2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition

[Flash4thewin]

The sharks smell blood in the water and are circling. There's a thread on the General Board about if Butler might be the next star to ask for a trade lol. They took his I'm tired of losing comment out of context but still. If we can't get anyone significant in the offseason we should trade him to be honest.

They are stating the obvious. For the general board to pick up on what we have been saying speaks volumes. Anyone who watches just a few Heat games will ask WTF is Butler doing when they see him in his emo coasting just doing cardio mode. That Knicks game had Knick fans saying Butler is either hurt/trash/will demand a trade. It was a game where we were neck and neck yet Butler looked like a spectator. He scored a whopping 10 points and looked so disinterested.

This is someone who will be making 50 mil a year…..

[BBallFreak]

We have no reason or right to be shocked, looking at the roster with objective eyes it's easy to see we have 2 great player, 1 inconsistent good player -

and nothing much around them. Everyone else on the roster can fairly be described as "below average player"

Why should the team be so great when that's your roster? we overachieved big time last season, this season is a much more accurate picture of the talent level on the roster

This franchise has gotten addicted to filling the roster with guys we found at the Y and polished up ... and Spo somehow making it work. That is not a sustainable approach to winning.

Really? We've been doing it since Riley got here. Voshon Lenard and Ike Austin being two of the first.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

Iras fed up

[AirP.]

I feel most of Herro's assists in the PnR are to Bam.

I can't find the assists from PnR but I can find assists to player.
Herro 1.3 assists to Bam.
Herro to anyone else .5 or less per game.
At one point it was higher to Bam while everyone else was .5 or less.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629639/passes-dash?dir=D&sort=AST

You then look at Lowry's assists.
1.3 assists to Bam
1.1 assists to Strus
.7 assists to Butler
.6 assists to Martin
.5 assists to Herro
Then a huge drop off to .2 assists to everyone else but a more diverse distribution which you'd expect from a PG.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/200768/passes-dash?dir=D&sort=AST

Last year both Butler and Bam quit looking to playmake as much as they did their first 2 years together, they had a PG on the team to do that, this year they replaced a C&S SG position with Herro who can C&S but needs that ball in his hands which when he's got the ball there's no real C&S player on the court with him unless Vincent is starting all while taking the ball out of Kyle's hands and having him play a C&S player which he's not doing, he's just basically swinging the ball to the other side of the court.

I'd just like to point out again, when Herro was out, the ball was in Lowry's hands more and in that 8 game stretch put up 15.6 pts, 6.8 ast, 5.5 reb and shot 38% from 3pt range on 7.3 3s attempted per game. It seems very logical to move a C&S 3pt shooter into the starting lineup at SG and moving Herro back to scoring 6th man which should help the starters and the bench. The only reason I can really think of keeping Herro in the starting lineup is to try to build his value as a starter vs 6th man or they think they're developing him vs playing to win this season. Herro does have a role, he wants to be a ball dominate scorer but he's not good enough to carry an offense, that's where being a scoring 6th man comes into play.

It's just odd how this coaching staff/FO seems to want to utilize players out of position, it was really odd to see point Winslow vs having him as a playmaking SF/PF then Bam became a DHO machine vs taking advantage of his size/speed being an undersized center.

[IceColdCubano]

I am going to leave this here for those that need it.

We have been an amazing organization for many years, top of the line. You can say whatever you want about our gimmicky Heat mantra's and their sometime hollow meanings but at the end of the day they do strive for success unlike other teams whom just get by.

Miami will always find a way to stay in contention or to improve its window of contention. Mistakes are part of any business that involves in cohesion of players and some of them find a way to hurt the franchise for many years after their commitments are signed.

There is a special blend of coaching talent and player archetypes that make this team what they are and it has evolved over the many years I have watched them. Somethings they don't always have the ability to field such teams but they put place holders if the ability came around to make trades or offload for the right type of players.

While I do believe our coaching staff can be hard headed at times with player management their decisions do not come from ignorance, they do have a lo of data and analysis from many years of success behind them to make those decisions. Most times than not the process ends up working once the kinks are ironed out, and in some rare circumstances they don't the team makes the decision to move a different direction when that does happen. They do not make these decisions abruptly, they do take their time analyzing why it went wrong and if there's a way to correct those issues.

Due to their work hard mentality they have an ability to get more out of undrafted players than most other associations. This actually by plan and not because the owner is cheap. This is actually helpful for them and allows them to make the type of quick roster turnarounds other teams cannot do. By nurturing undrafted talent and squeezing everything they can from them without having to use up assets to get them they can use those asset picks to make trades.

