Tank World Order (10.0) The Empire Strikes Back

[ItsDanger]

And again. Hasn’t been proven successful by anyone. We’re not ignoring the other variables. If anything, the other variables become more difficult to accomplish after you’ve acquired the top lottery pick because now you’re a bad team trying to claw up.

I view Raps own championship as a result of tanking/rebuilding. Required a lot of other moves especially trades. But it laid the foundation. Tanking isn't just about finishing dead last. Teams are built often with back end of the top 10. IMO, Spurs and Rockets were the only true tanking teams at beginning of the year

This is revisionist history. The largest complaint of the Colangelo years was that moves were made to just get us to the playoffs. It was the definition of treadmilling.

This championship wasn’t a product of tanking. The championship was a product of asset management and pouncing on an opportunity.

Demar(9th) + Bargs/Poeltl(1st/9th) for Kawhi,Green
#12 2013 pick for Lowry
JV(4th) + Delon (15th) for Gasol
Ross(#8) + 1st 2017 for Ibaka

That's a lot of lottery picks that turned into the championship roster. 5 of the 8 key rotation players were acquired using prior lottery picks (often a 27 win season would result in only 8th overall picks back then). Those players retain a lot of value even years afterwards just because they have the lottery reputation. Its pretty clear that championship team was build on the back of tanking/rebuilding period under BC. Obviously you need to do much more afterwards. But you don't get those trades with complete scrubs.

[Yeezus_]

Tanking to solely focus on drafting a superstar is extremely rare. Firstly, you have to get lucky in the draft just to get a high pick to increase your chances of drafting a player with superstar upside. That’s already unlikely. Then you have to factor in the likelihood of that player becoming a real superstar, which is also super unlikely.

Fans love draft picks until they are chosen, develop into a fringe star player and you have to pay that fringe star the max. Then you’re basically stuck again. This is way more likely than getting a superstar.

[Duffman100]

I view Raps own championship as a result of tanking/rebuilding. Required a lot of other moves especially trades. But it laid the foundation. Tanking isn't just about finishing dead last. Teams are built often with back end of the top 10. IMO, Spurs and Rockets were the only true tanking teams at beginning of the year

This is revisionist history. The largest complaint of the Colangelo years was that moves were made to just get us to the playoffs. It was the definition of treadmilling.

This championship wasn’t a product of tanking. The championship was a product of asset management and pouncing on an opportunity.

Demar(9th) + Bargs/Poeltl(1st/9th) for Kawhi,Green
#12 2013 pick for Lowry
JV(4th) + Delon (15th) for Gasol
Ross(#8) + 1st 2017 for Ibaka

That's a lot of lottery picks that turned into the championship roster. 5 of the 8 key rotation players were acquired using prior lottery picks (often a 27 win season would result in only 8th overall picks back then). Those players retain a lot of value even years afterwards just because they have the lottery reputation. Its pretty clear that championship team was build on the back of tanking/rebuilding period under BC. Obviously you need to do much more afterwards. But you don't get those trades with complete scrubs.

We weren’t tanking. We were just bad. Which is why we had to attach future draft capital to those “valuable lottery pick players” to get winning players back.

[Duffman100]

Tanking to solely focus on drafting a superstar is extremely rare. Firstly, you have to get lucky in the draft just to get a high pick to increase your chances of drafting a player with superstar upside. That’s already unlikely. Then you have to factor in the likelihood of that player becoming a real superstar, which is also super unlikely.

Fans love draft picks until they are chosen, develop into a fringe star player and you have to pay that fringe star the max. Then you’re basically stuck again. This is way more likely than getting a superstar.

This is just it. We aren’t even sure if Scottie is a star yet. He has all the tools but … who knows.

Which is again why I think this front office is hesitant to play the risk draft game and instead build a core to then do what they did before. Use assets to make a splash and add a proven commodity.

[720]

But I'm not calling it whatever you wanted. Having a top 10 player in the league who was drafted in the lottery so far isn't connected to being the team that drafts that player. Especially given the player movement. Especially when we're looking top 5.

