Post-game : Knicks beat the breaks off the NJ nets while Ben Simmons was shook

[robillionaire]

oh another factor is IQ wouldn't have thrived either playing behind two offensive guards. And you would have to start both Brunson and Mitchell (because Grimes was being traded) so who is guarding the oppositions best offensive weapon from the outset or to finish games?

We can argue until the cows come home who drew the line in the sand and who was surprised or shocked...but I don't think someone can argue we would be in a better position right now if we did go through with the Mitchell trade.

I easily could but I won’t

[Synciere]

To me, a guy like Murphy is still a margins type move

Makes us better, but won't take us over the top

If we're talking about RJ plus picks, that's kind of the base we'd use for a star, so my math is, once you trade that, that's kind of it. So we gotta hit on whoever we get with that package

Unless you think there's a way we can get Murphy and Embiid without giving up any of Brunson/Grimes/Randle. That's my thing, we need another high level shot creator to make sure the offense is sustainable in the playoffs, cause I don't trust Randle and I don't think Grimes has that potential. But Brunson/Grimes/Murphy/Randle/Embiid with Quick and Hart off the bench would be a fantastic core imo.

I can’t see Philly trading Embiid. And in Murphy I see a guy who is only scratching the surface. He is not a shot creator but I project him to eventually have star impact playing off others. Kind of like Klay. The thing is it’s still early in his development and the Pelicans are so deep they aren’t really maximizing Murphy by allowing him to shoot on higher volumes.

Griffin would probably bite on RJ + picks as it’d reunite Zion and RJ which would be good PR, while thinning the herd a bit for them and acquiring assets. We could have them match salary by throwing in additional players. Nance and/or Alvarado plus filler.

If Philly loses in the playoffs early again, I don't think Joel will give them a choice.

Even if he does, no way Philly moves him to a division rival. Philly and New York are not making a huge trade like that.

[Fury]

Knicks were decisive on Son of Rick Brunson and indecisive on Mitchell. They also broke the Charlie Ward curse twice with RJ and Mitch. Without that, good luck would have been impossible. Good offseason.

one was a free agent. if they could have signed mitchell outright too, or the jazz took their first offer, you think they would have hesitated ?

No. Not sure what your point is. They hesitated on the price.

[RHODEY]

all the reports said the knicks were caught off guard when mitchell was traded to cleveland, not that they turned it down. they expected to eventually reach a deal. i don't care about not getting him now but that's rewriting history.

True but they also signed RJ long term just prior. I thought the context of them being shocked wasn’t that DM got traded, but that Utah immediately traded him for assets in line with what NY had already offered. It wasn’t even a long process they just took the offer.

Same thing happened with Beasley and Vanderbilt. They made a fair offer Fournier, Toppin, and a draft pick and Ainge continues to try and rob them for additional assets and demanded another first rounder. Meanwhile he took Westbrook, scrap and a first to do the deal. Ainge either loathe’s the Knicks or has them categorized as a team to always exploit. Rose and them twice now approached Ainge on a fair trade bit.

I say all that to say this. You can’t judge Rose to Harshly regarding Utah. Ainge is working off an agenda to overcharge the Knicks everytime they engage.

I judge Rose positively for not allowing himself to get fleeced.

[robillionaire]

Knicks were decisive on Son of Rick Brunson and indecisive on Mitchell. They also broke the Charlie Ward curse twice with RJ and Mitch. Without that, good luck would have been impossible. Good offseason.

one was a free agent. if they could have signed mitchell outright too, or the jazz took their first offer, you think they would have hesitated ?

No. Not sure what your point is. They hesitated on the price.

Or they just got greedy

I mean if I see a guy selling a car on the internet for $10,000 and I want the car and think that’s a good price but think hey, I’m slick, I’m a wheeler and dealer, I’m going to haggle this guy down to $9,000, and then while we are having a back and forth someone offers the whole $10,000 and they sell it out from under me, it doesn’t mean I thought the initial price was unfair, I just got greedy

Leon didn’t want to be viewed as “the guy who got ripped off by ainge” and decided he wanted to wheel and deal (not necessarily a bad thing, we want him to get us good deals) and in the meantime another team decided they were willing to pay the full asking price. So we didn’t get the car

Now we can only hope Leon has a plan B

[8516knicks]

Just gotta say again because it IS amazing - the Knicks again had a huge rebounding differential - plus 15 rebounds over the Nets!

[Fury]

one was a free agent. if they could have signed mitchell outright too, or the jazz took their first offer, you think they would have hesitated ?

No. Not sure what your point is. They hesitated on the price.

