Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Indeed]

I think some of y’all need to adjust your expectations to be congruent with where Scottie is in is development. He’s a fairly raw second year player who has been used more as a connecting piece than as a lead initiator so of course it’s going to look ugly at times when he’s given the rock and asked to create. He still has an immense ceiling if he can develop his handle and jumper while becoming more aggressive. It’s not a guarantee to happen but the best case scenario is an MVP calibre player. I’m willing to live through some growing pains to get there.

I think the biggest question is, what can he improve on a yearly basis, and did he improve a lot from last year? To me from the stats, he seems to be the same.

[anotherhomer]

I think some of y’all need to adjust your expectations to be congruent with where Scottie is in is development. He’s a fairly raw second year player who has been used more as a connecting piece than as a lead initiator so of course it’s going to look ugly at times when he’s given the rock and asked to create. He still has an immense ceiling if he can develop his handle and jumper while becoming more aggressive. It’s not a guarantee to happen but the best case scenario is an MVP calibre player. I’m willing to live through some growing pains to get there.

I think the biggest question is, what can he improve on a yearly basis, and did he improve a lot from last year? To me from the stats, he seems to be the same.

that's a good question. here's what i've seen:
- he's been allowed to showcase his playmaking and passing more
- shooting remains inconsistent, numbers looks similiar, he's shown slightly more games where his 3-pointer maybe there.
his Feb numbers shows a 36% 3 pt, on 4.5 attempts, which is encouraging
- when he runs the point, you can tell he impacts the game positively but his ball-handling and ability to handle pressure looks ugly....

[AbC?]

Barnes is averaging 12.7/6.3/5.1 on 39% in 11 games without FVV this season. Yet he's the one holding him back somehow lol

[pingpongrac]

The more we see of Scottie as the PG, the more it is becoming abundantly clear that it's a waste of his talents at this stage of the game. He isn't near as active on the glass or inside which is where he does most of his damage when it comes to his own offence and he is pounding the heck out of the ball then handing it off to guys like Poeltl/Achiuwa/Boucher late in the clock because he has nowhere to go and doesn't want to shoot. He also isn't a viable option for defending guards for an entire game. That's something he is capable of doing every once in a while on switches, but it's not something he should be doing for ~75 possessions.

I'm all for developing Scottie as a point forward that initiates the offence from the high post or down on the block while also letting him loose in transition, but he is no where close to being capable of initiating from the perimeter until he drastically improves his shot and handle. He doesn't have much of a dribble-drive game and his jumpshot is still a work in progress which makes it nearly impossible for him and the team to be effective in this position, especially with a C like Poeltl (who is another non-shooting threat) thrown into the mix now. The majority of games without FVV this season with Scottie filling in as the "PG" have felt like wasted opportunities. Case in point, he's averaging 13/6/5 on 46 TS% with 2.5 TOV in those 11 games and more often than not it feels like he's just another guy on the court rather than a potential future star.

[Los_29]

Barnes is averaging 12.7/6.3/5.1 on 39% in 11 games without FVV this season.

Are there any players that are actually better without Fred? Every starter is better and more efficient with Fred than without. Poeltl looks way better with Fred as well even though it's just been three games without him.

Without Fred we can't even score 100 points. Clippers/Kings almost had 100 points in a single half the other night. lol.

[Wise80]

The more we see of Scottie as the PG, the more it is becoming abundantly clear that it's a waste of his talents at this stage of the game. He isn't near as active on the glass or inside which is where he does most of his damage when it comes to his own offence and he is pounding the heck out of the ball then handing it off to guys like Poeltl/Achiuwa/Boucher late in the clock because he has nowhere to go and doesn't want to shoot. He also isn't a viable option for defending guards for an entire game. That's something he is capable of doing every once in a while on switches, but it's not something he should be doing for ~75 possessions.

I'm all for developing Scottie as a point forward that initiates the offence from the high post or down on the block while also letting him loose in transition, but he is no where close to being capable of initiating from the perimeter until he drastically improves his shot and handle. He doesn't have much of a dribble-drive game and his jumpshot is still a work in progress which makes it nearly impossible for him and the team to be effective in this position, especially with a C like Poeltl (who is another non-shooting threat) thrown into the mix now. The majority of games without FVV this season with Scottie filling in as the "PG" have felt like wasted opportunities. Case in point, he's averaging 13/6/5 on 46 TS% with 2.5 TOV in those 11 games and more often than not it feels like he's just another guy on the court rather than a potential future star.