So when you say "I’m sorry but drafting your own superstar is absolutely key if you look at history." It's actually pretty factually incorrect. Especially when you look at that screenshot I shared.

You say it’s not connected when I’m saying history shows us it very much IS connected. These are the following champions (this century) that were drafted in the Lotto that won with the team that drafted them.

Kobe x5, Duncan x5, Curry, x4, Wade x3, Dirk x1, Lebron x1, Giannis x1.

Curry and Wade numbers are higher because they attracted superstars to their teams (KD, and Lebron) but that only happened BECAUSE those teams already had homegrown lottery talent superstars in Curry and Wade.

The only exceptions to this are the Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, and 2004 Pistons.

That’s 20 of the 23 champions.

Lakers traded for Kobe. Essentially they got him the exact way they got Shaq. They’re the lakers.

Dirk was drafted 9th. Curry 7th. Giannis 15th. Wade had Bosh and Lebron join him in free agency. Cavs had Lebron rejoin them.

That leaves Duncan. The Spurs had one bad year because of a Robinson injury. They didn’t stealth tank … he got hurt.

These are bad examples to wanting to sell of assets and “stealth” tank for a top 3 pick.

Again, people joining Wade and Curry is a testament to why drafting a superstar talent with a lottery pick is vital to establishing that foundation. They were the reason these franchises have their rings. KD and Lebron don’t go if Curry and Wade are not there already.

Lakers traded for a Kobe who was the lottery pick at the time. This does not discredit the point at all. They traded for him. This is like if we traded OG last year for the rumoured Shaedon pick. It’s a risk but they made the calculated decision and did it. You can’t discredit it as oh well they’re the lakers.

Dirk is a lottery pick.

Take Giannis out, that still leaves 19 of the 23 past champions having homegrown superstar talent from the lottery. These 19 teams ALL had a superstar that they drafted in the lottery to help them win championships.

[Duffman100]

You say it’s not connected when I’m saying history shows us it very much IS connected. These are the following champions (this century) that were drafted in the Lotto that won with the team that drafted them.

Kobe x5, Duncan x5, Curry, x4, Wade x3, Dirk x1, Lebron x1, Giannis x1.

Curry and Wade numbers are higher because they attracted superstars to their teams (KD, and Lebron) but that only happened BECAUSE those teams already had homegrown lottery talent superstars in Curry and Wade.

The only exceptions to this are the Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, and 2004 Pistons.

That’s 20 of the 23 champions.

Lakers traded for Kobe. Essentially they got him the exact way they got Shaq. They’re the lakers.

Dirk was drafted 9th. Curry 7th. Giannis 15th. Wade had Bosh and Lebron join him in free agency. Cavs had Lebron rejoin them.

That leaves Duncan. The Spurs had one bad year because of a Robinson injury. They didn’t stealth tank … he got hurt.

These are bad examples to wanting to sell of assets and “stealth” tank for a top 3 pick.

Again, people joining Wade and Curry is a testament to why drafting a superstar talent with a lottery pick is vital to establishing that foundation.

Lakers traded for a Kobe who was the lottery pick at the time. This does not discredit the point at all. They traded for him. This is like if we traded OG last year for the rumoured Shaedon pick. It’s a risk but they made the calculated decision and did it. You can’t discredit it.

Dirk is a lottery pick.

Take Giannis out, that still leaves 19 of the 23 past champions having homegrown superstar talent from the lottery. These 19 teams ALL had a superstar that they drafted in the lottery to help them win championships.

But now we're talking different levels. Many (including yourself) were bemoaning the situation when we sat in the 6-10 range as 'not enough'. And it wasn't tanking but treadmilling.

Now you're using two players (curry and dirk) as examples as to why we should tank when those two players fell inside of your much maligned middle ground scenario.

For every Curry you draft at 7, you draft a dozen Flynns.

[ItsDanger]

This is revisionist history. The largest complaint of the Colangelo years was that moves were made to just get us to the playoffs. It was the definition of treadmilling.