Or they just got greedy

I mean if I see a guy selling a car on the internet for $10,000 and I want the car and think that’s a good price but think hey, I’m slick, I’m a wheeler and dealer, I’m going to haggle this guy down to $9,000, and then while we are having a back and forth someone offers the whole $10,000 and they sell it out from under me, it doesn’t mean I thought the initial price was unfair, I just got greedy

Leon didn’t want to be viewed as “the guy who got ripped off by ainge” and decided he wanted to wheel and deal (not necessarily a bad thing, we want him to get us good deals) and in the meantime another team decided they were willing to pay the full asking price. So we didn’t get the car

Now we can only hope Leon has a plan B

Two paragraphs of conjecture

Fact: They hesitated on the price

[mpharris36]

whether its getting lucky or being good Leon has had a lot of things fall his way this year.

Brunson signing
The Donovan Mitchell deal not being completed
The trade for Reddish that didn't work out but then led to the acquisition of Hart

We are legit good now and with how good Brunson is playing and the depth of our team...you can legit say we are probably 1 piece away from being a contender.

Leon deserves credit for getting a lot of the things on the margins right. Gives you a lot more room for error on the big things and makes it easier to fix past mistakes.

Having Deuce be a competent rotation piece as a 2nd rounder allowed Thibs to drop Cam.

When Mitch goes down the Knicks can still put out a competent C rotation because he hit on Sims as a late 2nd round pick.

Having Quickley and Grimes be major parts of the rotation as late 1st round picks allowed him the ability to pivot a lot easier off of the disaster of last year because you could bank on rookie scale guys giving you solid production this year.

The Knicks of the past would have had trouble swinging a trade for Hart because we would have been too worried about our future asset pool. Now that we have young guys and a plethora of picks it makes it easier to swallow giving up a 1st this year.

Those little wins on the margins add up over time. Many teams don't hit on more than one late 1st or second round picks and Leon has hit on a few now.

I would say less Leon and more Walt Perrin. I think Obi was a Leon pick. I think the later 1st round picks where we have made a lot of headway with our Walt Perrin picks. Yes hiring Walt Perrin was a really good move from Leon...but we were pretty mid which was frustrating because it was tough to see where this was going other than hoping and praying for a star to come around.

Now the Jalen Brunson move kinda set us off. Getting him I don't know anyone who could have projected his impact on this team. He has to be one of the best guards in he entire sport and doing it with great EFF.

IQ natural development then add in the Hart trade which again has had another great impact on the team.

And Julius returning back to his form from 2 years ago.

All these factors have impacted us...I am really curious how legit this is. Are we a legit threat to a team in the playoffs? I want to believe that but only time will tell.

So far his moves this year seem to be making up for the disaster of last year with Fournier/Rose/Noel ect...and its interesting all this year was signing brunson and trusting our young players.

[duetta]

I judge Rose positively for not allowing himself to get fleeced.

Exactly. Management thought that it would need another, better piece to pair with Mitchell, and wanted to save assets for that trade. As it turns out, they may have lucked out big time by instead allowing their home-grown pieces to develop.

Between Randle and Brunson, the last thing we need is a ball-dominant scorer (who is also a sub-par defender).

[robillionaire]

No. Not sure what your point is. They hesitated on the price.

Or they just got greedy

I mean if I see a guy selling a car on the internet for $10,000 and I want the car and think that’s a good price but think hey, I’m slick, I’m a wheeler and dealer, I’m going to haggle this guy down to $9,000, and then while we are having a back and forth someone offers the whole $10,000 and they sell it out from under me, it doesn’t mean I thought the initial price was unfair, I just got greedy

Leon didn’t want to be viewed as “the guy who got ripped off by ainge” and decided he wanted to wheel and deal (not necessarily a bad thing, we want him to get us good deals) and in the meantime another team decided they were willing to pay the full asking price. So we didn’t get the car

Now we can only hope Leon has a plan B

Two paragraphs of conjecture

Fact: They hesitated on the price

Well I deeply regret wasting my time typing it that’s for sure

It’s not a fact, you don’t know their mindset

[moocow007]

This is definitely a tougher minded Knicks team than any team we've seen in a while and for some of you young guys ever.

[Gravy]

one was a free agent. if they could have signed mitchell outright too, or the jazz took their first offer, you think they would have hesitated ?

No. Not sure what your point is. They hesitated on the price.