Agree completely.

You mention him not being active inside or on the glass and that will probably still be an issue when Fred is back. I have a feeling Jakob will be occupying that space even if Barnes isn't handling the ball.

[Tripod]

Barnes is averaging 12.7/6.3/5.1 on 39% in 11 games without FVV this season.

Are there any players that are actually better without Fred? Every starter is better and more efficient with Fred than without. Poeltl looks way better with Fred as well even though it's just been three games without him.

Without Fred we can't even score 100 points. Clippers/Kings almost had 100 points in a single half the other night. lol.

I guess we should ignore that multiple times this year, we didn't score 100 points WITH Fred in the lineup?

Or those games don't count?

[pingpongrac]

Barnes is averaging 12.7/6.3/5.1 on 39% in 11 games without FVV this season.

Are there any players that are actually better without Fred? Every starter is better and more efficient with Fred than without. Poeltl looks way better with Fred as well even though it's just been three games without him.

Without Fred we can't even score 100 points. Clippers/Kings almost had 100 points in a single half the other night. lol.

I guess we should ignore that multiple times this year, we didn't score 100 points WITH Fred in the lineup?

Or those games don't count?

We have scored less than 100 points in 4 of 50 games with FVV. We have scored less than 100 points in 3 of 12 games without FVV – and two of those came in the last 30 hours. Just watching the games it is clear how badly we need FVV with this current group, especially if GTJ and OG aren't scoring 20+ points each.

Our offence is 3 points/100 possessions better with FVV on the floor compared to off the floor which is a pretty sizable swing, but it has more to do with the fact that his replacements are nowhere near the level of shooter or playmaker. When FVV is available, we usually just swap him out with Siakam/Scottie/GTJ which isn't near as much of a drop-off as when he isn't available and we have to dig deeper into the bench then rely on Flynn/Banton/Dowtin.

[Tha Cynic]

Are there any players that are actually better without Fred? Every starter is better and more efficient with Fred than without. Poeltl looks way better with Fred as well even though it's just been three games without him.

Without Fred we can't even score 100 points. Clippers/Kings almost had 100 points in a single half the other night. lol.

I guess we should ignore that multiple times this year, we didn't score 100 points WITH Fred in the lineup?

Or those games don't count?

We have scored less than 100 points in 4 of 50 games with FVV. We have scored less than 100 points in 3 of 12 games without FVV – and two of those came in the last 30 hours. Just watching the games it is clear how badly we need FVV with this current group, especially if GTJ and OG aren't scoring 20+ points each.

Our offence is 3 points/100 possessions better with FVV on the floor compared to off the floor which is a pretty sizable swing, but it has more to do with the fact that his replacements are nowhere near the level of shooter or playmaker. When FVV is available, we usually just swap him out with Siakam/Scottie/GTJ which isn't near as much of a drop-off as when he isn't available and we have to dig deeper into the bench then rely on Flynn/Banton/Dowtin.

You don't need to dig deep into stats to know that a team that has only two ball handlers and shooters will miss said ball handlers and shooters if they are out lol. This team is built with no backup plan so obviously they will miss that player. They don't even have an average or decent backup.

[Tha Cynic]

Personally, I have liked some of the progress Barnes is making as a ball handler. He's trying more things since the first game in this 3 game stretch and is starting to take some more midrange jumpers. I want to see more of that even if he misses. The release looks good on those shots, and it's a lot better than when he's playing offball and trying to hit 3s. The reps will help and hopefully he can take a longer stretch like this where he keeps handling the ball. It's unfortunate this team is built with no spacing, but it will help him in the longer run.

But again, he needs to be about half as selfish as Aichuwa and Boucher on offense. He also overprocesses what to to do when he's isolating. He needs to simply attack quicker and not worry about turnovers. If you make a mistake, you make a mistake - it will help in the long run. This is a bad team anyway.

[notagenius]

His defence is disappointing.

Looks like his feet is stuck in mud with guys blowing by him.



Sent from my SM-G998W using RealGM mobile app

[HumbleRen]

Just because you can pass, it does not mean you’re a point guard.

Draymond Green is a superior passer and he doesn’t play PG even when Curry is out.

