Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[ATLTimekeeper]

He was good against the incredible defensive CJ McCollum/JV tandem, and not very good at all against the Pistons and Cavs.

DeMar was a gym rat heading into the league. He was one of the more humble prospects we've ever had, though. Despite being touted as a Vince Carter level prospect coming out of high school, he went to Tim Floyd at USC and admitted he didn't know how to play the game. His handle was well below Scottie's at USC, but he was really talented scoring inside the paint and he did have a midrange stepback in his game. He could always draw fouls and finish through contact, too. He added skill and craft but his game was always built around that jump shot. Same deal with Tatum, but Tatum was just a better shooter and his ability to hit 3s helped his efficiency.

Scottie's game is not really built as a scorer, and the Raptors are trying to force him to be one. As I wrote, he's one of the lowest scoring players that average that many minutes. He doesn't get to the line, but his best scoring zone is the paint. Doesn't get to the line, can't shoot off the dribble and is becoming respectable on catch and shoot 3s. Imo he's closer to Siakam's development track than DeMar's. 2nd year Siakam was just attacking in transition and spotting up in the corner (and not looking all that good). He had good touch in the paint, played great D and didn't draw fouls at all. Then he went with Rico and the rest is history. For Scottie I want to hear that he's not dipping out of the Rico runs to keep to his own schedule, and I want to hear that he's maniacal in the gym getting up reps.

The common thread with both DeMar and Siakam was that they lived in the gym to build that skillset up.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Lowkey the best thing that could have happened for Scottie would have been us sucking last year so he could play in the G-League and get reps as an on ball guy with real games. Maybe to end off this year Nurse gives him more bench + Scottie minutes and mandates Scottie to shoot at least every other possession

He tries in spurts but you can see he doesn't like to do it because he feels hes ball hogging or taking away from a better scorer. I don't really know the ideal role for him, but as of now he's more a playmaking wing than a point guard. He can't really get into the paint with an advantage to draw help and make passes most of the time, he also doesn't really have a pull up game to use in PnR or a consistent jumper off the dribble. Those are a lot of things to have to develop

I'm not sure how us sucking leads to Scottie getting sent to the G League.

I guess him starting strong early which lead to us winning with him in the lineup caused him to just stay there out of necessity. Idk maybe it should be the other way around and if we were winning without him or he started really slow/bad he would have got run down there.

I just wish he had a chance to have a run the g-league so he could develop without pressure. Right now its obvious he tries not to do more than he's asked so for a lot of games he looks passive and I don't see it changing unless more guys sit or we officially start overtly tanking and let Scottie do whatever

[Los_29]

Lowkey the best thing that could have happened for Scottie would have been us sucking last year so he could play in the G-League and get reps as an on ball guy with real games. Maybe to end off this year Nurse gives him more bench + Scottie minutes and mandates Scottie to shoot at least every other possession

He tries in spurts but you can see he doesn't like to do it because he feels hes ball hogging or taking away from a better scorer. I don't really know the ideal role for him, but as of now he's more a playmaking wing than a point guard. He can't really get into the paint with an advantage to draw help and make passes most of the time, he also doesn't really have a pull up game to use in PnR or a consistent jumper off the dribble. Those are a lot of things to have to develop

I'm not sure how us sucking leads to Scottie getting sent to the G League.

I guess him starting strong early which lead to us winning with him in the lineup caused him to just stay there out of necessity. Idk maybe it should be the other way around and if we were winning without him or he started really slow/bad he would have got run down there.

I just wish he had a chance to have a run the g-league so he could develop without pressure. Right now its obvious he tries not to do more than he's asked so for a lot of games he looks passive and I don't see it changing unless more guys sit or we officially start overtly tanking and let Scottie do whatever

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I'm not sure how us sucking leads to Scottie getting sent to the G League.

I guess him starting strong early which lead to us winning with him in the lineup caused him to just stay there out of necessity. Idk maybe it should be the other way around and if we were winning without him or he started really slow/bad he would have got run down there.

I just wish he had a chance to have a run the g-league so he could develop without pressure. Right now its obvious he tries not to do more than he's asked so for a lot of games he looks passive and I don't see it changing unless more guys sit or we officially start overtly tanking and let Scottie do whatever

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

[Reeko]

I guess him starting strong early which lead to us winning with him in the lineup caused him to just stay there out of necessity. Idk maybe it should be the other way around and if we were winning without him or he started really slow/bad he would have got run down there.

