Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[70sFan]

I don't think people ignore Russell, they're aware that he's one of the greatest of all time. Heck, it was hard to ignore him because before he sadly passed away. He was almost always there year after year at just about every nba legendary moment, championship celebration, all star game, etc. With that being said, as good as he was for his Celtics in his time, I just don't see him as the greatest Center of all time let alone greatest basketball player. His 11 championships are great, but I'll take the 6 Jordan absolutely led his team to over that.

Plus Jordan was just the overall better player if you ask me. Russell is one of the greatest defensive anchors of all time, but with MJ you got elite work on both ends. Not to say Russell was a liability offensively, but he wasn't very elite in comparison either.

Russell led his team to all of his rings, which are double of Jordan's in quantity - even if you want to make a case that on average it was harder to win it all in 1990s (which is a reasonable, but questionable take).

I don't really think you can say that Jordan was a better player simply because he was a good defender. Russell was a more impactful defensive player than Jordan, significantly more. Prime Jordan was a good defender of course, great one for his position but his defense doesn't change the whole picture. Bulls were fine without Jordan defensively, while Celtics collapsed without Russell on defense.

It's fair to say that you prefer Jordan, but Russell has more team success and at least comparable individual dominance, so we don't really need to wait for someone matching Jordan in both aspects.

I mean. What we currently have suggests Russell's individual dominance outclasses, no?

What we have is limited even for Jordan, let alone Russell, that's why we can't say it for certain.

[OhayoKD]

Russell led his team to all of his rings, which are double of Jordan's in quantity - even if you want to make a case that on average it was harder to win it all in 1990s (which is a reasonable, but questionable take).

I don't really think you can say that Jordan was a better player simply because he was a good defender. Russell was a more impactful defensive player than Jordan, significantly more. Prime Jordan was a good defender of course, great one for his position but his defense doesn't change the whole picture. Bulls were fine without Jordan defensively, while Celtics collapsed without Russell on defense.

It's fair to say that you prefer Jordan, but Russell has more team success and at least comparable individual dominance, so we don't really need to wait for someone matching Jordan in both aspects.

I mean. What we currently have suggests Russell's individual dominance outclasses, no?

What we have is limited even for Jordan, let alone Russell, that's why we can't say it for certain.

Fair enough.

[dcstanley]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't know it was by such a large margin

[Goomba3666]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

[Gregoire]

PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

I think you're going too far naming names, and I don't think everyone on the list meets the criteria you are assigning. But, I do think you are right that the PC board has been toxic for awhile, and it hard to enjoy/post on. There are definitely a group of LeBron superfans that are toxically aggressive, and it gets tiring (and then some Jordan guys respond and eventually get toxic as well). It's fine for anyone to post LeBron GOAT takes, LeBron is obviously a great GOAT choice... just don't be toxic about it, especially when criticizing others' GOAT picks. I used to lurk the PC Board a decent amount, and it was like an epic back and forth discussion about NBA history/greats with high quality non-toxic arguments. I miss those days, I learned a lot.

There are still gem posters there (and great LeBron takes/arguments) but they have become more the exception rather than the rule recently as the toxic posters have dominated discussions. I also often wonder if someone is multiple people on there.

Last, while I love geeking on basketball stats, I find that there is now a mistake of being over-reliant on stats on the PC board. Don't get me wrong, I am not a stat hater; I played poker for a living for 3 years, I run a company and my job involves using statistics to predict demand of products I sell, I love stats and use them all the time (and I'm not saying this for cred, more as explaining I'm not a creaky old stat hater). Stats help us determine a lot, but they should never be the end all in a discussion.

Because no player plays with identical teammates, identical opponents, in identical eras, or within identical rulesets, one should never rely on just impact stats to decide their lists. Folks will say they're factoring more in, but I see the discussions -- someone will supply their evaluation of why a particular player is better, and get an angry reply that explains why they are wrong that is only because of stats (which is a mis-use of stats -- and if you are one of the gems I referenced above, this isn't you).

Yea, maybe I was rude, but it became ridiculous… There are some clever and balanced LeBron fans too, but its rare at PC Board…
About this comparison: When MJ was motivated and willing to do whatever it takes to win basketball matches, he has shown the level of basketball he can play. Consistently every game for months and sometimes years. Thats where he has proven himself.

