Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

JordansBulls · Post #401 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:58 am

Curry who came in after Lebron has as many titles and beat Lebron head to head 3 times. Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as has titles. He stacked the deck multiple times and a guy in his era has as many titles as him who is a superstar. Lebron starting in 2011 started stacking the deck and Curry has as many titles as him. Lebron also couldn't even make the play in with prime Russell Westbrook who is the all time leader in Triple Doubles and won league MVP. Russell Westbrook made the playoffs with all other stars in his career when that star played at least half the season and Westbrook played with 2 stars in Lebron and Anthony Davis. Also had Melo and Dwight Howard as well. Lebron also won 2 bronze medals for America and also lost with HCA 3x in a row to guys who were known to be career losers in Dwight Howard, Dirk and KG. Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.
That's what Dirk did, Hakeem did better than that, as did Isiah Thomas who are lesser players.
Jordan never won bronze medal, never lost with HCA and turned a franchise that never won into a dynasty and 25 years later that franchise is still trash. Players who are GOATS in Sports dominate there era by stats and titles. And the titles more or less for franchises they were drafted to. These are facts not feelings. Despite that Lebron is still Mount Rushmore in NBA History.

Were 2nd in odds last year and missed the play in https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html

They also were ahead of Memphis and Dallas this year https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_preseason_odds.html

Utah was last in 2023 and still ahead of the Lakers.

Hoop Heavy · Post #402 » by **Hoop Heavy** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:10 am

GSWFan1994 wrote:
SNPA wrote:Casuals shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Nor should they be allowed to buy tickets near the floor. Both of these should be reserved for us (most of us anyhow).

And who determines who is a "casual"?

Let me guess... you?

NO! NO! on page 1458 of the BIG BOOK OF RULES, in Section 1, Subsection C, paragraph 4, it clearly states. If I choose to subsume responsibility for a matter such as this, then I am the final arbiter. 8-)

Any questions? :noway:

michaelm · Post #403 » by **michaelm** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:26 am

JordansBulls wrote:Curry who came in after Lebron has as many titles and beat Lebron head to head 3 times. Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as has titles. He stacked the deck multiple times and a guy in his era has as many titles as him who is a superstar. Lebron starting in 2011 started stacking the deck and Curry has as many titles as him. Lebron also couldn't even make the play in with prime Russell Westbrook who is the all time leader in Triple Doubles and won league MVP. Russell Westbrook made the playoffs with all other stars in his career when that star played at least half the season and Westbrook played with 2 stars in Lebron and Anthony Davis. Also had Melo and Dwight Howard as well. Lebron also won 2 bronze medals for America and also lost with HCA 3x in a row to guys who were known to be career losers in Dwight Howard, Dirk and KG. Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.
That's what Dirk did, Hakeem did better than that, as did Isiah Thomas who are lesser players.
Jordan never won bronze medal, never lost with HCA and turned a franchise that never won into a dynasty and 25 years later that franchise is still trash. Players who are GOATS in Sports dominate there era by stats and titles. And the titles more or less for franchises they were drafted to. These are facts not feelings. Despite that Lebron is still Mount Rushmore in NBA History.

Were 2nd in odds last year and missed the play in https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html

They also were ahead of Memphis and Dallas this year https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_preseason_odds.html

Utah was last in 2023 and still ahead of the Lakers.

Certainly don’t agree with all of this, but it is plainly factual that while the number of titles won by the franchises which drafted Jordan and LeBron without them is the same, ie none, the number of titles which teams led by Jordan and LeBron won for those franchises is rather different, six and one obviously. And as you say while a bigger marked, the Bulls are not a fabled franchise outside of Jordan and by no means a favoured FA destination etc.