We find ourselves in an awkward position as an organization. The mistakes that were made on the investment on some players are now at a crux, you have those mistakes ie; large salaries on bad return in production, assets loss from previous trades still haven't cleared the timeline of those decisions. Additionally our entire bench of undrafted talent went completely bad, you can say that's what they always were, but has there ever been a year where the entire bench forgot to play basketball, this is really an outlier.

I think we can put some trust in our front office that it will get better for our team, they wouldn't be considered a good front office if that wasn't the case from many years of achievements. Our players are tired of losing as expressed in their post game comments and our coaching staff continues to experiment to no end trying to find something that sticks/works or doesn't suck worse. We find ourselves where perhaps this is that outlier, that season that just proves to be pointless and wasting of the window that was constructed to be a winning group.

It's really easy to backseat quarterback decisions when we now have all the information in front of us and the results of those decisions. They have a lot of experts in their trade whom make big decisions and live with the results. I just hope we have a little more patience with the team that has given us some many amazing years, there are probably many more to come. I am excited to see the end result of this sinking ship, because if anybody can resurrect this build its probably this front office. At the end of the day even if they decide to move into a new direction next off season we will all be here to enjoy the process. Everybody wants the gem in their pockets but lets take the time to watch the miners work a bit.

[AirP.]

It's really easy to backseat quarterback decisions when we now have all the information in front of us and the results of those decisions. They have a lot of experts in their trade whom make big decisions and live with the results. I just hope we have a little more patience with the team that has given us some many amazing years, there are probably many more to come. I am excited to see the end result of this sinking ship, because if anybody can resurrect this build its probably this front office. At the end of the day even if they decide to move into a new direction next off season we will all be here to enjoy the process. Everybody wants the gem in their pockets but lets take the time to watch the miners work a bit.

No.
Since LeBron left this FO has been bad on player evaluations with handing out contracts and not handing out contracts to players like a franchise guy like D.Wade or a starting PF for a finals team in Crowder who was only asking for 10 mil a year.

The overpaying of T.Johnson, J.Johnson, Waiters, Whiteside, Robinson and quite possibly Herro.

This team allowed a great 2nd half to dictate how they felt about marginal talent which gave Miami a few of those bad contracts before Butler got here.

I still can't believe D.Wade left Miami because they refused to pay him.

The FO went all in on the 2021 plan, didn't trade for CP3 on a discount because he wouldn't opt out early of his PO in 2021, then let a starting PF of a finals team walk when all he was asking for was 10 mil a year and what did the FO eventually do, they had to placate their star who I'm sure they sold the 2021 plan (which would part of the explanation to let him know why they let his starting PF in the finals walk for nothing) by overpaying Lowry.

Holy )(#$, this team's roster was so screwed up before Butler that Spoelstra was trying to make Winslow a starting PG, J.Richardson was being pushed as a scorer and had the most FGA for Miami in 2018-2019.

If Butler hadn't forced his way to Miami (D.Wade sold him on how they were run, so some credit to the FO/coaching staff) there's no telling how bad this franchise would currently be, because of the FO personal decisions Miami was trying to make Winslow a PG.

Miami got a gift with Butler forcing his way to Miami, he's shown the ability to be a dominate player in the finals and this FO has done basically NOTHING to add to the team other than trade for expiring vets which still blows my mind.

This hasn't been a recent issue with the FO VASTLY overpaying players, it's been happening for 7+ years. They sent assets out multiple years in a row to get rid of KZ and now Dedmon AND STILL they are in deep )#($( with the tax next year on a near .500 team against the max. The FO has massively screwed up this roster with only 2 very good talents and one player with potential. Robinson 90 million dollars who can't play defense, dribble, pass, attack at an average NBA level? They could have gotten a player for example like M.Monk for 5-10 mil a year and had a much better player on the roster!

[Kobewade11]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Crowder 3/30M >>>>> Duncan 5/$90M and it’s not even close

[Kobewade11]

It's really easy to backseat quarterback decisions when we now have all the information in front of us and the results of those decisions. They have a lot of experts in their trade whom make big decisions and live with the results. I just hope we have a little more patience with the team that has given us some many amazing years, there are probably many more to come. I am excited to see the end result of this sinking ship, because if anybody can resurrect this build its probably this front office. At the end of the day even if they decide to move into a new direction next off season we will all be here to enjoy the process. Everybody wants the gem in their pockets but lets take the time to watch the miners work a bit.

