteJR]

I don’t think I ever derail a thread, nor is that my intention here; more just an avenue to vent, and choosing to do it in one of the threads I frequent the most:

The quality of posters and by extension posts here on RealGM has really deteriorated the last 1-2 years or so, and it feels even worse the last 6 months, give or take. It’s becoming increasingly frustrating to tune into threads in any basketball sub (the worst being GB, but it’s worsening in PC and TT as well) and seeing the incredulousness on a number of levels. It’s sad, it really is, because this place used to be (still is in some ways for now) such a joy to frequent multiple times a day, but the gradual decline is becoming more and more vivid. In some ways, it’s kind of like how the game is today, increasingly entertainment-centered (eg. offense > everything, technical fouls galore, etc.). At least the game has become more strategic in some ways.

Anyway, appreciate those of you who try and generally do keep a level head, and I encourage those of you (myself included) who can get into it with some posters who are clearly spewing nonsense to hit the ignore button and move on.

[ShaqAttac]

Sure, 30ppg is not the same today as it was back then, a few counterpoints:

1. Lebron is not really a player of the current era. The first part of his career was in the toughest defensive era.
2. While I'll admit that 88-93 Jordan is better than any Lebron stretch, Lebron was 95% as good, and has lasted twice as long. It's honestly no contest. Unless you just completely ignore longevity, Lebron is the best ever, by a lot at this point.

IMO, Lebron surpassed Jordan in 2016, 7 years ago

1. All of LeBron "longevity" is actually from this era. Inflated era.
2. Jordan was clearly better at peak, prime ect. Its not so close actually. Even if we assume that Lebron at his peak and prime (2007-2018) was 95% as good as MJ (87-98), which I dont think is the case, 90% more likely, I dont think its enough for Lebron to surpass MJ with 2019-2022 "longevity" in the inflated era. And this assuming we take additive approach, which I dont use in GOAT conversations, because In this case Kareem also is better than LeBron and Jordan.
I like holistic approach, where Peak and prime weighted significantly more than longevity without titles, much impact and in the inflated era. Basically who was the best at their best, when they "dominated" the league.

This board consists of huge amount of Lebron fanboys and nuthuggers, its obvious (you are not one of them), so its nonsentical to talk with them, its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who is the GOAT. And its not LeChoke.
Casual:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2267491&start=300
Analytics :
https://iswetha522.medium.com/jordan-vs-lebron-a-data-analytics-challenge-e4aa6d0fb095

A curtain!

Gregoire, there's plenty of reasons to see Jordan as the GOAT. I voted LeBron as #1 in the last top-100 project, but a couple years later, I see it as a near toss up for peak and prime, with Jordan having the easier argument in my head. But you can't seriously be looking at that medium post, and think it's a proper analysis of Jordan and LeBron, right?

Respectfully, the author's credentials are that they finished a boot camp, and that's it. The actual data analysis is bare bones -- most of it is exposition and presentation of the box scores -- and it doesn't seem like the author has much knowledge of basketball. I'm sure the author is a smart person, but what they're trying to do requires both smarts and experience, and I don't think they have much experience on either the technical or the basketball fronts.

I think we've all been frustrated by other people seemingly watching a totally different game, but it doesn't help to let that frustrating boil over into hyperbole or reductivism. It doesn't garner good faith, and you can't expect a cordial, productive, or enjoyable discussion without that.

wut even is mjs peak arg? bro gets cooked in "impact" and all the excuses i see ppl try to make keep gettin skewered by ppl who know what theyre talkin bout

[Heej]

1. All of LeBron "longevity" is actually from this era. Inflated era.
2. Jordan was clearly better at peak, prime ect. Its not so close actually. Even if we assume that Lebron at his peak and prime (2007-2018) was 95% as good as MJ (87-98), which I dont think is the case, 90% more likely, I dont think its enough for Lebron to surpass MJ with 2019-2022 "longevity" in the inflated era. And this assuming we take additive approach, which I dont use in GOAT conversations, because In this case Kareem also is better than LeBron and Jordan.
I like holistic approach, where Peak and prime weighted significantly more than longevity without titles, much impact and in the inflated era. Basically who was the best at their best, when they "dominated" the league.