Post #404 » by **infinite11285** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:30 am

JordansBulls wrote:Curry who came in after Lebron has as many titles and beat Lebron head to head 3 times. Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as has titles. He stacked the deck multiple times and a guy in his era has as many titles as him who is a superstar. Lebron starting in 2011 started stacking the deck and Curry has as many titles as him. Lebron also couldn't even make the play in with prime Russell Westbrook who is the all time leader in Triple Doubles and won league MVP. Russell Westbrook made the playoffs with all other stars in his career when that star played at least half the season and Westbrook played with 2 stars in Lebron and Anthony Davis. Also had Melo and Dwight Howard as well. Lebron also won 2 bronze medals for America and also lost with HCA 3x in a row to guys who were known to be career losers in Dwight Howard, Dirk and KG. Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.
That's what Dirk did, Hakeem did better than that, as did Isiah Thomas who are lesser players.
Jordan never won bronze medal, never lost with HCA and turned a franchise that never won into a dynasty and 25 years later that franchise is still trash. Players who are GOATS in Sports dominate there era by stats and titles. And the titles more or less for franchises they were drafted to. These are facts not feelings. Despite that Lebron is still Mount Rushmore in NBA History.

Were 2nd in odds last year and missed the play in https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html

They also were ahead of Memphis and Dallas this year https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_preseason_odds.html

Utah was last in 2023 and still ahead of the Lakers.

Please don't copy/paste the same post in multiple threads.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2202865&start=320#p104451934

JordansBulls · Post #405 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:33 am

infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Curry who came in after Lebron has as many titles and beat Lebron head to head 3 times. Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as has titles. He stacked the deck multiple times and a guy in his era has as many titles as him who is a superstar. Lebron starting in 2011 started stacking the deck and Curry has as many titles as him. Lebron also couldn't even make the play in with prime Russell Westbrook who is the all time leader in Triple Doubles and won league MVP. Russell Westbrook made the playoffs with all other stars in his career when that star played at least half the season and Westbrook played with 2 stars in Lebron and Anthony Davis. Also had Melo and Dwight Howard as well. Lebron also won 2 bronze medals for America and also lost with HCA 3x in a row to guys who were known to be career losers in Dwight Howard, Dirk and KG. Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.
That's what Dirk did, Hakeem did better than that, as did Isiah Thomas who are lesser players.
Jordan never won bronze medal, never lost with HCA and turned a franchise that never won into a dynasty and 25 years later that franchise is still trash. Players who are GOATS in Sports dominate there era by stats and titles. And the titles more or less for franchises they were drafted to. These are facts not feelings. Despite that Lebron is still Mount Rushmore in NBA History.

Were 2nd in odds last year and missed the play in https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html

They also were ahead of Memphis and Dallas this year https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_preseason_odds.html

Utah was last in 2023 and still ahead of the Lakers.

Please don't copy/paste the same post in multiple threads.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2202865&start=320#p104451934

All I showed and proved were facts. not personal thoughts.

SNPA · Post #406 » by **SNPA** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:42 am

Hoop Heavy wrote:
GSWFan1994 wrote:
SNPA wrote:Casuals shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Nor should they be allowed to buy tickets near the floor. Both of these should be reserved for us (most of us anyhow).

And who determines who is a "casual"?

Let me guess... you?

NO! NO! of page 1458 of the BIG BOOK OF RULES, in Section 1, Subsection C, paragraph 4, it clearly states. If I choose to subsume responsibility for a matter such as this, then I am the final arbiter.

Any questions?

The responses in this thread to this post have been hilarious.

Post #407 » by **infinite11285** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:44 am

JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Curry who came in after Lebron has as many titles and beat Lebron head to head 3 times. Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as has titles. He stacked the deck multiple times and a guy in his era has as many titles as him who is a superstar. Lebron starting in 2011 started stacking the deck and Curry has as many titles as him. Lebron also couldn't even make the play in with prime Russell Westbrook who is the all time leader in Triple Doubles and won league MVP. Russell Westbrook made the playoffs with all other stars in his career when that star played at least half the season and Westbrook played with 2 stars in Lebron and Anthony Davis. Also had Melo and Dwight Howard as well. Lebron also won 2 bronze medals for America and also lost with HCA 3x in a row to guys who were known to be career losers in Dwight Howard, Dirk and KG. Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.
That's what Dirk did, Hakeem did better than that, as did Isiah Thomas who are lesser players.
Jordan never won bronze medal, never lost with HCA and turned a franchise that never won into a dynasty and 25 years later that franchise is still trash. Players who are GOATS in Sports dominate there era by stats and titles. And the titles more or less for franchises they were drafted to. These are facts not feelings. Despite that Lebron is still Mount Rushmore in NBA History.

