Draymond: “European players have not caught the same flak of winning a championship as US players

[skones]

To be fair, we should've won that Raptors series. Kawhi or not Kawhi we could've closed them off in that overtime, or in that G7 at home. And Giannis didn't play very well by his standards, he was a bit rough to watch at times. I can't recall Jokic ever not playing well in the play offs, and half the time his best teammate was Barton (who got cut this year).

For the last three years, Jokic's defenses have been absolutely toasted with him on the floor vs. him off.

I think he was actually tied for the best D rating on his team against the Warriors last playoffs.
No one is saying he's an elite defender but his bad defense has been generally overstated imo, and the media and casual fans have always cared more about offense so I don't think that's a byproduct of people protecting Jokic or anything.
Steph has also been targeted on defense in the past and I don't remember it being a big indictment of his overall value as a player, as just one example (Luka, Harden, KAT, Dame, Kyrie, young KD, prime Westbrook -- all these guys get or got pretty minimal criticism for their bad defense, and there are many more examples).

When you are a big, and your defenses go into the playoffs and post DRTGs of 125.4, 124.7, and 119.0, you deserve criticism. It's really that simple. Steph isn't a big, his overall defensive responsibilities pale in comparison to that of a big.

[Blame Rasho]

Well this is BS. I’ve never seen a player hated on as viciously for “choking” in the playoffs as Dirk was the summer of 07 and the next few seasons after.

Also, Giannis got a whole ton of flak for losing to the Heat. Despite being European he somehow didn’t escape unscathed from that.

You’re seeing the hate on Jokic just get louder all the time, and it hasn’t fully started on Luka yet but believe me it’s coming. He’s next on the chopping block these next couple of years if the Mavs don’t win a title.

I concur. Credit to Dirk playing like a MoFo in the 2011 season. People forget that the season before, the Mass lost as a 2 seed to the most blah version of the Spurs.

He was known as a flake, loser and the dreaded soft label for years. My respects to him for that amazing run in 2011.

[HotRocks34]

Even if thats what he means. Whats wrong with that?

I don't think it's accurate.

Well if we talking about players like Jokic. He does not have the expectations and pressure of winning championships like the Brons, Kds of the world

This is not right.

Despite having no All-Stars as teammates, Jokic's "big three" (Jokic, Murray, Porter) has had four years together, including this year. That's the time when supposedly he'd be competing for titles.

Here's how that's looked in the playoffs.

2020 -------------> Jokic, Murray are starters..................Porter is a rookie bench guy.................WCF (Bubble Murray)
2021 -------------> Jokic and Porter starters...................Murray out with injury........................lose to NBA Finalist Suns
2022 -------------> Jokic a starter................................Murray, Porter out with injury...............lose to NBA Champion Warriors
2023 -------------> ??????????????????...............................????????????????????????????????...................??????????????????????????

So, we haven't yet seen a Denver run with all of their "Big Three" healthy and as starters.

Hard to win titles when guys are hurt or are rookie bench guys.

How many titles did Jordan win without Pippen?

Of course Jokic has pressure. But getting a grip on the facts helps point out the lack of context in remarks like Draymond's.

[Pachinko_]

For the last three years, Jokic's defenses have been absolutely toasted with him on the floor vs. him off.

Where are you getting that from? Jokic’s on/off numbers this season show the exact opposite. They’re better on defense with him on the court.

In the playoffs specifically.

5.1 points better with him off defensively last year
3.3 points better with him off defensively the year prior
11.1 points better with him off defensively the year before that.

Based on where their DRTG stood during the regular season, vs where they became woefully ill equipped in the playoffs? Jokic deserves a ton of flak for that.

Interesting, I hadn't seen that, thanks.

[Ben-N1ce]

Sound like a stealth brag about himself carrying GS to multiple titles with all the pressure on him.

[Jedi32]

Jokic was in fact drafted during taco bell commercial, we are just glad we got all time great out of nowhere. WIth LeBron and KD, they were touted to be all time greats when they were still children, the expectations momentum with them was always way more rapid than most players.
Guys Like Jimmy Butler, 5'9 Isiaih Thomas, were great players, MVP conversation guys and american, but they never got same expectations either, because they weren't the guys coming into the league, not even close.

This is the best post/response in this thread. Everyone trying to diss draymond sound just if not more butt hurt than they claim he does.

[Mr B]

Yeah, because they're not teaming up like you guys and they openly say they're not into building superteams and tampering.

This!