LeBron is clearly deeply insecure about himself (comparing to MJ at first) demonstrated by his unability to let go and move on with his life. He still has this obsessive need to keep proving himself with seasons, points, records. Nothing will ever be enough for him. Especially now when he likely will not win another title.

So LeBron will play long enough to score gazzilion points. Jordan ended his career when he wanted and hence never reached that landmark. Doesnt make him any less competent player when he was truly hungry and motivated.

[NbaAllDay]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

[Cmalic2]

Lebron has been marketed since high school and still didnt overcome it. The guy that wears "check my stats" shirt falls short on pretty much every advanced stat there is in the nba.

it'll never change tbh, MJ is untouchable

Nobody is untouchable. The bar is insanely high though, and Lebron didn't clear it.

Someone some day will probably do it, but it may be in the distant future.

Lebron has and he's done it convincingly. He just isn't capable of overcoming 30+ years of marketing.

This shouldn't surprise anyone; LeBron came closer than anyone else to dethroning the GOAT, but even sustained marketing and press onslaughts weren't enough to sway public opinion at-large. He'll have to settle for top-three status alongside Kareem, which is incredible and amazing. Imagine being at-worst the third-best person to ever do something.

He won't keep his top 3. Lebron is currently enjoying recency bias. He will drop further down after retirement, like what happened to Kobe.

you lebron haters are utterly clueless.

[Goomba3666]

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

Lol @ smoked

No way I'm going stat for stat with Bron stans. You guys LIVE in basketballrefence.com. You guys are built different. Not gonna lie.

[dcstanley]

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

the guy thinks responding to a post two pages back requires a ton of effort. Meanwhile, he has like double or triple the amount of posts as I do in this thread

[NbaAllDay]

PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

I think you're going too far naming names, and I don't think everyone on the list meets the criteria you are assigning. But, I do think you are right that the PC board has been toxic for awhile, and it hard to enjoy/post on. There are definitely a group of LeBron superfans that are toxically aggressive, and it gets tiring (and then some Jordan guys respond and eventually get toxic as well). It's fine for anyone to post LeBron GOAT takes, LeBron is obviously a great GOAT choice... just don't be toxic about it, especially when criticizing others' GOAT picks. I used to lurk the PC Board a decent amount, and it was like an epic back and forth discussion about NBA history/greats with high quality non-toxic arguments. I miss those days, I learned a lot.

There are still gem posters there (and great LeBron takes/arguments) but they have become more the exception rather than the rule recently as the toxic posters have dominated discussions. I also often wonder if someone is multiple people on there.

Last, while I love geeking on basketball stats, I find that there is now a mistake of being over-reliant on stats on the PC board. Don't get me wrong, I am not a stat hater; I played poker for a living for 3 years, I run a company and my job involves using statistics to predict demand of products I sell, I love stats and use them all the time (and I'm not saying this for cred, more as explaining I'm not a creaky old stat hater). Stats help us determine a lot, but they should never be the end all in a discussion.

Because no player plays with identical teammates, identical opponents, in identical eras, or within identical rulesets, one should never rely on just impact stats to decide their lists. Folks will say they're factoring more in, but I see the discussions -- someone will supply their evaluation of why a particular player is better, and get an angry reply that explains why they are wrong that is only because of stats (which is a mis-use of stats -- and if you are one of the gems I referenced above, this isn't you).

Yea, maybe I was rude, but it became ridiculous… There are some clever and balanced LeBron fans too, but its rare at PC Board…
About this comparison: When MJ was motivated and willing to do whatever it takes to win basketball matches, he has shown the level of basketball he can play. Consistently every game for months and sometimes years. Thats where he has proven himself.

LeBron is clearly deeply insecure about himself (comparing to MJ at first) demonstrated by his unability to let go and move on with his life. He still has this obsessive need to keep proving himself with seasons, points, records. Nothing will ever be enough for him. Especially now when he likely will not win another title.

So LeBron will play long enough to score gazzilion points. Jordan ended his career when he wanted and hence never reached that landmark. Doesnt make him any less competent player when he was truly hungry and motivated.

These arguments are so bland I don't know how you write it without laughing. You are basically saying that MJ wasn't always hungry but when he was hungry and motivated oh boy he was the best. So MJ didn't always try? MJ willed his team to 6 rings but lets forget the other 12 seasons? Did he just not.care then? Surely his will prevails? Or do we give him context and say his team.werent good enough.



