DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

Who's on your DPOY ballot? (Pick 3.)

Jaren Jackson Jr.
83
21%
Brook Lopez
87
22%
Giannis Antetokounmpo
60
15%
Evan Mobley
37
9%
Bam Adebayo
17
4%
Nic Claxton
17
4%
Jarrett Allen
6
2%
Alex Caruso
15
4%
Jaden McDaniels
29
7%
Other
49
12%
 
Total votes: 400

User avatar
-Luke-
Analyst
Posts: 3,291
And1: 6,877
Joined: Feb 21, 2021
Contact:
   

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#381 » by -Luke- » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:20 pm

yoyoboy wrote:Rob Williams comes in at #3 on NBA.com’s DPOY ladder. He’s played 27 percent of the minutes Mobley has played this season.

Like I said, the award is as unserious as it gets, and all about narrative and reputation. Most of the voters don’t even watch the teams who aren’t broadcast on national TV most nights.

If they are doing the same thing as with the MVP ladder, no big surprise. Huge recency bias. A player has two great games when 80% of all games are played and jumps like 6 spots in the MVP ladder.
User avatar
cupcakesnake
Senior Mod- WNBA
Senior Mod- WNBA
Posts: 15,697
And1: 32,293
Joined: Jul 21, 2016
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#382 » by cupcakesnake » Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:14 pm

mrmsix6 wrote:Should have been obivous to everyone that DPOY is a fraudulent award when freaking Marcus Smart won it last year.


Who was your pick last year?
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."

Co-hosting with Harry Garris at The Underhand Freethrow Podcast
User avatar
yoyoboy
RealGM
Posts: 15,866
And1: 19,077
Joined: Jan 29, 2015
     

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#383 » by yoyoboy » Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:24 pm

Draymond deserved it last year imo.
User avatar
ITYSL
General Manager
Posts: 8,457
And1: 11,358
Joined: May 04, 2017
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#384 » by ITYSL » Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:02 am

JJJ deserves the love, but Mobley and Claxton should be getting more love imo. Caruso as well. Perfect description of a really good defensive guard is calling them a "pest." Suits him perfectly.
Jurassic_Park
Rookie
Posts: 1,035
And1: 843
Joined: May 27, 2015
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#385 » by Jurassic_Park » Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:01 am

JJJ has this award locked. Wonder who finishes 2nd
Ritzo
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,901
And1: 2,785
Joined: Dec 06, 2016
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#386 » by Ritzo » Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:46 am

Jurassic_Park wrote:JJJ has this award locked. Wonder who finishes 2nd

NBA com have BroLo at 1 in the ladder just a couple days ago, JJJ definitely not a locked.
Jurassic_Park
Rookie
Posts: 1,035
And1: 843
Joined: May 27, 2015
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#387 » by Jurassic_Park » Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:44 pm

Ritzo wrote:
Jurassic_Park wrote:JJJ has this award locked. Wonder who finishes 2nd

NBA com have BroLo at 1 in the ladder just a couple days ago, JJJ definitely not a locked.


Their ladder makes no sense at all. It has Robert Williams 3rd and OG in the top 5..

With 20 games left, JJJ is the massive favourite across all sportsbooks to win it.

For instance, Rob Williams is 3rd on nba ladder, yet he is 151x for odds to win it. No way he should be ahead of Bam
Dacost
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,803
And1: 1,508
Joined: Feb 21, 2017

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#388 » by Dacost » Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:53 pm

Ritzo wrote:
Jurassic_Park wrote:JJJ has this award locked. Wonder who finishes 2nd

NBA com have BroLo at 1 in the ladder just a couple days ago, JJJ definitely not a locked.

Just trying to get attention and clicks.
Tha King
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,760
And1: 933
Joined: Apr 11, 2007
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#389 » by Tha King » Fri Feb 17, 2023 8:12 pm

Claxton-Bridges in their first three games (Sixers, Knicks, Heat): +11.2 in 65 minutes with a 99.2 defensive rating.