Were 2nd in odds last year and missed the play in https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html

They also were ahead of Memphis and Dallas this year https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_preseason_odds.html

Utah was last in 2023 and still ahead of the Lakers.

Please don't copy/paste the same post in multiple threads.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2202865&start=320#p104451934

All I showed and proved were facts. not personal thoughts.

See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

JordansBulls · Post #408 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:52 am

infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
Please don't copy/paste the same post in multiple threads.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2202865&start=320#p104451934

All I showed and proved were facts. not personal thoughts.

See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

Not following. Just showing details overall and from basketball reference.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

1966 and before only needed 2 series to win a title. 1985 and after needed to win 4 series to win a title. So keep that in mind.

michaelm · Post #409 » by **michaelm** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:43 am

JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:All I showed and proved were facts. not personal thoughts.

See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

Not following. Just showing details overall and from basketball reference.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

1966 and before only needed 2 series to win a title. 1985 and after needed to win 4 series to win a title. So keep that in mind.

Your own arbitrary points system, and Tim Duncan was on 5 title winning teams, not 4.

Post #410 » by **infinite11285** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:12 am

JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:All I showed and proved were facts. not personal thoughts.

See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

Not following. Just showing details overall and from basketball reference.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

1966 and before only needed 2 series to win a title. 1985 and after needed to win 4 series to win a title. So keep that in mind.

Did you really make up your own scoring framework? Would you mind divulging the scoring legend used? Based on your point scale, I want to know how someone with 11 rings is behind someone with 6 rings.

What happened to facts, not feelings?

Taj FTW · Post #411 » by **Taj FTW** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:32 am

infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

Not following. Just showing details overall and from basketball reference.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

1966 and before only needed 2 series to win a title. 1985 and after needed to win 4 series to win a title. So keep that in mind.

Did you really make up your own scoring framework? Would you mind divulging the scoring legend used? Based on your point scale, I want to know how someone with 11 rings is behind someone with 6 rings.

What happened to facts, not feelings?

LMAO. I think it's hilarious how he made up his own scoring system. That made be chuckle.

70sFan · Post #412 » by **70sFan** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:59 am

OdomFan wrote:
70sFan wrote:
flow wrote:You're running a team competing in a one time, best of 7 series to save your life. Win and you live, lose and you don't. In drafting your team, you can take either Jordan or Lebron with the first pick.

Who are you taking?

There's one answer. Bill Russell. That's why he's the goat.

.

I corrected it for you

I'll take Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq over Russell in such a draft. Heck Ill even take a few that didn't win a ring like Ewing.

Sure, it's up to you. I'm afraid you wouldn't love your choice of Ewing though.

twyzted · Post #413 » by **twyzted** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:01 am

dcstanley wrote:
Goomba3666 wrote:Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

dcstanley wrote:
Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

Wild how Lebron has now appearently played in 15 finals, is he still on 4 titles or?

dcstanley wrote:
In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4

I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't know it was by such a large margin

Wait did you count curry x2, duncan x2?

westbrook who won 5 years later, harden also 5 years later? That isnt really former mvps.

You also left out that Lebron played with:
3 Former DPOYs.

4 rookies of the year.

3 former MVPs.

4 former Fmvps.

That is a pretty hefty help and only 4 ringz :noway:

OdomFan · Post #414 » by **OdomFan** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:29 am

70sFan wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
70sFan wrote:I corrected it for you

I'll take Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq over Russell in such a draft. Heck Ill even take a few that didn't win a ring like Ewing.

Sure, it's up to you. I'm afraid you wouldn't love your choice of Ewing though.

Whys that though? just because he didn't win a ring in real life doesn't mean he couldn't in this scenario, and just because he got injured in real life doesn't mean he'd get hurt in every scenario. So what is the issue? Ewing was elite at both ends. I do love the choice.

KingFox · Post #415 » by **KingFox** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:33 am

*Looks at thread title*

As they should :nod:

-Luke- · Post #416 » by **-Luke-** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:50 am

JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:All I showed and proved were facts. not personal thoughts.

See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

Not following. Just showing details overall and from basketball reference.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

1966 and before only needed 2 series to win a title. 1985 and after needed to win 4 series to win a title. So keep that in mind.