This championship wasn’t a product of tanking. The championship was a product of asset management and pouncing on an opportunity.

Demar(9th) + Bargs/Poeltl(1st/9th) for Kawhi,Green
#12 2013 pick for Lowry
JV(4th) + Delon (15th) for Gasol
Ross(#8) + 1st 2017 for Ibaka

That's a lot of lottery picks that turned into the championship roster. 5 of the 8 key rotation players were acquired using prior lottery picks (often a 27 win season would result in only 8th overall picks back then). Those players retain a lot of value even years afterwards just because they have the lottery reputation. Its pretty clear that championship team was build on the back of tanking/rebuilding period under BC. Obviously you need to do much more afterwards. But you don't get those trades with complete scrubs.

We weren’t tanking. We were just bad. Which is why we had to attach future draft capital to those “valuable lottery pick players” to get winning players back.

05/06 (VC traded for nothing) and especially 10/11 (Bosh left for nothing) were absolutely tank seasons. Call it what you want but they weren't trying to be good nor were they even able to be good in any way.

[720]

Lakers traded for Kobe. Essentially they got him the exact way they got Shaq. They’re the lakers.

Dirk was drafted 9th. Curry 7th. Giannis 15th. Wade had Bosh and Lebron join him in free agency. Cavs had Lebron rejoin them.

That leaves Duncan. The Spurs had one bad year because of a Robinson injury. They didn’t stealth tank … he got hurt.

These are bad examples to wanting to sell of assets and “stealth” tank for a top 3 pick.

Again, people joining Wade and Curry is a testament to why drafting a superstar talent with a lottery pick is vital to establishing that foundation.

Lakers traded for a Kobe who was the lottery pick at the time. This does not discredit the point at all. They traded for him. This is like if we traded OG last year for the rumoured Shaedon pick. It’s a risk but they made the calculated decision and did it. You can’t discredit it.

Dirk is a lottery pick.

Take Giannis out, that still leaves 19 of the 23 past champions having homegrown superstar talent from the lottery. These 19 teams ALL had a superstar that they drafted in the lottery to help them win championships.

But now we're talking different levels. Many (including yourself) were bemoaning the situation when we sat in the 6-10 range as 'not enough'. And it wasn't tanking but treadmilling.

Now you're using two players (curry and dirk) as examples as to why we should tank when those two players fell inside of your much maligned middle ground scenario.

For every Curry you draft at 7, you draft a dozen Flynns.

I don’t know about others but I’ve been very consistent that I’d rather have the 8th pick over the 8th seed. Ive said it this year, said it the Tampa year when Danny1616 and mdenny kept asking me about it. Give me a top 10 lotto pick over treadmilling as a perennial 5-8th seed. Especially with these new odds where the top 8 all have a good shot at moving up.

[Duffman100]

Demar(9th) + Bargs/Poeltl(1st/9th) for Kawhi,Green
#12 2013 pick for Lowry
JV(4th) + Delon (15th) for Gasol
Ross(#8) + 1st 2017 for Ibaka

That's a lot of lottery picks that turned into the championship roster. 5 of the 8 key rotation players were acquired using prior lottery picks (often a 27 win season would result in only 8th overall picks back then). Those players retain a lot of value even years afterwards just because they have the lottery reputation. Its pretty clear that championship team was build on the back of tanking/rebuilding period under BC. Obviously you need to do much more afterwards. But you don't get those trades with complete scrubs.

We weren’t tanking. We were just bad. Which is why we had to attach future draft capital to those “valuable lottery pick players” to get winning players back.

05/06 (VC traded for nothing) and especially 10/11 (Bosh left for nothing) were absolutely tank seasons. Call it what you want but they weren't trying to be good nor were they even able to be good in any way.

So we tanked and 10-15 years later saw the benefit. No.

Colangelo came in and immediately signed the euros, drafted Bargnani and tried to win. You're again trying to rewrite what happened to support that tank works. And it's just not accurate.