I just wish he had a chance to have a run the g-league so he could develop without pressure. Right now its obvious he tries not to do more than he's asked so for a lot of games he looks passive and I don't see it changing unless more guys sit or we officially start overtly tanking and let Scottie do whatever

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

My only issue is that it wouldn't be against NBA level competition so I question how much he would actually benefit. We see the kind of numbers that Banton puts up in the G League and Scottie is like 2 or 3 levels above Banton as a player.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's still the Gleauge. Points don't translate well from there. He's still struggling to beat Dean Wade off the dribble, not because he doesn't want to. His work needs to be done in the summer.

[OakleyDokely]

Read on Twitter

[UnbelievablyRAW]

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

My only issue is that it wouldn't be against NBA level competition so I question how much he would actually benefit. We see the kind of numbers that Banton puts up in the G League and Scottie is like 2 or 3 levels above Banton as a player.

Im more concerned with him being able and willing to get certain looks off in games that don't matter, don't really care about the stats per se. Just a means of skill development in real games so he can test certain moves to see if he can actually get them off against competition or how to adjust to get them off all while becoming more comfortable taking them. Pretty much what OG has been doing all season in trying to showcase all the iso moves he's been working on (but in his case the games matter and those possessions can/have cost a game)

I'm one of the people that believed the run Fred and Pascal had in the g-league were paramount in preparing them for their roles in the real league because they got reps doing things they'd never get to do in the NBA roster

[Wise80]

Scottie is not shooting it because he feels bad and that he thinks it makes him a ball hog.

Let's be honest. He's not shooting it because he can't do anything with the ball at this point in his game.

Stop kidding yourself and thinking that he feels like he has to pass it out. He literally can't get shots off. That's why he's not shooting it. Mixed in with him not having confidence in his ability to score.

I think he'll eventually get there. But it's a long ways away. Year 4 Scottie is when I expect him to be able to have a few go to moves that he will be working on. Results won't be perfect, but that's when I expect to see some results.

[BetterCallSaul]

I guess him starting strong early which lead to us winning with him in the lineup caused him to just stay there out of necessity. Idk maybe it should be the other way around and if we were winning without him or he started really slow/bad he would have got run down there.

I just wish he had a chance to have a run the g-league so he could develop without pressure. Right now its obvious he tries not to do more than he's asked so for a lot of games he looks passive and I don't see it changing unless more guys sit or we officially start overtly tanking and let Scottie do whatever

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

These guys scrimmage in practice. I'd rather he put up those shots against Pascal and Precious in practice than some G league guy. He's too good for G league

[UnbelievablyRAW]

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

These guys scrimmage in practice. I'd rather he put up those shots against Pascal and Precious in practice than some G league guy. He's too good for G league

Even with the lesser competition I'm pretty sure a G-league game is more competitive than a scrimmage at practice. We see guys do offseason scrimmages and look like prime Jordan. Again, its less about the people he's playing and more about getting an opportunity to try moves in game situations against guys who are actually trying. I would love if he got to spend 2 weeks down there last year and just focused on getting at least 20 points every night with more than putbacks and hook shots

[BetterCallSaul]

The most discouraging part of Scottie's game is that his in between game - shooting from 3 feet - 3pt line is down across the board. I really thought he would keep developing his floaters and little pull up jumpers but it hasn't been the case. Pascal was somewhat similar, once defences realized they needed to lock in on his floaters, he needed to recommit to hitting them at the same rate but with that defensive attention.
I agree that Scottie's path to "stardom" will resemble Pascale more than Tatum. He's not going to start taking over games any time soon, but he will keep growing. IF he has the work ethic.

[Reeko]

Scottie is not shooting it because he feels bad and that he thinks it makes him a ball hog.

Let's be honest. He's not shooting it because he can't do anything with the ball at this point in his game.

Stop kidding yourself and thinking that he feels like he has to pass it out. He literally can't get shots off. That's why he's not shooting it. Mixed in with him not having confidence in his ability to score.

I think he'll eventually get there. But it's a long ways away. Year 4 Scottie is when I expect him to be able to have a few go to moves that he will be working on. Results won't be perfect, but that's when I expect to see some results.

I agree with the confidence bit, but as for him not being able to get his shot off I wholeheartedly disagree. He's shown time and time again that he can get his shot off against anyone. What's holding him back is his confidence and belief that him taking the shots that are available to him are the best option for the team.

[BetterCallSaul]

Scottie is not shooting it because he feels bad and that he thinks it makes him a ball hog.

Let's be honest. He's not shooting it because he can't do anything with the ball at this point in his game.

Stop kidding yourself and thinking that he feels like he has to pass it out. He literally can't get shots off. That's why he's not shooting it. Mixed in with him not having confidence in his ability to score.

I think he'll eventually get there. But it's a long ways away. Year 4 Scottie is when I expect him to be able to have a few go to moves that he will be working on. Results won't be perfect, but that's when I expect to see some results.