How does your fact-based system evaluate that there was no Finals MVP during Bill Russell's career (other than the very last year when Jerry West won it while on the losing team?

70sFan · Post #417 » by **70sFan** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:55 am

OdomFan wrote:
70sFan wrote:
OdomFan wrote:I'll take Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq over Russell in such a draft. Heck Ill even take a few that didn't win a ring like Ewing.

Sure, it's up to you. I'm afraid you wouldn't love your choice of Ewing though.

Whys that though? just because he didn't win a ring in real life doesn't mean he couldn't in this scenario, and just because he got injured in real life doesn't mean he'd get hurt in every scenario. So what is the issue? Ewing was elite at both ends. I do love the choice.

I never said Ewing wasn't good enough to win the title. I never said Ewing wasn't a great player. You can be a great player while being clearly inferior to the other one.

I also think calling Ewing an elite offensive player is a huge stretch. I'm not even sure I'd pick prime Ewing over prime Russell offensively.

OdomFan · Post #418 » by **OdomFan** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:31 pm

70sFan wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
70sFan wrote:Sure, it's up to you. I'm afraid you wouldn't love your choice of Ewing though.

Whys that though? just because he didn't win a ring in real life doesn't mean he couldn't in this scenario, and just because he got injured in real life doesn't mean he'd get hurt in every scenario. So what is the issue? Ewing was elite at both ends. I do love the choice.

I never said Ewing wasn't good enough to win the title. I never said Ewing wasn't a great player. You can be a great player while being clearly inferior to the other one.

I also think calling Ewing an elite offensive player is a huge stretch. I'm not even sure I'd pick prime Ewing over prime Russell offensively.

Well he was an elite offensive player. Great foot work, good at scoring at the rim in the post and outside of it. How is calling him an elite offensive player a stretch? To each their own on the comparison with Russell. I'm taking Ewing. I don't see him as being "inferior" what so ever.

70sFan · Post #419 » by **70sFan** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:11 pm

OdomFan wrote:
70sFan wrote:
OdomFan wrote:Whys that though? just because he didn't win a ring in real life doesn't mean he couldn't in this scenario, and just because he got injured in real life doesn't mean he'd get hurt in every scenario. So what is the issue? Ewing was elite at both ends. I do love the choice.

I never said Ewing wasn't good enough to win the title. I never said Ewing wasn't a great player. You can be a great player while being clearly inferior to the other one.

I also think calling Ewing an elite offensive player is a huge stretch. I'm not even sure I'd pick prime Ewing over prime Russell offensively.

Well he was an elite offensive player. Great foot work, good at scoring at the rim in the post and outside of it. How is calling him an elite offensive player a stretch? To each their own on the comparison with Russell. I'm taking Ewing. I don't see him as being "inferior" what so ever.

Ewing was a decent finisher with good jumpshot and he could create his shots at average efficiency, but he was also a poor passer, weak playmaker, small factor on offensive glass and hr didn't maintain his scoring numbers (which weren't elite) in postseason. Ewing never anchored good offensive teams either. I think the only reason to call Ewing an elite offensive player is to give him huge credit for scoring consistently over 20 ppg, but that alone doesn't make you a great player.

Russell wasn't as good scorer, but he was significantly better passer and playmaker, more dynamic offensive player, better in transition, better on the glass, more athletic in P&R situations as well. His offensive production also increased in the postseason quite noticeably. Then of course Russell was a clearly better defender and rebounder, which doesn't help Ewing either.

michaelm · Post #420 » by **michaelm** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:34 pm

-Luke- wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
See my reply in the other thread (again, this is why you don't make the same post in multiple threads).

Not following. Just showing details overall and from basketball reference.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

1966 and before only needed 2 series to win a title. 1985 and after needed to win 4 series to win a title. So keep that in mind.

How does your fact-based system evaluate that there was no Finals MVP during Bill Russell's career (other than the very last year when Jerry West won it while on the losing team?

indeed the points system in question doesn't allow for the FMVP award not being in existence until 1969. it is probably not too extreme a presumption that there was a view that Bill might have won a few had the award existed given it was later named after him. I certainly didn't watch the 1969 NBA finals but I gather Jerry West was embarrassed to receive the award.