[ItsDanger]

We weren’t tanking. We were just bad. Which is why we had to attach future draft capital to those “valuable lottery pick players” to get winning players back.

05/06 (VC traded for nothing) and especially 10/11 (Bosh left for nothing) were absolutely tank seasons. Call it what you want but they weren't trying to be good nor were they even able to be good in any way.

So we tanked and 10-15 years later saw the benefit. No.

Colangelo came in and immediately signed the euros, drafted Bargnani and tried to win. You're again trying to rewrite what happened to support that tank works. And it's just not accurate.

I'm providing evidence that accumulating lottery picks can lead to a championship. That is the counter argument presented here essentially. Given the lottery odds in NBA currently, outright finishing last isn't a guarantee anyways. Finishing 6th-10th last can allow a team to accumulate talent. Better than the treadmill option. Your definition of tanking is ripping apart team, finish dead last (22/23 Spurs). My definition is accumulating best talent possible via draft, which is the lottery as proven by empirical data.

[Duffman100]

Again, people joining Wade and Curry is a testament to why drafting a superstar talent with a lottery pick is vital to establishing that foundation.

Lakers traded for a Kobe who was the lottery pick at the time. This does not discredit the point at all. They traded for him. This is like if we traded OG last year for the rumoured Shaedon pick. It’s a risk but they made the calculated decision and did it. You can’t discredit it.

Dirk is a lottery pick.

Take Giannis out, that still leaves 19 of the 23 past champions having homegrown superstar talent from the lottery. These 19 teams ALL had a superstar that they drafted in the lottery to help them win championships.

But now we're talking different levels. Many (including yourself) were bemoaning the situation when we sat in the 6-10 range as 'not enough'. And it wasn't tanking but treadmilling.

Now you're using two players (curry and dirk) as examples as to why we should tank when those two players fell inside of your much maligned middle ground scenario.

For every Curry you draft at 7, you draft a dozen Flynns.

I don’t know about others but I’ve been very consistent that I’d rather have the 8th pick over the 8th seed. Ive said it this year, said it the Tampa year when Danny1616 and mdenny kept asking me about it. Give me a top 10 lotto pick over treadmilling as a perennial 5-8th seed. Especially with these new odds where the top 8 all have a good shot at moving up.

Okay, if that's true (and I honestly believe you've been pushing for a top 3, 'stealth tank') which really wasn't possible.

How many top 20 players of all time have been picked in the 6-15 range. And how many MEH players that have ultimately led to nothing have been picked in that range. The %s are staggering.

You are much more likely to draft a dud to put next to Barnes. Numbers and history prove that.

Given the incredible rise in player movement, I can understand why management is much more optimistic in buying a star with their aggregated assets than counting on a rolling of the dice in hopes of hitting a star.

[Duffman100]

05/06 (VC traded for nothing) and especially 10/11 (Bosh left for nothing) were absolutely tank seasons. Call it what you want but they weren't trying to be good nor were they even able to be good in any way.

So we tanked and 10-15 years later saw the benefit. No.

Colangelo came in and immediately signed the euros, drafted Bargnani and tried to win. You're again trying to rewrite what happened to support that tank works. And it's just not accurate.

I'm providing evidence that accumulating lottery picks can lead to a championship. That is the counter argument presented here essentially. Given the lottery odds in NBA currently, outright finishing last isn't a guarantee anyways. Finishing 6th-10th last can allow a team to accumulate talent. Better than the treadmill option. Your definition of tanking is ripping apart team, finish dead last (22/23 Spurs). My definition is accumulating best talent possible via draft, which is the lottery as proven by empirical data.

You're not providing evidence, you're rewriting what the team strategy was at the time. At every point from the Bargnani draft, BC was attempting to get us into the first round. He dealt assets, he made bad moves, he made bad signings. He wasn't attempting to accumulate assets to make eventually sell to a championship roster.

It wasn't until Masai came and had smarter asset management and was able to balance the team that we started to actually win.