Very early days but they are off to a good start.
Whateva
Pro Prospect
Posts: 935
And1: 97
Joined: Jun 09, 2006
Location: Spain

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#390 » by Whateva » Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:19 am

cupcakesnake wrote:
mrmsix6 wrote:Should have been obivous to everyone that DPOY is a fraudulent award when freaking Marcus Smart won it last year.


Who was your pick last year?

last year was clearly Robert Williams III the DPOY
User avatar
cupcakesnake
Senior Mod- WNBA
Senior Mod- WNBA
Posts: 15,697
And1: 32,293
Joined: Jul 21, 2016
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#391 » by cupcakesnake » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:44 pm

Whateva wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
mrmsix6 wrote:Should have been obivous to everyone that DPOY is a fraudulent award when freaking Marcus Smart won it last year.


Who was your pick last year?

last year was clearly Robert Williams III the DPOY


I think I agree with this. Marcus Smart played only 10 more games and that allowed him to essentially hijack the DPOY case because of the timing of Rob's injury. I totally understand giving it to a Celtic that year... but give it to the best Celtics defender instead of switching to the 3rd or 4th best defender because of injury timing.

Missed games being narrative based becomes kind of blatant in examples like this. Had Time Lord missed 20 games at the beginning of the season, he would have won it (JJJ being the current theoretical proof of this). Had he missed 20 games in spurts across the season, he would have won it. The fact that he hadn't been playing for a while at the time of the voting lost him the award.

Despite Rob being the favorite at the time of his injury... Bam Adebayo and Rudy Gobert leap frogged him despite Bam playing less games overall and Rudy only playing 5 more. It was realllllly silly.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."

Co-hosting with Harry Garris at The Underhand Freethrow Podcast
User avatar
ForeverTFC
RealGM
Posts: 18,017
And1: 19,691
Joined: Dec 07, 2004
         

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#392 » by ForeverTFC » Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:28 pm

Jurassic_Park wrote:JJJ has this award locked. Wonder who finishes 2nd


A good PR push could get Giannis in there. He's a deserving choice imo alongside JJJ (and much better competition than Brook Lopez and Claxton - no offense to those guys)
User avatar
ForeverTFC
RealGM
Posts: 18,017
And1: 19,691
Joined: Dec 07, 2004
         

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#393 » by ForeverTFC » Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:30 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
Whateva wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
Who was your pick last year?

last year was clearly Robert Williams III the DPOY


I think I agree with this. Marcus Smart played only 10 more games and that allowed him to essentially hijack the DPOY case because of the timing of Rob's injury. I totally understand giving it to a Celtic that year... but give it to the best Celtics defender instead of switching to the 3rd or 4th best defender because of injury timing.

Missed games being narrative based becomes kind of blatant in examples like this. Had Time Lord missed 20 games at the beginning of the season, he would have won it (JJJ being the current theoretical proof of this). Had he missed 20 games in spurts across the season, he would have won it. The fact that he hadn't been playing for a while at the time of the voting lost him the award.

Despite Rob being the favorite at the time of his injury... Bam Adebayo and Rudy Gobert leap frogged him despite Bam playing less games overall and Rudy only playing 5 more. It was realllllly silly.


I get factoring in injuries to create separation, but when the separation is already clear we really need to stop injecting them into the narrative. Both Rob Williams and Draymond were WAY ahead of Smart last year, regardless of how many games they played. I just can't understand how someone looks at a ballot, sees those guys on there, and chooses Smart, regardless of games missed.
User avatar
cupcakesnake
Senior Mod- WNBA
Senior Mod- WNBA
Posts: 15,697
And1: 32,293
Joined: Jul 21, 2016
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#394 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:13 am

ForeverTFC wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
Whateva wrote:last year was clearly Robert Williams III the DPOY


I think I agree with this. Marcus Smart played only 10 more games and that allowed him to essentially hijack the DPOY case because of the timing of Rob's injury. I totally understand giving it to a Celtic that year... but give it to the best Celtics defender instead of switching to the 3rd or 4th best defender because of injury timing.

Missed games being narrative based becomes kind of blatant in examples like this. Had Time Lord missed 20 games at the beginning of the season, he would have won it (JJJ being the current theoretical proof of this). Had he missed 20 games in spurts across the season, he would have won it. The fact that he hadn't been playing for a while at the time of the voting lost him the award.

