Windhorst: Westbrook Triple Double average more impressive than Jokic

[1993Playoffs]

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At the 4 min mark

Dahell? One of the rare times Windy completely missed the mark

[Wolfgang630]

He said stats are more inflated now

[Dominator83]

Does he steal teammates rebounds?

[Dutchball97]

Even compared to 2017 there is a significant difference in both scoring volume and efficiency. Teams are scoring 9 points more on average per game this season than in 2016/17. So scoring a higher amount of points now, as well as likely getting more assists, is easier and less valuable today. However, Westbrook got his triple double on exactly league average TS%. The league average TS% has risen by almost 3% since to 58% but Jokic isn't hovering anywhere around that average as his TS is currently over 70%.

[1993Playoffs]

He said stats are more inflated now

They weren’t in 2017? That’s just a few years ago

[Archx]

Just mentioning Russ with Joker in the same sentence is a huge insult to Joker. What Russ was doing in those years, jumping over his teammates, shooting poorly from the field etc. Joker's vision and passing are also 2 or 3 levels above Westbrook's.

Jokic's triple double season is wildy more impressive than what Russ did. Also OKC finished 6th, 4th and 4th in western conference in his best "triple double" years. Nuggets are top3 team in the entire league at the moment.

[Slava]

Windy is a reporter and not a basketball analyst. He looks like he got swept up in the conversation that stats look inflated as pace has picked up or some other reason and he runs with it to extrapolate to wild conclusions.

[Yallbecrazy]

I absolutely agree, a good basketball player averaging a triple double is much rarer and more impressive than a great one doing the same.

[antonac]

Everyone bags on Jokic's defense but it is unquestionably better than Westbrook's that season.

I remember when Russ let the Nuggets score a game winner by leaving his man open because he was hanging under the basket waiting for a rebound.

[Dutchball97]

He said stats are more inflated now

They weren’t in 2017? That’s just a few years ago

League average PPG:
22/23 - 114.3
16/17 - 105.6

It's the 2018/19 season that saw the most significant scoring inflation with around a difference of 5 PPG comapred to the prior season. This is mostly attributed to a sudden pace increase along with a continuing increase in 3 pointers that stagnated around the 2019/20 season. Now in 22/23 we're seeing another significant jump of about 3-4 PPG but not because of pace or increased 3-point shooting as those are nearly identicaly to the couple seasons prior. The reason for the increase this season is efficiency. The 3-point efficiency isn't much of a factor here either as it hasn't changed much since the 2012/13 season despite large increases in volume. The league average FG% is at it's highest since the 1989/90 season and the league average FT% is the highest in league history though.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Windy is a reporter and not a basketball analyst. He looks like he got swept up in the conversation that stats look inflated as pace has picked up or some other reason and he runs with it to extrapolate to wild conclusions.

He’s usually pretty good at keeping his opinions to himself.

The whole MVP campaign for Russ was, do we have to give it to this guy who hasn’t really earned it? and with Jokic it’s, this guy won’t stop earning it, he keeps getting better, what do we do.

[B-easy]

Has this guy voted for Jokic any of last 2 MVPs? Seems like he has some kind of bias against Jokic.

[Murray_17]

Even compared to 2017 there is a significant difference in both scoring volume and efficiency. Teams are scoring 9 points more on average per game this season than in 2016/17. So scoring a higher amount of points now, as well as likely getting more assists, is easier and less valuable today. However, Westbrook got his triple double on exactly league average TS%. The league average TS% has risen by almost 3% since to 58% but Jokic isn't hovering anywhere around that average as his TS is currently over 70%.

Westbrook also did it on a wooping 41.5% USG which means he had the ball so much almost half of the possessions ended with a Westbrook TO, Assists or FGA.

You can argue that assists are less valuable today than they were on the 2016/2017 but a Westbrook assist in the context of how much they have the ball was also more likely than a Jokic one.