This is essentially what this forum has become. Im surprised some guys here arent working in some team’s front office, they never miss

[3ammy3uck3ts]

It's really easy to backseat quarterback decisions when we now have all the information in front of us and the results of those decisions. They have a lot of experts in their trade whom make big decisions and live with the results. I just hope we have a little more patience with the team that has given us some many amazing years, there are probably many more to come. I am excited to see the end result of this sinking ship, because if anybody can resurrect this build its probably this front office. At the end of the day even if they decide to move into a new direction next off season we will all be here to enjoy the process. Everybody wants the gem in their pockets but lets take the time to watch the miners work a bit.

No.
Since LeBron left this FO has been bad on player evaluations with handing out contracts and not handing out contracts to players like a franchise guy like D.Wade or a starting PF for a finals team in Crowder who was only asking for 10 mil a year.

The overpaying of T.Johnson, J.Johnson, Waiters, Whiteside, Robinson and quite possibly Herro.

This team allowed a great 2nd half to dictate how they felt about marginal talent which gave Miami a few of those bad contracts before Butler got here.

I still can't believe D.Wade left Miami because they refused to pay him.

The FO went all in on the 2021 plan, didn't trade for CP3 on a discount because he wouldn't opt out early of his PO in 2021, then let a starting PF of a finals team walk when all he was asking for was 10 mil a year and what did the FO eventually do, they had to placate their star who I'm sure they sold the 2021 plan (which would part of the explanation to let him know why they let his starting PF in the finals walk for nothing) by overpaying Lowry.

Holy )(#$, this team's roster was so screwed up before Butler that Spoelstra was trying to make Winslow a starting PG, J.Richardson was being pushed as a scorer and had the most FGA for Miami in 2018-2019.

If Butler hadn't forced his way to Miami (D.Wade sold him on how they were run, so some credit to the FO/coaching staff) there's no telling how bad this franchise would currently be, because of the FO personal decisions Miami was trying to make Winslow a PG.

Miami got a gift with Butler forcing his way to Miami, he's shown the ability to be a dominate player in the finals and this FO has done basically NOTHING to add to the team other than trade for expiring vets which still blows my mind.

This hasn't been a recent issue with the FO VASTLY overpaying players, it's been happening for 7+ years. They sent assets out multiple years in a row to get rid of KZ and now Dedmon AND STILL they are in deep )#($( with the tax next year on a near .500 team against the max. The FO has massively screwed up this roster with only 2 very good talents and one player with potential. Robinson 90 million dollars who can't play defense, dribble, pass, attack at an average NBA level? They could have gotten a player for example like M.Monk for 5-10 mil a year and had a much better player on the roster!

Hold on, let this man cook

[AirP.]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

Right, the 3 year contract at 10 mil a year when into the 2021 plan which only blew up in their faces a few weeks later when Giannis FINALLY announced he'd sign the super max(duh), which of course pushed Miami to then to extend Bam a year earlier then they needed to reducing the amount of money they'd have for free agency(his cap hold was a lot less than his max contract).

The FO F'D up.

I don't care how you feel about Crowder, yes he shot above his abilities, but he had other very good skills, he was worth in the ballpark of 10 mil a year for 3 years as a starting PF, then a year later they hand Duncan a 5 year 90 million dollar contract with a player option after having a lesser year then his one great shooting season... ONE GREAT SHOOTING SEASON and did nothing else at the NBA level, especially playing defense.

[Kobewade11]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

Right, the 3 year contract at 10 mil a year when into the 2021 plan which only blew up in their faces a few weeks later when Giannis FINALLY announced he'd sign the super max(duh), which of course pushed Miami to then to extend Bam a year earlier then they needed to reducing the amount of money they'd have for free agency(his cap hold was a lot less than his max contract).

The FO F'D up.

I don't care how you feel about Crowder, he was worth 10 mil a year for 3 years as a starting PF, then a year later they hand Duncan a 5 year 90 million dollar contract with a player option after having a lesser year then his one great shooting season... ONE GREAT SHOOTING SEASON.

Crowder was no savior, there is a reason Phoenix dropped him like a bad habit. I wasn’t a fan of the Duncan deal, thats already on record. If nothing else I’d welcome this team going a different direction just so we can shed a few posters.

[AirP.]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

Right, the 3 year contract at 10 mil a year when into the 2021 plan which only blew up in their faces a few weeks later when Giannis FINALLY announced he'd sign the super max(duh), which of course pushed Miami to then to extend Bam a year earlier then they needed to reducing the amount of money they'd have for free agency(his cap hold was a lot less than his max contract).

The FO F'D up.

I don't care how you feel about Crowder, he was worth 10 mil a year for 3 years as a starting PF, then a year later they hand Duncan a 5 year 90 million dollar contract with a player option after having a lesser year then his one great shooting season... ONE GREAT SHOOTING SEASON.