[ItsDanger]

So we tanked and 10-15 years later saw the benefit. No.

Colangelo came in and immediately signed the euros, drafted Bargnani and tried to win. You're again trying to rewrite what happened to support that tank works. And it's just not accurate.

I'm providing evidence that accumulating lottery picks can lead to a championship. That is the counter argument presented here essentially. Given the lottery odds in NBA currently, outright finishing last isn't a guarantee anyways. Finishing 6th-10th last can allow a team to accumulate talent. Better than the treadmill option. Your definition of tanking is ripping apart team, finish dead last (22/23 Spurs). My definition is accumulating best talent possible via draft, which is the lottery as proven by empirical data.

You're not providing evidence, you're rewriting what the team strategy was at the time. At every point from the Bargnani draft, BC was attempting to get us into the first round. He dealt assets, he made bad moves, he made bad signings. He wasn't attempting to accumulate assets to make eventually sell to a championship roster.

It wasn't until Masai came and had smarter asset management and was able to balance the team that we started to actually win.

Even 11/12 season with 23-43 record tied for 7th worst with GS. 4 less wins, Raps would have been 2nd worst in the entire league. We ended up with Ross, a warning to tank properly. BC was just a good salesman I guess.

[Duffman100]

I'm providing evidence that accumulating lottery picks can lead to a championship. That is the counter argument presented here essentially. Given the lottery odds in NBA currently, outright finishing last isn't a guarantee anyways. Finishing 6th-10th last can allow a team to accumulate talent. Better than the treadmill option. Your definition of tanking is ripping apart team, finish dead last (22/23 Spurs). My definition is accumulating best talent possible via draft, which is the lottery as proven by empirical data.

You're not providing evidence, you're rewriting what the team strategy was at the time. At every point from the Bargnani draft, BC was attempting to get us into the first round. He dealt assets, he made bad moves, he made bad signings. He wasn't attempting to accumulate assets to make eventually sell to a championship roster.

It wasn't until Masai came and had smarter asset management and was able to balance the team that we started to actually win.

Even 11/12 season with 23-43 record tied for 7th worst with GS. 4 less wins, Raps would have been 2nd worst in the entire league. We ended up with Ross, a warning to tank properly. BC was just a good salesman I guess.

True, we could have had MKG instead. Or Harrison Barnes, or Dion Waiters, or Thomas Robinson...

Let's look at the top 10 picks in that draft. Have any of those teams succeeded? Nope.

That's a true indictment to not tank at all.

[Los_29]

I view Raps own championship as a result of tanking/rebuilding. Required a lot of other moves especially trades. But it laid the foundation. Tanking isn't just about finishing dead last. Teams are built often with back end of the top 10. IMO, Spurs and Rockets were the only true tanking teams at beginning of the year

This is revisionist history. The largest complaint of the Colangelo years was that moves were made to just get us to the playoffs. It was the definition of treadmilling.

This championship wasn’t a product of tanking. The championship was a product of asset management and pouncing on an opportunity.

Demar(9th) + Bargs/Poeltl(1st/9th) for Kawhi,Green
#12 2013 pick for Lowry
JV(4th) + Delon (15th) for Gasol
Ross(#8) + 1st 2017 for Ibaka

That's a lot of lottery picks that turned into the championship roster. 5 of the 8 key rotation players were acquired using prior lottery picks (often a 27 win season would result in only 8th overall picks back then). Those players retain a lot of value even years afterwards just because they have the lottery reputation. Its pretty clear that championship team was build on the back of tanking/rebuilding period under BC. Obviously you need to do much more afterwards. But you don't get those trades with complete scrubs.

A lot of errors in this post. You need to check some of your numbers. Poeltl wasn't even drafted with our pick. Lowry was acquired using a FRP. At the time, it was not a lottery pick. Demar and Ross were drafted in the late lottery. Delon was drafted 20th not 15th. JV was drafted 5th not 4th. Bargnani was a negative asset when we dealt him.

