Is it time to blow it up and start collecting ping pong balls?

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Its very hard to get a generational star by tanking to get a Top pick.
Let's see the Top5 picks in the draft from 2013 to 2020.
2013 - No generational stars (Dipo was the best player).
2014 - Just Embiid - the third pick (Cant count Wiggins)
2015 - No generational stars (Towns and KP are far away to be generational)
2016 - No generational stars. (Ingram and Brown can be considered eventually but not right now).
2017 - Tantum. Third pick (Fox until last year was a disappointment).
2018 - Doncic and Trae - Third and Fifth pick
2019 - Zion, Morant, and Garland - First, second and fifth pick.
2020 - Edwards and LaMello - First and third pick.
Too soon to analyze the last 2 years IMO.

There were 9 generational players in the Top 5 pick in 8 years of the draft (7 in the Top3). On average, it's about one per year. And in most years, the generational one is not that obvious. Can you calculate the odds to get one of them?

Probably, if we have one of the worse teams in the league, it
can be doable. Because at least the odds to get one a Top5 or even a Top3 pick would be good. You would have more than 20% to get a generational player.

But if we do not have a totally crap team with plenty of rookies, the odds to get a really high pick are slim. You have to add the small odds to get a Top 4 pick and the small odds that the top 4 picks be a generational player.

So you don't consider KAT generational but you consider Garland as one?

Even if you adjust the "generational talents", I agree with his overall point. Tanking isn't the magic fix many people seem to think it is. Teams still have to land the right player AND build around that player. Lots of generational talents are stuck on mediocre teams that aren't going very far.

Zion was probably the most hyped draft prospect in the last 10 years, but he's injury prone and might never carry his team into the finals. Ja however, looks legit, and if the Knicks had landed the 2nd pick, not the first or 3rd, this team might be in a different place right now.

or had they draft DM instead of Frank. And some of that is luck not skill. DM was picked #13 so a bunch of teams passed on him. Giannis was drafted #15. Dirk (and I realize I'm going into ancient history a little with this one), drafted 9th. I think a team needs a combination of tanking and luck, and when they have that key player, they need to build around them the right way. It's not a simple process. Would tanking more often have helped? Probably, but nobody should think that tanking is a sure thing. Lots of teams tend to stay bad in the NBA, only a few really succeed.

Jokic #41

[Grinditout]

I'm all for the wins, but if you're reading this right now during the streak, look forward at the end of April, if they get bounced in the first round do your feelings change?

[8516knicks]

Rj was a third pick. KP was 4th pick. Kind of kills the tanker zeal. It's just as much of a luck out getting a "generational" player as winning a championship. Even if they lose first round I like what we've got more than any Knick team since Ewing. Stay the course as it is. We have as good a chance of finding a good player like Mitch R. or Grimes as anyone. And if someone's calling Trae and Zion generaltional that must make Brunson all-galactic!

[moocow007]

I think purposely setting up yourself to lose games is just not a good strategy for building a winning culture in the long run.. Yes having generational talent is important but it’s not like that is the only/best way Toronto got a chip by building a team and being prepared for the right opportunity. MLK developed a generational talent from the 15th pick and GS developed a championship team from the 7th pick 11th pick and a second round choice. The important piece is drafting the best player you can while considering fit development and maintaining flexibility. Had the Knicks do the actual right thing and drafted Haliburten instead of Obi (I think this pick was most Egregious as we had Randle on the squad and a need at the position and More of a no brainer as Knox/Frank in hindsight) all else equal we would have formidable team that would be on the verge of contention and that Mitchell trade would of made a lot more sense to make if that was your cup of tea. Personally I don’t think I would have entertained that trade if we had Hali instead of Obi but that’s a different conversation.

Yeah agreed. At the end of the day the things you can control are not lottery ball combinations but staffing that can properly to ID talent and build teams that work well with one another.

[robillionaire]

I'm all for the wins, but if you're reading this right now during the streak, look forward at the end of April, if they get bounced in the first round do your feelings change?

Nope

I mean for a lot of people who want to tank that’s the narrative that’s going to be pushed as it also was in 2021

But no. We are building something here. This is a process

[robillionaire]

Rj was a third pick. KP was 4th pick. Kind of kills the tanker zeal. It's just as much of a luck out getting a "generational" player as winning a championship. Even if they lose first round I like what we've got more than any Knick team since Ewing. Stay the course as it is. We have as good a chance of finding a good player like Mitch R. or Grimes as anyone. And if someone's calling Trae and Zion generaltional that must make Brunson all-galactic!

You can even add our top 10 picks to the mix with Frank, Knox, and Toppin. And then look where we selected our best prospects, IQ, Grimes, and Mitch. I know it’s not the statistical norm and can’t explain it, but our best picks are coming late first early second and they can’t draft properly at the top or win the lotto ever. And the lottery odds got exponentially worse in 2019. So I’m out on that.

Maybe proper competent team building and culture building really is the principled way to run a team instead of trying to suck your way into a quick fix miracle over and over

[Galou]

Smh lmao
Boy boy boy

Im glad I wasn't part of those fans that $h!++ed on Knicks the beginning of the season.

Sheesh

[dakomish23]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

They’ll be back on this side anyway next losing streak

[spree2kawhi]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

They’ll be back on this side anyway next losing streak

This team is still not as good as people make it seem right now. It is fun of course to win some games but the talent level is still not there yet. We need a franchise player. There are going to be 16 playoff teams. We’ll probably have the worst franchise player among them.

Tanking is off the table but this team will be eliminated in the first round and you all should try and remain level headed. It is just the reality that we’re still a Doncic or Embiid away (not even LaVine or other wannabes like him).