Lebron however doesn't deserve context. He is obsessive about the game (something people always praise MJ for) yet that's a problem under your narrative because it's about him. I'm sure MJs drive wasn't about him either. He only cared.for his team right?

[ReddoverKobe]

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

The Jordan cult is insane.

[dcstanley]

Lebron has been marketed since high school and still didnt overcome it. The guy that wears "check my stats" shirt falls short on pretty much every advanced stat there is in the nba.

Nobody is untouchable. The bar is insanely high though, and Lebron didn't clear it.

Someone some day will probably do it, but it may be in the distant future.

Lebron has and he's done it convincingly. He just isn't capable of overcoming 30+ years of marketing.

He won't keep his top 3. Lebron is currently enjoying recency bias. He will drop further down after retirement, like what happened to Kobe.

you lebron haters are utterly clueless.

why don't you share some of these advanced stats

[The4thHorseman]

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

It's never good when an alleged NBA fan thinks making the All-Star game is better than making All-NBA/Defensive.

[Cmalic2]

ok:

Highest Win Share per 48:
MJ .2505
David Robinson .2502
Wilt: .2480
Jokic: .2462

Highest Value over Replacement PLayers ever per season. notice that the top 6 greatest seasons of all time under VORP belong to MJ
MJ: 12.47 (87-88)
LBJ: 11.79 (08-09)
MJ: 11.43 (88-89)
Robinson: 11.36 (93-94)
MJ: 10.77
MJ. 10.61
Mj. 10.58
LBJ 10.34
Julius: 10.30
MJ. 10.24

PER: all time leader
MJ: 27.91
Jokic 27.55
LBJ 27.27

All time box plus/minus
Jokic: 9.34
MJ 9.21
LBJ 8.78

Lebron has been marketed since high school and still didnt overcome it. The guy that wears "check my stats" shirt falls short on pretty much every advanced stat there is in the nba.

Lebron has and he's done it convincingly. He just isn't capable of overcoming 30+ years of marketing.


you lebron haters are utterly clueless.

why don't you share some of these advanced stats

[Gregoire]

Lol. Did this poster make the Lebron soldier roster?

I have to give it to you though. I posted that days ago and dude went DEEPER into the archives. Bron stans are committed af Bravo

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

The Jordan cult is insane.

Lebron cult here is waaaaaay waaaay more insane.

[Gregoire]

When your own post gets smoked and you can't defend it, may as well just attack the poster right?

The Jordan cult is insane.

Lebron cult here (and in PC especially) is waaaaaay waaaay more insane. its like a sect

[Dutchball97]

Russell led his team to all of his rings, which are double of Jordan's in quantity - even if you want to make a case that on average it was harder to win it all in 1990s (which is a reasonable, but questionable take).

I don't really think you can say that Jordan was a better player simply because he was a good defender. Russell was a more impactful defensive player than Jordan, significantly more. Prime Jordan was a good defender of course, great one for his position but his defense doesn't change the whole picture. Bulls were fine without Jordan defensively, while Celtics collapsed without Russell on defense.

It's fair to say that you prefer Jordan, but Russell has more team success and at least comparable individual dominance, so we don't really need to wait for someone matching Jordan in both aspects.

I mean. What we currently have suggests Russell's individual dominance outclasses, no?

What we have is limited even for Jordan, let alone Russell, that's why we can't say it for certain.

I wonder if it'll ever become possible for more predictive modern stats like EPM, LEBRON or even something like RAPM to be applied to earlier eras. I guess the biggest obstacle is a lack of footage, right?

[flow]

You're running a team competing in a one time, best of 7 series to save your life. Win and you live, lose and you don't. In drafting your team, you can take either Jordan or Lebron with your first pick.

Who are you taking?

There's one answer. Jordan. That's why he's the goat.

.

[70sFan]

You're running a team competing in a one time, best of 7 series to save your life. Win and you live, lose and you don't. In drafting your team, you can take either Jordan or Lebron with the first pick.

Who are you taking?

There's one answer. Bill Russell. That's why he's the goat.

.

I corrected it for you

[70sFan]

I mean. What we currently have suggests Russell's individual dominance outclasses, no?

What we have is limited even for Jordan, let alone Russell, that's why we can't say it for certain.

I wonder if it'll ever become possible for more predictive modern stats like EPM, LEBRON or even something like RAPM to be applied to earlier eras. I guess the biggest obstacle is a lack of footage, right?

Yes, lack of footage is always the problem unfortunately.