This board consists of huge amount of Lebron fanboys and nuthuggers, its obvious (you are not one of them), so its nonsentical to talk with them, its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who is the GOAT. And its not LeChoke.
Casual:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2267491&start=300
Analytics :
https://iswetha522.medium.com/jordan-vs-lebron-a-data-analytics-challenge-e4aa6d0fb095

A curtain!

Gregoire, there's plenty of reasons to see Jordan as the GOAT. I voted LeBron as #1 in the last top-100 project, but a couple years later, I see it as a near toss up for peak and prime, with Jordan having the easier argument in my head. But you can't seriously be looking at that medium post, and think it's a proper analysis of Jordan and LeBron, right?

Respectfully, the author's credentials are that they finished a boot camp, and that's it. The actual data analysis is bare bones -- most of it is exposition and presentation of the box scores -- and it doesn't seem like the author has much knowledge of basketball. I'm sure the author is a smart person, but what they're trying to do requires both smarts and experience, and I don't think they have much experience on either the technical or the basketball fronts.

I think we've all been frustrated by other people seemingly watching a totally different game, but it doesn't help to let that frustrating boil over into hyperbole or reductivism. It doesn't garner good faith, and you can't expect a cordial, productive, or enjoyable discussion without that.

wut even is mjs peak arg? bro gets cooked in "impact" and all the excuses i see ppl try to make keep gettin skewered by ppl who know what theyre talkin bout

Yea it's funny seeing the article that was linked as "analytics" basically being summed up as stuff we already know in that MJ shot more and had a more favorable team situation. Seems the more we unpack what actually went on with those Bulls the less the "mystique" holds up. Had a good thread going with that impact thread that showed how favorably LeBron compared with stats that more accurately accounted for defense and how their teams played with him on the floor vs just being beholden to the box score

Surely there was a better article that could've been chosen though, but I think Gregoire just really liked the pretty looking graphs haha.

[capfan33]

To whatever extent LeBron’s stats are boosted by “stat inflation,” it’s offset by the unfavorable whistle he gets. He’s averaging 6.4 free throws a game. During his time in LA, he’s averaged 6.3 per game. Compare that to some other guys averaging 30+ ppg. Luka - 11.1; Giannis - 13.0 (over double LeBron’s average); Embiid - 11.6.

The fact LeBron is near the top of the league in ppg despite getting a far worse whistle than others is a testament to his greatness. It’s not “stat inflation,” it’s excellence.

I'd agree there is some degree of efficiency inflation in the last few years but there's no real taking away from a guy averaging 30ppg on better than average efficiency at age 38. It's totally unprecedented in league history. I don't think we will ever appreciate how much effort it takes for a guy to keep his body in such good shape either. Really only LeBron and his trainer will know. Even with Kareem, it was pretty obvious that physically he couldn't do near what he could 10 years earlier but just had so much length and skill that he was still very hard to stop in the post. With LeBron, he's out there moving around and doing things that make it seem like he's only 33.

I hate the way the game is played today and stats are definitely inflated, but even if you took 15% of Lebron's points away from the past 4 years he would still easily be on track to pass Kareem and get to 40k. And also given the postseason mileage he has, he probably has the most impressive longevity ever at this point or is neck and neck with Kareem at worst.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah if bron got a normal whistle he’d be the best player in the nba still when healthy lol ngl so idk what the stat inflation argument is about

Stay inflation is from

More heliocentric offenses

Defenses being more restricted

Spacing

Bron probably has the worst whistle in the league, and they’ve only had good spacing post westbrook trade.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Read on Twitter

[ardee]

Almost reads like Gregoire's account got hacked.

[TroubleS0me]

yea ..continue here guys - Part 2


viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2269387

[Colbinii]

Read on Twitter

Hahaha...hahaha...haha..ha **** refs