Unless he suddenly becomes a great ball handler as well as the ability to blow by his defender, he’ll never be able to be a PG for a team who has aspirations of winning.

He should aspire to be a scoring wing player not a PG. The ball will naturally be in your hands ALOT more if you’re a consistent scoring threat.

[pingpongrac]

I guess we should ignore that multiple times this year, we didn't score 100 points WITH Fred in the lineup?

Or those games don't count?

We have scored less than 100 points in 4 of 50 games with FVV. We have scored less than 100 points in 3 of 12 games without FVV – and two of those came in the last 30 hours. Just watching the games it is clear how badly we need FVV with this current group, especially if GTJ and OG aren't scoring 20+ points each.

Our offence is 3 points/100 possessions better with FVV on the floor compared to off the floor which is a pretty sizable swing, but it has more to do with the fact that his replacements are nowhere near the level of shooter or playmaker. When FVV is available, we usually just swap him out with Siakam/Scottie/GTJ which isn't near as much of a drop-off as when he isn't available and we have to dig deeper into the bench then rely on Flynn/Banton/Dowtin.

You don't need to dig deep into stats to know that a team that has only two ball handlers and shooters will miss said ball handlers and shooters if they are out lol. This team is built with no backup plan so obviously they will miss that player. They don't even have an average or decent backup.

We're averaging 115 PPG without GTJ while we're averaging 111 PPG without FVV (which includes our two highest scoring games of the season in back-to-back games in the second week), so it's not just as simple as "we'll miss a shooter or ball-handler when he is out". GTJ doesn't make our offence better even though he has statistically been a better shooter than FVV (+4 FG%, +2 3FG%, +2 TS%) because he doesn't do much else aside from score.

I believe the initial point of this chain is that, regardless of what people seem to think because of a few spurts here and there, Scottie is more effective playing as more of a point forward alongside FVV than he is in the backcourt at this stage and it isn't very close.

With FVV: 16.7 PTS per36 (56 TS%) with a 2.5 AST/TO ratio on 20.9 USG%
Without FVV: 14.4 PTS per36 (48 TS%) with a 2.1 AST/TO ratio on 20.3 USG%

[gbball]

Are there any players that are actually better without Fred? Every starter is better and more efficient with Fred than without. Poeltl looks way better with Fred as well even though it's just been three games without him.

Without Fred we can't even score 100 points. Clippers/Kings almost had 100 points in a single half the other night. lol.

I guess we should ignore that multiple times this year, we didn't score 100 points WITH Fred in the lineup?

Or those games don't count?

We have scored less than 100 points in 4 of 50 games with FVV. We have scored less than 100 points in 3 of 12 games without FVV – and two of those came in the last 30 hours. Just watching the games it is clear how badly we need FVV with this current group, especially if GTJ and OG aren't scoring 20+ points each.

Our offence is 3 points/100 possessions better with FVV on the floor compared to off the floor which is a pretty sizable swing, but it has more to do with the fact that his replacements are nowhere near the level of shooter or playmaker. When FVV is available, we usually just swap him out with Siakam/Scottie/GTJ which isn't near as much of a drop-off as when he isn't available and we have to dig deeper into the bench then rely on Flynn/Banton/Dowtin.

I think we just need pg play. Nurse is still punting on who should go to the bench with Poeltl starting. We should be a starting a guard in Fred's place. I think it should be Flynn since he's not ball dominant, a willing passer and generally makes the right play. Dowtin is also an option there.

I didn't watch today, but against Detroit, our lack of a lead initiator stalled out our offense. We just need someone who can set the table for others and let Siakam/Barnes be secondary playmakers as they should be at this point.

[Madvillainy2004]

We have scored less than 100 points in 4 of 50 games with FVV. We have scored less than 100 points in 3 of 12 games without FVV – and two of those came in the last 30 hours. Just watching the games it is clear how badly we need FVV with this current group, especially if GTJ and OG aren't scoring 20+ points each.

Our offence is 3 points/100 possessions better with FVV on the floor compared to off the floor which is a pretty sizable swing, but it has more to do with the fact that his replacements are nowhere near the level of shooter or playmaker. When FVV is available, we usually just swap him out with Siakam/Scottie/GTJ which isn't near as much of a drop-off as when he isn't available and we have to dig deeper into the bench then rely on Flynn/Banton/Dowtin.