Even if you take on account the offense efficiency in the league today, Jokic is doing this on a sub 30% USG which on proportion means he had the ball on his hands at the end of a possession 2/3 of the time Westbrook did.

[kingr]

I agree. A smaller less skilled player averaging a triple double is more impressive to me.

[youngcrev]

Even compared to 2017 there is a significant difference in both scoring volume and efficiency. Teams are scoring 9 points more on average per game this season than in 2016/17. So scoring a higher amount of points now, as well as likely getting more assists, is easier and less valuable today. However, Westbrook got his triple double on exactly league average TS%. The league average TS% has risen by almost 3% since to 58% but Jokic isn't hovering anywhere around that average as his TS is currently over 70%.

Right.

Honestly, I think he was just saying it for effect as part of why he'd choose Giannis, and if you put him in the corner he'd back away from the statement by just saying it's easier accumulate impressive stats now than it was then, which is true.

Clearly the manner in which Jokic has achieved his averages is far more impressive.

[cupcakesnake]

Has this guy voted for Jokic any of last 2 MVPs? Seems like he has some kind of bias against Jokic.

He voted for Embiid last year but voted Jokic in the year before. He also voted for Russ in 2017.

[Gusto1903]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Teammates leaving Rebounds to Westbrook, and Westbrook leaving early on his on ball defensive duties, to chase rebounds is more impressive than Jokic?


we already starting with the campaign against a Threepeat MVP?

[Optms]

He said stats are more inflated now

They weren’t in 2017? That’s just a few years ago

They're more inflated than ever at the start of this year. 2017 was ages ago it feels like by comparison.

[Richard Miller]

He said stats are more inflated now

They weren’t in 2017? That’s just a few years ago

League average PPG:
22/23 - 114.3
16/17 - 105.6

It's the 2018/19 season that saw the most significant scoring inflation with around a difference of 5 PPG comapred to the prior season. This is mostly attributed to a sudden pace increase along with a continuing increase in 3 pointers that stagnated around the 2019/20 season. Now in 22/23 we're seeing another significant jump of about 3-4 PPG but not because of pace or increased 3-point shooting as those are nearly identicaly to the couple seasons prior.

Most of that doesn't apply in this case at all. Jokic rarely shoots 3s and often moves at glacial pace so whatever is league average that has nothing to do with his scoring. Also makes no difference to his rebounds, if anything negatively effects his rebounds because if everybody is hitting shots there's nothing to rebound. The only thing it can increase is his assist, but then again, both MPJ and Murray would shoot great 4, 5 years ago or now.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Even compared to 2017 there is a significant difference in both scoring volume and efficiency. Teams are scoring 9 points more on average per game this season than in 2016/17. So scoring a higher amount of points now, as well as likely getting more assists, is easier and less valuable today. However, Westbrook got his triple double on exactly league average TS%. The league average TS% has risen by almost 3% since to 58% but Jokic isn't hovering anywhere around that average as his TS is currently over 70%.

Westbrook also did it on a wooping 41.5% USG which means he had the ball so much almost half of the possessions ended with a Westbrook TO, Assists or FGA.

You can argue that assists are less valuable today than they were on the 2016/2017 but a Westbrook assist in the context of how much they have the ball was also more likely than a Jokic one.

Even if you take on account the offense efficiency in the league today, Jokic is doing this on a sub 30% USG which on proportion means he had the ball on his hands at the end of a possession 2/3 of the time Westbrook did.

Assists don’t affect USG%. It’s just your % of your team’s FGA, FTA, and TO pro-rated for minutes. So if you play the whole game and you take most of your team’s shots and FTs and make most of the TOs then your usage is freakishly high.

That’s the thing, USG% is supposed to be lower for PGs because if you dribble and/or pass the ball successfully the time counts but according to USG% you did nothing. Russ wasn’t just the last to touch the ball on OKC’s possessions, he was often the first. Man I hate his game.