We never tanked. We got Demar at the same time we had Chris Bosh. We got JV a year after losing Bosh. And Memphis didn't trade Gasol because they wanted JV. They ended up trading him two years later for a poo poo platter. A lot of those guys were dealt to simply make salaries match. Ross only started 55 games with the Magic. He was a bench player. Orlando cared much more about the pick they got back than about a reserve player in Ross.

[ItsDanger]

This is revisionist history. The largest complaint of the Colangelo years was that moves were made to just get us to the playoffs. It was the definition of treadmilling.

This championship wasn’t a product of tanking. The championship was a product of asset management and pouncing on an opportunity.

Demar(9th) + Bargs/Poeltl(1st/9th) for Kawhi,Green
#12 2013 pick for Lowry
JV(4th) + Delon (15th) for Gasol
Ross(#8) + 1st 2017 for Ibaka

That's a lot of lottery picks that turned into the championship roster. 5 of the 8 key rotation players were acquired using prior lottery picks (often a 27 win season would result in only 8th overall picks back then). Those players retain a lot of value even years afterwards just because they have the lottery reputation. Its pretty clear that championship team was build on the back of tanking/rebuilding period under BC. Obviously you need to do much more afterwards. But you don't get those trades with complete scrubs.

A lot of errors in this post. You need to check some of your numbers. Poeltl wasn't even drafted with our pick. Lowry was acquired using a FRP. At the time, it was not a lottery pick. Demar and Ross were drafted in the late lottery. Delon was drafted 20th not 15th. JV was drafted 5th not 4th. Bargnani was a negative asset when we dealt him.

We never tanked. We got Demar at the same time we had Chris Bosh. We got JV a year after losing Bosh. And Memphis didn't trade Gasol because they wanted JV. They ended up trading him two years later for a poo poo platter. A lot of those guys were dealt to simply make salaries match. Ross only started 55 games with the Magic. He was a bench player. Orlando cared much more about the pick they got back than about a reserve player in Ross.

Poeltl was drafted with the 1st that was acquired by trading Bargs. You don't get that pick without having a player with 1st overall reputation or at least very high selection given his struggles.

[720]

But now we're talking different levels. Many (including yourself) were bemoaning the situation when we sat in the 6-10 range as 'not enough'. And it wasn't tanking but treadmilling.

Now you're using two players (curry and dirk) as examples as to why we should tank when those two players fell inside of your much maligned middle ground scenario.

For every Curry you draft at 7, you draft a dozen Flynns.

I don’t know about others but I’ve been very consistent that I’d rather have the 8th pick over the 8th seed. Ive said it this year, said it the Tampa year when Danny1616 and mdenny kept asking me about it. Give me a top 10 lotto pick over treadmilling as a perennial 5-8th seed. Especially with these new odds where the top 8 all have a good shot at moving up.

Okay, if that's true (and I honestly believe you've been pushing for a top 3, 'stealth tank') which really wasn't possible.

How many top 20 players of all time have been picked in the 6-15 range. And how many MEH players that have ultimately led to nothing have been picked in that range. The %s are staggering.

You are much more likely to draft a dud to put next to Barnes. Numbers and history prove that.

Given the incredible rise in player movement, I can understand why management is much more optimistic in buying a star with their aggregated assets than counting on a rolling of the dice in hopes of hitting a star.

.
I don’t know how you can think that when I’ve never even suggested we could out lose Houston, Detroit, etc. That was never an option. Top 4 was only possible by moving up with the 6-8 odds. Since top 4 proper wasn’t realistic.


I know a couple years ago I personally looked back at every MVP ever in the league since the lottery system was implemented, only a handful of those players ever were non lottery picks. I can’t find it now but it was basically Jokic, Giannis, Moses Malone, and Steve Nash. I might have missed someone else but pretty sure that’s it. Everyone else were lotto picks.

Picking higher results in better talent. I forgot who but someone broke the numbers down and basically concluded that top 14 has like a 25 percent chance of getting a Allstar player. After the top 8-9 the chances of getting a future allstar drops dramatically.