Crowder was no savior, there is a reason Phoenix dropped him like a bad habit. I wasn’t a fan of the Duncan deal, thats already on record. If nothing else I’d welcome this team going a different direction just so we can shed a few posters.

Right, Crowder wasn't a savior, but at 10 mil a year he was a good value for what Miami wanted out of their PF. Toughness with his defense and some 3pt shooting. If he was asking for 15 mil I get letting him walk but 10 mil is in the ballpark for a decent starting PF at that time, especially without the ability to replace him.

Believe me, I'd love for the J.Butler experience to end in Miami, I can't wait to see the Miami Herro era that it seems some are wanting which is pretty much already happening.

[Flash4thewin]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

Crowder wanted a 3/30 deal. Unless you are implying our front office is so stupid and idiotic that it can’t trade a starter making 10 mil a year I don’t get your point. We wanted Giannis, cool, if all that I’m magical fantasy land stopping that from happening is 10 mil, you trade him unless again you are implying we are run by incompetent people.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

Right, the 3 year contract at 10 mil a year when into the 2021 plan which only blew up in their faces a few weeks later when Giannis FINALLY announced he'd sign the super max(duh), which of course pushed Miami to then to extend Bam a year earlier then they needed to reducing the amount of money they'd have for free agency(his cap hold was a lot less than his max contract).

The FO F'D up.

I don't care how you feel about Crowder, he was worth 10 mil a year for 3 years as a starting PF, then a year later they hand Duncan a 5 year 90 million dollar contract with a player option after having a lesser year then his one great shooting season... ONE GREAT SHOOTING SEASON.

Crowder was no savior, there is a reason Phoenix dropped him like a bad habit. I wasn’t a fan of the Duncan deal, thats already on record. If nothing else I’d welcome this team going a different direction just so we can shed a few posters.

I’ll take your bait brother, I’ll be here. I’m a Heat fan first and foremost and honestly that’s my bad for defending the future of this franchise when people have outlandish takes.

Have a good day.

[Kobewade11]

Right, Crowder wasn't a savior, but at 10 mil a year he was a good value for what Miami wanted out of their PF. Toughness with his defense and some 3pt shooting. If he was asking for 15 mil I get letting him walk but 10 mil is in the ballpark for a decent starting PF at that time, especially without the ability to replace him.

Believe me, I'd love for the J.Butler experience to end in Miami, I can't wait to see the Miami Herro era that it seems some are wanting.

Whatever gets you guys out fastest im for it

[AirP.]

On one hand you guys get mad about overpaying guys, and then get mad they don't overpay guys (whether that is overpaying in $ or years). For the thousandth time, the issue with Crowder was the years on the contract, not the money he was asking for per year. I'm sick of hearing from player-fans with no real skin in the game here. There isn't a FO in the league that hasn't missed on a draft prospect, that hasn't given out a contract that didn't pan out, that didn't luck up into a trade that did pan out, that hasn't missed on FA signings. We can sit here and play the if if was a fifth game all day.

Crowder wanted a 3/30 deal. Unless you are implying our front office is so stupid and idiotic that it can’t trade a starter making 10 mil a year I don’t get your point. We wanted Giannis, cool, if all that I’m magical fantasy land stopping that from happening is 10 mil, you trade him unless again you are implying we are run by incompetent people.

Or possibly use him in a sign and trade? Miami JUST GOT BUTLER WITHOUT CAPSPACE, why was it so damn important to have cap space this time to add to a Butler and Bam core?

[Kobewade11]

Crowder wanted a 3/30 deal. Unless you are implying our front office is so stupid and idiotic that it can’t trade a starter making 10 mil a year I don’t get your point. We wanted Giannis, cool, if all that I’m magical fantasy land stopping that from happening is 10 mil, you trade him unless again you are implying we are run by incompetent people.

You know the job better than them, im connected with a few on Linkedin send me a dm. i’ll get you hooked up

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Pat might be able to redeem himself this summer

[AirP.]

Right, Crowder wasn't a savior, but at 10 mil a year he was a good value for what Miami wanted out of their PF. Toughness with his defense and some 3pt shooting. If he was asking for 15 mil I get letting him walk but 10 mil is in the ballpark for a decent starting PF at that time, especially without the ability to replace him.

Believe me, I'd love for the J.Butler experience to end in Miami, I can't wait to see the Miami Herro era that it seems some are wanting.

Whatever gets you guys out fastest im for it

Right! Echo chambers FTW! I'm sorry your FO has been bad for what will be a decade in a couple of years. I went through that with Chicago and the GarPax FO.