I agree with the confidence bit, but as for him not being able to get his shot off I wholeheartedly disagree. He's shown time and time again that he can get his shot off against anyone. What's holding him back is his confidence and belief that him taking the shots that are available to him are the best option for the team.

I think what's holding him back is that a long defender who is good at looking at film can take away Scottie's #1 and #2 scoring moves reasonably easily. Sometimes Scottie can make an impressive shot through that, because of how good he is. However, he just doesn't have enough moves, his footwork is so immature, and he has almost no counters once someone jams him up. No head fakes, no fadeaways.

[Indeed]

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

These guys scrimmage in practice. I'd rather he put up those shots against Pascal and Precious in practice than some G league guy. He's too good for G league

Even with the lesser competition I'm pretty sure a G-league game is more competitive than a scrimmage at practice. We see guys do offseason scrimmages and look like prime Jordan. Again, its less about the people he's playing and more about getting an opportunity to try moves in game situations against guys who are actually trying. I would love if he got to spend 2 weeks down there last year and just focused on getting at least 20 points every night with more than putbacks and hook shots

I am unsure he needs to play games to improve his shooting.
He improved his spot up over the season, but I wish he can improve more over last summer (statistically his shooting is about same from last year, maybe he improved something else over last summer).

And do we need to send Anunoby to G-League as well to improve his offense?

[Los_29]

I guess him starting strong early which lead to us winning with him in the lineup caused him to just stay there out of necessity. Idk maybe it should be the other way around and if we were winning without him or he started really slow/bad he would have got run down there.

I just wish he had a chance to have a run the g-league so he could develop without pressure. Right now its obvious he tries not to do more than he's asked so for a lot of games he looks passive and I don't see it changing unless more guys sit or we officially start overtly tanking and let Scottie do whatever

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

That's what the offseason is for. He's too good to be in the G-League and was far better off in the NBA. He won the ROTY last year.

He is a guy that averaged 10ppg in college. You need to move him along slowly. The team has managed him well so far. Start simple and then slowly expand his game.

Also, I don't think the team is as concerned with making him a lead guy. If he's the lead guy it will come naturally, it won't be because we forced him to become one. The cream always rises to the top.

[ItsDanger]

I'm not proficient at uploading images, its a little too downsized. Top is last season, bottom this season (shot charts from statmuse).

Scottie last season seemed decent at right elbow mid range, seen him practice this a lot. Haven't seen it much this year. I think the spacing with Siakam/Anunoby is cluttered as all 3 like this spot(s) on the floor. Ideally you get a scoring C on the left block and it opens things up more. One of the issues I have with Siakam is that he takes up a lot of floor space for his offense. Everyone else is either cutter/dunker or 3 pt shooter. Mix in Poeltl now and paint is congested as he's at the top or in dunker spot. Add in most of these guys like to go right and you got a traffic jam. I'd guess Scottie's lower efficiency at rim is likely due to defense collapsed in the paint quite often, not respecting Raps 3 pt shooting.

[ForeverTFC]

I'm not proficient at uploading images, its a little too downsized. Top is last season, bottom this season (shot charts from statmuse).

Scottie last season seemed decent at right elbow mid range, seen him practice this a lot. Haven't seen it much this year. I think the spacing with Siakam/Anunoby is cluttered as all 3 like this spot(s) on the floor. Ideally you get a scoring C on the left block and it opens things up more. One of the issues I have with Siakam is that he takes up a lot of floor space for his offense. Everyone else is either cutter/dunker or 3 pt shooter. Mix in Poeltl now and paint is congested as he's at the top or in dunker spot. Add in most of these guys like to go right and you got a traffic jam. I'd guess Scottie's lower efficiency at rim is likely due to defense collapsed in the paint quite often, not respecting Raps 3 pt shooting.

Not sure you can put it all on the spacing and defenses not respecting the 3pt shot because this is largely the same team as last year. I don't think defenses have adjusted that much to how they guard the Raptors as a whole. What they seem to have adjusted to is Scottie, after a full year. Scottie hasn't improved much in terms of shooting and ball handling from last year to this year and so he has little to counter the defense with.

It's obvious to everyone (and I assume to Scottie) what will hold him back from reaching his potential. This summer is key for him; these really aren't skills you build in game, they need to be practiced and honed.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

G-League wouldn't have done much if anything for Scottie. He was getting 35+ minutes a game in the NBA and averaged 15ppg in a reasonably efficient manner considering he was a rookie. He was too good to be down there. Him playing big minutes for a playoff team is much better for his development.

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

That's what the offseason is for. He's too good to be in the G-League and was far better off in the NBA. He won the ROTY last year.

He is a guy that averaged 10ppg in college. You need to move him along slowly. The team has managed him well so far. Start simple and then slowly expand his game.