Despite Rob being the favorite at the time of his injury... Bam Adebayo and Rudy Gobert leap frogged him despite Bam playing less games overall and Rudy only playing 5 more. It was realllllly silly.


I get factoring in injuries to create separation, but when the separation is already clear we really need to stop injecting them into the narrative. Both Rob Williams and Draymond were WAY ahead of Smart last year, regardless of how many games they played. I just can't understand how someone looks at a ballot, sees those guys on there, and chooses Smart, regardless of games missed.


The Smart campaign happened so fast. It was weird.
I think the thing about DPOY is that not enough of voters care enough about it. Lots of them don't want to have a dumb vote so they'll pay attention to what other people are saying, but once there's a nice consensus on someone they stop thinking about it. It doesn't get scrutinized enough. Smart is a very good defender, his reputation is well known, and he was playing on a defensive juggernaut that was the talk of the town.

That all being said, I know some smart people (no pun intended) that picked Smart that year.
Rob Williams would have been my vote.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."

Co-hosting with Harry Garris at The Underhand Freethrow Podcast
Dacost
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,803
And1: 1,508
Joined: Feb 21, 2017

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#395 » by Dacost » Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:57 pm

ForeverTFC wrote:
Jurassic_Park wrote:JJJ has this award locked. Wonder who finishes 2nd


A good PR push could get Giannis in there. He's a deserving choice imo alongside JJJ (and much better competition than Brook Lopez and Claxton - no offense to those guys)

Yea I don't think so the only hope there is if JJJ misses a few more games due to injury.
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 18,514
And1: 8,804
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#396 » by Skin » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:29 am

Where is the option for Alex Caruso?
TroubleS0me
General Manager
Posts: 9,086
And1: 6,315
Joined: Dec 17, 2014

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#397 » by TroubleS0me » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:39 am

Read on Twitter
User avatar
cupcakesnake
Senior Mod- WNBA
Senior Mod- WNBA
Posts: 15,697
And1: 32,293
Joined: Jul 21, 2016
 

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#398 » by cupcakesnake » Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:06 pm

Skin wrote:Where is the option for Alex Caruso?


Who would you knock out of the current poll to replace with Caruso?
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."

Co-hosting with Harry Garris at The Underhand Freethrow Podcast
User avatar
yoyoboy
RealGM
Posts: 15,866
And1: 19,077
Joined: Jan 29, 2015
     

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#399 » by yoyoboy » Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:57 pm

People frankly just don’t care about actually being on the court as much as they should.

I think JJJ is the most impactful per-minute defender in the NBA. But he’s played a total of 1088 minutes this season. 39.6% of the team’s possible minutes this year.

Compare that to a guy like Mobley who’s played 2016 minutes this season. Almost 1000 more minutes and near twice as many as JJJ. And the 5th most minutes in the league this year.

For one, it’s much harder to maintain the same defensive performance the more minutes you play. That’s not just due to the fact it wears you down over the course of the season and you can’t expend the same amount of energy, but also because variance is less of a statistical factor, so things such as opponent offensive efficiency can regress and you won’t have as extreme of values across defensive measures. Furthermore, for guys who don’t miss time who are also on teams with backups who can adequately replace them in lineups for short stints, you don’t give your team the chance to “miss you” and that’s reflected in the plus-minus data maybe not being as impressive.

But more importantly, you’re providing ZERO defensive value to your team when you’re not on the court. For a guy to play half as many minutes as other contenders (for MVP, DPOY, or any other award) and still win it, he would have to theoretically be so far ahead of the rest of the competition it’s not even funny.

I think it shows time and time again on this board that people really don’t value sample sizes or availability. Which is why you’ll see people extrapolating to per-36 minute figures often, dismissing the habit of missing significant time every season, and being willing to crown one guy better than another player based on the first 5 games of the season or a short playoff series.
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 18,514
And1: 8,804
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#400 » by Skin » Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:59 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
Skin wrote:Where is the option for Alex Caruso?


Who would you knock out of the current poll to replace with Caruso?

He's #1 in Defensive RAPTOR. I'm curious what the opinion is about that.

Return to The General Board