Or they just got greedy

I mean if I see a guy selling a car on the internet for $10,000 and I want the car and think that’s a good price but think hey, I’m slick, I’m a wheeler and dealer, I’m going to haggle this guy down to $9,000, and then while we are having a back and forth someone offers the whole $10,000 and they sell it out from under me, it doesn’t mean I thought the initial price was unfair, I just got greedy

Leon didn’t want to be viewed as “the guy who got ripped off by ainge” and decided he wanted to wheel and deal (not necessarily a bad thing, we want him to get us good deals) and in the meantime another team decided they were willing to pay the full asking price. So we didn’t get the car

Now we can only hope Leon has a plan B

We could be watching plan B right now. They made Grimes untouchable for DM and signed RJ so maybe this is plan A and DMitchell was a fun trade to toy around with. They had Rosas negotiate who we assume is not as important/qualified as Leon...who knows

[2010]

I can’t see Philly trading Embiid. And in Murphy I see a guy who is only scratching the surface. He is not a shot creator but I project him to eventually have star impact playing off others. Kind of like Klay. The thing is it’s still early in his development and the Pelicans are so deep they aren’t really maximizing Murphy by allowing him to shoot on higher volumes.

Griffin would probably bite on RJ + picks as it’d reunite Zion and RJ which would be good PR, while thinning the herd a bit for them and acquiring assets. We could have them match salary by throwing in additional players. Nance and/or Alvarado plus filler.

If Philly loses in the playoffs early again, I don't think Joel will give them a choice.

Even if he does, no way Philly moves him to a division rival. Philly and New York are not making a huge trade like that.

Nevermind the Embiid pipe dream. I’d pursue this deal:

RJ Barrett
+ draft capital

— FOR —

Trey Murphy III
Jose Alvarado
Josh Richardson
Jaxson Hayes (expiring)

This is more in the mold of how our team is being built. Murphy is still ascending and can play off anyone seamlessly — he plays team ball better than RJ and is way more efficient. Alvarado is from NYC and just feels like a Knick! Richardson will only have 1 year left on his deal and Hayes is an expiring.

The math works and I believe David Griffin would pull the trigger on this. It reunites RJ with Zion (good PR) and it thins the herd for a too deep Pelicans team. The draft capital is gravy and would make him feel like he won the deal (when in actuality he wouldn’t). RJ would replace Murphy as a young wing and the Pelicans already have Dyson Daniels to replace Alvarado.

I’m pounding the table and screaming at the top of my lungs that this trade would make us so good and put us over the top without star phuccing. We would assemble the greatest fluidly playing team since the Knicks two 70s championship squads. And they would all be young and in position to grow for years as perennial beasts of the East!

If ya’ll were smitten with the Randle | Bullock two-man game then just close your eyes and imagine Randle | Murphy doing the same.

DREAM WITH ME
Brunson | Alvarado
Grimes | Quickley
Murphy III | Hart
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein

…that TEAM is coming out of the East.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

I hate that we keep talking about this but the Knicks extended RJ prior to Utah making the deal with Clev. Negotiations had to start over, or end as they did. A lot of people killed the Knicks for that, but they had a price and deadline and walked away from the deal that was being negotiated.

regardless of your feelings of RJ. However it happened. Whether they intended to completely walk away by eventually signing RJ to the extension or they were trying to use there last leverage player to Utah...it worked out for the better.

I love Donovan Mitchell but lets be honest...Brunson would not be this Brunson with Mitchell. That might be a bit good fortune because Mitchell is a huge offensive weapon. But now Brunson is just as good IMO. And now we can better use our assets and resources to find a better fit to put us over the top.

You have a **** tonne of plus ones for this and your next post. And I usually think your views are pretty good. So, is "a better fit to put us over the top" essentially a taller version of Mitchell who plays better defence? If it's that then that reduces all of the things you claim are benefits coming form iq and Grimes. If not, then what non high usage player is putting the Knicks over the top? More simply, what would be the fit?

[robillionaire]

No. Not sure what your point is. They hesitated on the price.

Or they just got greedy

I mean if I see a guy selling a car on the internet for $10,000 and I want the car and think that’s a good price but think hey, I’m slick, I’m a wheeler and dealer, I’m going to haggle this guy down to $9,000, and then while we are having a back and forth someone offers the whole $10,000 and they sell it out from under me, it doesn’t mean I thought the initial price was unfair, I just got greedy

Leon didn’t want to be viewed as “the guy who got ripped off by ainge” and decided he wanted to wheel and deal (not necessarily a bad thing, we want him to get us good deals) and in the meantime another team decided they were willing to pay the full asking price. So we didn’t get the car

Now we can only hope Leon has a plan B

We could be watching plan B right now. They made Grimes untouchable for DM and signed RJ so maybe this is plan A and DMitchell was a fun trade to toy around with. They had Rosas negotiate who we assume is not as important/qualified as Leon...who knows

Leon has a lot of connections around the league and with CAA

I gotta believe he’s thinking he could afford to not get Donovan and still have someone else on the back burner he can entice to be here in the coming years. We heard a lot of chatter about him looking at 2024 for something. At least that’s me being optimistic.