[Duffman100]

I don’t know about others but I’ve been very consistent that I’d rather have the 8th pick over the 8th seed. Ive said it this year, said it the Tampa year when Danny1616 and mdenny kept asking me about it. Give me a top 10 lotto pick over treadmilling as a perennial 5-8th seed. Especially with these new odds where the top 8 all have a good shot at moving up.

Okay, if that's true (and I honestly believe you've been pushing for a top 3, 'stealth tank') which really wasn't possible.

How many top 20 players of all time have been picked in the 6-15 range. And how many MEH players that have ultimately led to nothing have been picked in that range. The %s are staggering.

You are much more likely to draft a dud to put next to Barnes. Numbers and history prove that.

Given the incredible rise in player movement, I can understand why management is much more optimistic in buying a star with their aggregated assets than counting on a rolling of the dice in hopes of hitting a star.

.
I don’t know how you can think that when I’ve never even suggested we could out lose Houston, Detroit, etc. That was never an option. Top 4 was only possible by moving up with the 6-8 odds. Since top 4 proper wasn’t realistic.


I know a couple years ago I personally looked back at every MVP ever in the league since the lottery system was implemented, only a handful of those players ever were non lottery picks. I can’t find it now but it was basically Jokic, Giannis, Moses Malone, and Steve Nash. I might have missed someone else but pretty sure that’s it. Everyone else were lotto picks.

Picking higher results in better talent. I forgot who but someone broke the numbers down and basically concluded that top 14 has like a 25 percent chance of getting a Allstar player. After the top 8-9 the chances of getting a future allstar drops dramatically.

So you have a 25% chance of getting an all-star player. What's the % chance you get an MVP? What's the % chance you get a top 20 player of all time? Those are the guys you're referencing in drafting to win a title. Not the all-stars.

[Duffman100]

I'd be on board with team tank if there was evidence that it worked. There is just simply no evidence that tanking, stealth tanking, one season tanking, etc working to such a % degree that it's the SURE FIRE way to win. In fact it's shown time and time again to not really leading to winning at all.

[720]

Okay, if that's true (and I honestly believe you've been pushing for a top 3, 'stealth tank') which really wasn't possible.

How many top 20 players of all time have been picked in the 6-15 range. And how many MEH players that have ultimately led to nothing have been picked in that range. The %s are staggering.

You are much more likely to draft a dud to put next to Barnes. Numbers and history prove that.

Given the incredible rise in player movement, I can understand why management is much more optimistic in buying a star with their aggregated assets than counting on a rolling of the dice in hopes of hitting a star.

.
I don’t know how you can think that when I’ve never even suggested we could out lose Houston, Detroit, etc. That was never an option. Top 4 was only possible by moving up with the 6-8 odds. Since top 4 proper wasn’t realistic.


I know a couple years ago I personally looked back at every MVP ever in the league since the lottery system was implemented, only a handful of those players ever were non lottery picks. I can’t find it now but it was basically Jokic, Giannis, Moses Malone, and Steve Nash. I might have missed someone else but pretty sure that’s it. Everyone else were lotto picks.

Picking higher results in better talent. I forgot who but someone broke the numbers down and basically concluded that top 14 has like a 25 percent chance of getting a Allstar player. After the top 8-9 the chances of getting a future allstar drops dramatically.

So you have a 25% chance of getting an all-star player. What's the % chance you get an MVP? What's the % chance you get a top 20 player of all time? Those are the guys you're referencing in drafting to win a title. Not the all-stars.

I don’t know why that matters to you when it’s all but guaranteed that getting an MVP player is much higher through the lottery than trading for one. Also, I found the source for the stat I’ll post the graphs later. It’s 25 percent to get an Allstar within the top 14 and 7 percent outside of the top 14. I’m not great at math but someone can extrapolate from those figures what the chances of getting a goat is from those odds.

To me even there are plenty of players that aren’t “top 20 all time” that easily could have been if they were in a better situation. McGrady types. To me what’s more important it top 5-8 player in any given season.