You don't need to dig deep into stats to know that a team that has only two ball handlers and shooters will miss said ball handlers and shooters if they are out lol. This team is built with no backup plan so obviously they will miss that player. They don't even have an average or decent backup.

We're averaging 115 PPG without GTJ while we're averaging 111 PPG without FVV (which includes our two highest scoring games of the season in back-to-back games in the second week), so it's not just as simple as "we'll miss a shooter or ball-handler when he is out". GTJ doesn't make our offence better even though he has statistically been a better shooter than FVV (+4 FG%, +2 3FG%, +2 TS%) because he doesn't do much else aside from score.

I believe the initial point of this chain is that, regardless of what people seem to think because of a few spurts here and there, Scottie is more effective playing as more of a point forward alongside FVV than he is in the backcourt at this stage and it isn't very close.

With FVV: 16.7 PTS per36 (56 TS%) with a 2.5 AST/TO ratio on 20.9 USG%
Without FVV: 14.4 PTS per36 (48 TS%) with a 2.1 AST/TO ratio on 20.3 USG%

Barnes having a lower usage without Fred is hilarious considering the narratives lmao

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

You don't need to dig deep into stats to know that a team that has only two ball handlers and shooters will miss said ball handlers and shooters if they are out lol. This team is built with no backup plan so obviously they will miss that player. They don't even have an average or decent backup.

We're averaging 115 PPG without GTJ while we're averaging 111 PPG without FVV (which includes our two highest scoring games of the season in back-to-back games in the second week), so it's not just as simple as "we'll miss a shooter or ball-handler when he is out". GTJ doesn't make our offence better even though he has statistically been a better shooter than FVV (+4 FG%, +2 3FG%, +2 TS%) because he doesn't do much else aside from score.

I believe the initial point of this chain is that, regardless of what people seem to think because of a few spurts here and there, Scottie is more effective playing as more of a point forward alongside FVV than he is in the backcourt at this stage and it isn't very close.

With FVV: 16.7 PTS per36 (56 TS%) with a 2.5 AST/TO ratio on 20.9 USG%
Without FVV: 14.4 PTS per36 (48 TS%) with a 2.1 AST/TO ratio on 20.3 USG%

Barnes having a lower usage without Fred is hilarious considering the narratives lmao

Usage rating as a statistic isn't what most people think it is.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Back to not being able to punish the Cavs for hiding Dean Wade on him again. This is at least good information for the Raptors to have going into the off-season. I thought he spent too much time looking to find OG in the post, maybe because he wants to get OG going, but OG is not ready to play right now and it was just empty possessions or risky passes.

13 drives, 2/7. 0 FTA. 0 assists off drives. 1 turnover.

Last 2 games, 23 drives. 2/13, 0 FTA, 0 assists off drives.

He's averaged 7 potential assists the last 2 games. Same as Gary Trent. Rough couple of games.

[Kingsway_fan]

Og has been brutal on the offensive end since his return.

Puts a lot of pressure on Paacal to do it all

[Madvillainy2004]

I'm gonna need someone to be real with Scottie and let him know he's not a PG. He's not dynamic enough with the ball or a strong enough shooter. He cam run some PnR but he needs to play around the rim. Until he can prove he can score outside of 10 feet. I know Scottie "thinks" he's a PG but after seeing him the past 2 seasons + FSU that's just not what he's good at.

It does beg the question of if Siakam/Scottie/Poetl fit long term as well. Because Scottie is a PF too. But regardless this PG nonsense has to stop lol

[djsunyc]

I'm gonna need someone to be real with Scottie and let him know he's not a PG. He's not dynamic enough with the ball or a strong enough shooter. He cam run some PnR but he needs to play around the rim. Until he can prove he can score outside of 10 feet. I know Scottie "thinks" he's a PG but after seeing him the past 2 seasons + FSU that's just not what he's good at.

It does beg the question of if Siakam/Scottie/Poetl fit long term as well. Because Scottie is a PF too. But regardless this PG nonsense has to stop lol

player development. you try out stuff and see what works. it's quite early in scottie's development but if you don't try it at times then there's no body of work to try and improve on. so give him some reps. but unlike scorched earth extremists here, you don't give him ALL the reps. team still desperately needs fred b/c we have no concept of anything functioning offense w/o him.