[thebuzzardman]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

They’ll be back on this side anyway next losing streak

This team is still not as good as people make it seem right now. It is fun of course to win some games but the talent level is still not there yet. We need a franchise player. There are going to be 16 playoff teams. We’ll probably have the worst franchise player among them.

Tanking is off the table but this team will be eliminated in the first round and you all should try and remain level headed. It is just the reality that we’re still a Doncic or Embiid away (not even LaVine or other wannabes like him).

True. But look at the team and how well Randle and Brunson have played, and played relative to their contract.
Then see they have a good mix of role players.
I get other teams have some nice young players too, but this team has a nice 2-7 or 8 .

I think it can have some appeal to that star player looking to put a team over the top.
How that happens and without gutting the team? Don't know.

[GONYK]

Whether you believe in tanking or not, what is undeniable is this team very clearly had a chance to improve this season, and they did so to the point where they are a top 10 team in the league right now.

Perhaps the overall lesson is that a season is long and teams can figure it out as they go.

[Grinditout]

What can be understated is that alot of the current winning is supported by some of the youth the team has, like Grimes and Quickley. If those 2 plus RJ can continue improve, it bodes well for the team's competitiveness in the coming years. Brunson and Randle also still have alot of mileage left in them

[GONYK]

What can be understated is that alot of the current winning is supported by some of the youth the team has, like Grimes and Quickley. If those 2 plus RJ can continue improve, it bodes well for the team's competitiveness in the coming years. Brunson and Randle also still have alot of mileage left in them

The oldest rotation player is 28.

That's the big difference between the "We Here" team, which wildly overachieved on defense alone, or even the 2012 team.

Those teams were built on things that weren't sustainable. This team is truly built from the ground up. It's foundational.

This is literally what a rebuild looks like.

[Fat Kat]

They tested 2000 participants that admittedly preferred tanking as a method for team building. In almost all of those tested, they found elevated levels of estrogen, a propensity for obesity and an elevated addiction to bodega scratch-offs.

[Capn'O]

Whether you believe in tanking or not, what is undeniable is this team very clearly had a chance to improve this season, and they did so to the point where they are a top 10 team in the league right now.

Perhaps the overall lesson is that a season is long and teams can figure it out as they go.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been impressed and surprised that Thibs moved Evan and Rose to the bench. I'm still not entirely sure what possessed them to sign Evan in the first place but he's been a great, if overpaid, cheerleader and all around good guy. As I mentioned many times in the offseason, the franchise had some steps to take before truly moving forward and so far they've taken them. The first was to triage their rotation and young talent based on actual effectiveness vs. seniority and I give them a lot of credit for actually doing it. Then going after a glue player like Hart instead of a talented but ill fitting one like Lavine maximized the pieces they're using. A very disciplined and foresightful approach. Who would have thought? Not me.

[Spot31]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

Agreed. "I hate Thibs and his old school ways. Randle sucks play Obi instead. RJ is only 22 be patient, he might be the second coming of Kobe Bryant someday. Free Cam! We should be tanking to get this french unicorn Wembanyama, we're only a play in team anyway." GET OFF THE BANDWAGON!

[Gravy]

Lets take a look at the top picks in the All Time Greatest draft in history that we missed out on by not trading Randle

Cade Cunningham
Jalen Green
Evan Mobley
Scottie Barnes
Jalen Suggs
Josh Giddey
Jonathan Kuminga

How many championships have they lead their team to in the last few years? Did getting this player at least fix their team and turn them into contenders?

[Jalen Bluntson]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

They’ll be back on this side anyway next losing streak

This team is still not as good as people make it seem right now. It is fun of course to win some games but the talent level is still not there yet. We need a franchise player. There are going to be 16 playoff teams. We’ll probably have the worst franchise player among them.

Tanking is off the table but this team will be eliminated in the first round and you all should try and remain level headed. It is just the reality that we’re still a Doncic or Embiid away (not even LaVine or other wannabes like him).

Brunson is a Franchise player.
Randle is an all star.
IQ is 6MOY candidate.
Hart is the glue guy.
Mitch is a defensive anchor.
The bench is deep.
RJ is the weakest link which, isn't that bad for a team to have as a problem.

I think we are better than some give us credit for. We don't have a bonafide top tier player. That's where we fall short. We have a blue collar team. '04 Pistons comps are off the mark but, not by much. We are close to contention as we stand. How we improve is the next chapter.

[8516knicks]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

They’ll be back on this side anyway next losing streak

I think tankers were just looking for some sign of hope.

Last year there were few indications anything could change our usual Knick depression.

Suddenly, after some good moves (JB, Hart, even Ihart) and revived promise (IQ, Mitch, Grimes) and change of heart/attitude (Randle) we've burst out of the bottom half of the league flirting with being a top 6 team.

And even RJ comes through on occasion when needed like game before last.

It's making Thibs look good, Rose look good, even Dolan look good. And even die hard takers feel good.

[spree2kawhi]

They’ll be back on this side anyway next losing streak

This team is still not as good as people make it seem right now. It is fun of course to win some games but the talent level is still not there yet. We need a franchise player. There are going to be 16 playoff teams. We’ll probably have the worst franchise player among them.

Tanking is off the table but this team will be eliminated in the first round and you all should try and remain level headed. It is just the reality that we’re still a Doncic or Embiid away (not even LaVine or other wannabes like him).

True. But look at the team and how well Randle and Brunson have played, and played relative to their contract.
Then see they have a good mix of role players.
I get other teams have some nice young players too, but this team has a nice 2-7 or 8 .

I think it can have some appeal to that star player looking to put a team over the top.
How that happens and without gutting the team? Don't know.

Yes no doubt. Randle will be an incredible third option. And need to be just that of course.