Plus now we have a pretty solid team nobody will think isn’t worth adding to. And we will have a better idea who our keepers are

And yeah I have no idea about the Rosas thing.

[8516knicks]

Donovan Mitchell.

Because a thread can never have enough Donovan Mitchell references.

That is all.

[thebuzzardman]

i actually think you can trust sports reporting more than regular reporting nowadays. in the current times, sports reporters care more about their reputation and will triple check info they get and usually report without bias. it's why you actually don't have a ton of nba rumors like you used to in the press. the hacks have been weeded out of the business. the old guard of guys who spread rumors and go negative like berman/isola have been replaced by the fred katz/ian begley types who don't engage in that kind of behavior. now the rumors mostly come from guys green arrow shares from twitter.

Fixed

[thebuzzardman]

i would guess it has to do with analytics becoming very prevalent across sports. sports reporters used to be these crusty miserable old guys who smoked cigars and had bad diets and now they're all young nerdy types who attended good colleges and have a bachelors of science in statistics.

So, basically the ODD COUPLE facing off?

(just reread a Neil Simon play)

yes felix took oscar's job

[Gravy]

Or they just got greedy

I mean if I see a guy selling a car on the internet for $10,000 and I want the car and think that’s a good price but think hey, I’m slick, I’m a wheeler and dealer, I’m going to haggle this guy down to $9,000, and then while we are having a back and forth someone offers the whole $10,000 and they sell it out from under me, it doesn’t mean I thought the initial price was unfair, I just got greedy

Leon didn’t want to be viewed as “the guy who got ripped off by ainge” and decided he wanted to wheel and deal (not necessarily a bad thing, we want him to get us good deals) and in the meantime another team decided they were willing to pay the full asking price. So we didn’t get the car

Now we can only hope Leon has a plan B

We could be watching plan B right now. They made Grimes untouchable for DM and signed RJ so maybe this is plan A and DMitchell was a fun trade to toy around with. They had Rosas negotiate who we assume is not as important/qualified as Leon...who knows

Leon has a lot of connections around the league and with CAA

I gotta believe he’s thinking he could afford to not get Donovan and still have someone else on the back burner he can entice to be here in the coming years. We heard a lot of chatter about him looking at 2024 for something. At least that’s me being optimistic.

Plus now we have a pretty solid team nobody will think isn’t worth adding to. And we will have a better idea who our keepers are

And yeah I have no idea about the Rosas thing.

He's saving his chips because something always comes along in the NBA whether its expected or unexpected. A month ago the Suns didnt know Durant would be on their roster, thats really crazy to think about. I was pissed we did not get DM at the time but it could be a great non-trade in the long run, depends what happens.

[thebuzzardman]

If Philly loses in the playoffs early again, I don't think Joel will give them a choice.

Even if he does, no way Philly moves him to a division rival. Philly and New York are not making a huge trade like that.

Nevermind the Embiid pipe dream. I’d pursue this deal:

RJ Barrett
+ draft capital

— FOR —

Trey Murphy III
Jose Alvarado
Josh Richardson
Jaxson Hayes (expiring)

This is more in the mold of how our team is being built. Murphy is still ascending and can play off anyone seamlessly — he plays team ball better than RJ and is way more efficient. Alvarado is from NYC and just feels like a Knick! Richardson will only have 1 year left on his deal and Hayes is an expiring.

The math works and I believe David Griffin would pull the trigger on this. It reunites RJ with Zion (good PR) and it thins the herd for a too deep Pelicans team. The draft capital is gravy and would make him feel like he won the deal (when in actuality he wouldn’t). RJ would replace Murphy as a young wing and the Pelicans already have Dyson Daniels to replace Alvarado.

I’m pounding the table and screaming at the top of my lungs that this trade would make us so good and put us over the top without star phuccing. We would assemble the greatest fluidly playing team since the Knicks two 70s championship squads. And they would all be young and in position to grow for years as perennial beasts of the East!

If ya’ll were smitten with the Randle | Bullock two-man game then just close your eyes and imagine Randle | Murphy doing the same.

DREAM WITH ME
Brunson | Alvarado
Grimes | Quickley
Murphy III | Hart
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein

…that TEAM is coming out of the East.

Might as well save a little draft capital and trade them McBride, since he won't play if Alvarado is here.