Also, I don't think the team is as concerned with making him a lead guy. If he's the lead guy it will come naturally, it won't be because we forced him to become one. The cream always rises to the top.

This is all in hindsight lol. This whole comment chain started with I wish he got that opportunity because its too late to do that now. I'm in the camp that game experience is better than off season training alone. Someone like Lauri looked to have comeback from International play a new player having to carry that team.

I look at the offseason as a time to fix ball handling and shooting efficiency and to work on the body, but being able to get stuff off in live play will always be different than practice drills with a coach.

Scottie himself seems to aspire to be "the guy" from some of his goals hes commented on, its just about finding a pathway to get him there. Its also not uncommon for guys to never get a chance to show their expanded games because of team role going back to Lauri. If Scottie is still the number 3-4 guy on offense next year, I doubt he gets to showcase much of his improvements unless Nick forces it.

Even if you train something in the offseason, if you rarely do it in games you're not going to be confident in what youre trying to do when you do pull it out. Its the reason all these centres (and Ben Simmons) that post their off season drills and shots don't impress me. If when real games happen and you're scared or never put yourself in opportunities to use those skills, it won't mean anything

[pingpongrac]

Just in terms of getting reps with the playstyle. Yes he averaged 15 but that was mostly on putbacks, fastbreaks and the random dump offs. If we want him to be a lead guy he's going to need more games like that one random Atlanta game where he got 30 and shot 20+ times. Hes not gonna get those kinds of reps playing with the real team especially if we're actually trying to win games.

That's what the offseason is for. He's too good to be in the G-League and was far better off in the NBA. He won the ROTY last year.

He is a guy that averaged 10ppg in college. You need to move him along slowly. The team has managed him well so far. Start simple and then slowly expand his game.

Also, I don't think the team is as concerned with making him a lead guy. If he's the lead guy it will come naturally, it won't be because we forced him to become one. The cream always rises to the top.

This is all in hindsight lol. This whole comment chain started with I wish he got that opportunity because its too late to do that now. I'm in the camp that game experience is better than off season training alone. Someone like Lauri looked to have comeback from International play a new player having to carry that team.

I look at the offseason as a time to fix ball handling and shooting efficiency and to work on the body, but being able to get stuff off in live play will always be different than practice drills with a coach.

Scottie himself seems to aspire to be "the guy" from some of his goals hes commented on, its just about finding a pathway to get him there. Its also not uncommon for guys to never get a chance to show their expanded games because of team role going back to Lauri. If Scottie is still the number 3-4 guy on offense next year, I doubt he gets to showcase much of his improvements unless Nick forces it.

Even if you train something in the offseason, if you rarely do it in games you're not going to be confident in what youre trying to do when you do pull it out. Its the reason all these centres (and Ben Simmons) that post their off season drills and shots don't impress me. If when real games happen and you're scared or never put yourself in opportunities to use those skills, it won't mean anything

Scottie had that opportunity last season against high-level competition though. He was 3rd in PPG, 3rd in total points and 3rd in FGA among rookies while he also finished with the 2nd most isolation attempts. The numbers among his draft class are similar this season too (5th in PPG, 4th in total points and 4th in FGA while he's 2nd in ISO attempts) and he has had a bit of an increase in his role overall (+0.7 FGA per36, +1.2 USG%, +2.5 front court touches, +0.8 time of possession, etc.). If you dig into his playtype allocation, he's getting more opportunities as "the guy" this season as well as he has a higher frequency of isolation, post-up and PnR ball handler possession. The issue is he has been less efficient in those playtypes (-0.05 PPP in isolation, -0.06 PPP in post-ups and -0.39 PPP in PnR ball handler) as well as his bread and butter last season (-0.13 PPP in transition and -0.28 PPP in putbacks) while his pull-up shooting is also down (-0.12 PPP) which has torpedoed his efficiency. These are all things that Scottie needs to get better at for him to get to the next level, but they are things he needs to work on against NBA-level players. Working on his craft in the G-League would be meaningless at this point because he wouldn't be improving by beating up on bad players/teams.

Comparing Scottie to a player like Markkanen doesn't make sense because their style of play is so wildly different. Scottie has twice as many ISO possessions (1.9 vs 1.1) and PnR ball handler possessions (1.6 vs 0.8) as Markkanen while Markkanen has twice as many spot-up + off-screen possessions (7.3 vs 3.5) and 0 dribble FGA (10.4 vs 5.4). Markkanen has always been a good jump shooter on high-volume which gives him a leg up when it comes to scoring on increased usage. To put it into perspective, he has played ~150 less minutes than Scottie this season yet he has almost made as many threes (170) as Scottie has attempted (183).