[Cubbies2120]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=XUVPAdseiQqcZtSdDQaQmA

Which US player got flak for not winning a championship when their 2nd and 3rd best players were injured? I know Curry didn't get flak for not only not winning it all with Klay injured, but missing the playoffs entirely...? So who is he referring to that DID get flak while missing his 2nd/3rd best player?

Which one is it?

- Jokic shouldn't be MVP
- Jokic should be MVP but also have expectations set on him to win it all without his #2/3 options which no player in NBA history has done?

If you're gonna give Jokic flak for not getting it done last year, you're holding him to literal GOAT standards

[Optms]

I feel like he wants to say white but is using European instead.

I don't see that at all. Unless you think only white players are European? Giannis didn't get much flak from the media before winning the title so it holds true, despite the Bucks perennially being elite in the regular season for years before their title.

You are seeing the same thing now with Jokic. Redick for example can't stop slurping on him. The media seems to give Euro players a heavy pass for whatever reason. Guys like Lebron went years getting criticized despite playing like a god in the playoffs. KD still gets ripped for his piggy backed titles. Kyrie is another. There is weight to what he's saying here. All these guys need to be held to the same standard. Giannis obviously has his chip so not him. But guys like Jokic for sure, and Luka is another, but his team is dog poo so he has an excuse for now.

[Optms]

Dirk got a lot of flack until he won in 2011. Funny how the narrative changes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was seen as a soft Euro jump-shooting big that couldn't get it done when it mattered.

That flak came entirely from his historic choke job to an 8th seed though. It was warrented too. If Dirk didn't win in 2011, he would barely been seen as a top 50 player. That title meant a lot.

[AussieCeltic]

The xenophobia in the NBA has been rife over the last few years. It’s flat out embarrassing guys like Perkins and Green can get away with this stuff. Imagine I’d a guy like Jokic or a retired euro like Nowitzki said this stuff about US stars.

[Mickey8]

Its media's fault with their wokeness themes they are propagating . They want to stir up racial thing in the NBA.

[NCHeels2008]

There is a real nativist problem with American players in the NBA you can see it in how they rank their int'l colleagues.

[NCHeels2008]

I feel like he wants to say white but is using European instead.

I don't see that at all. Unless you think only white players are European? Giannis didn't get much flak from the media before winning the title so it holds true, despite the Bucks perennially being elite in the regular season for years before their title.

You are seeing the same thing now with Jokic. Redick for example can't stop slurping on him. The media seems to give Euro players a heavy pass for whatever reason. Guys like Lebron went years getting criticized despite playing like a god in the playoffs. KD still gets ripped for his piggy backed titles. Kyrie is another. There is weight to what he's saying here. All these guys need to be held to the same standard. Giannis obviously has his chip so not him. But guys like Jokic for sure, and Luka is another, but his team is dog poo so he has an excuse for now.

Nobody was calling the Bucks a super team either though. Unless you think Middleton, Bledsoe and Lopez is some OP supporting cast.

[jokeboy86]

Stupid thing to say, but I DO think Jokic gets a lot less flak than Giannis did and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Giannis was more or less discounted from winning the 20-21 MVP because of his playoff failures while folks are ready to anoint Jokic for the third time and ignore his lack of success.

Giannis did get more flak and there are a couple reasons. One because during his rise it was when Durant and Lebron were still very high in the casual media’s eyes and they thought no one should be mentioned in the same breath as them unlike now where its hard to make a case that they are undisputedly the best two players in the game. Two, is because of Giannis’s play style. Its only been the last three years(since the ring) where people have had to shut up about Giannis’s game where before the ring it was constantly brought up on why he couldnt ever be the best in the game. And last the reason Giannis was clearly getting more flak than Jokic is because not only was he getting heat about his game from the media but also from ex-players and current players much more loudly. I’ve yet to hear any ex-players or current players diss Jokic’s game. Everytime I hear a player or any NBA analyst talk about his game its glowing praise. The media hate is all about marketability and the fact that he’s a boring athlete in Denver

[Pachinko_]

Giannis didn't get much flak from the media before winning the title so it holds true, despite the Bucks perennially being elite in the regular season for years before their title.

No of course they didn't give him flak, they didn't even speak about him at all like he didn't even exist. Even after the title it was like maybe one day before they went back to talking about the Lakers.

These people "give flak" only to those guys that have armies of fans who will bite, and then you have a successful show. Make a show about Giannis, especially back then, and you have 10 people from Milwaukee and 5 from Greece watching it.

It's not that hard to understand how media works.

[mattg]

As a bucks fan, Giannis IMO deserved the hate he got for his playoff woes vs Toronto. He legit played like a total moron repeatedly. Like his series vs Toronto in 2019 was just him making awful decision after awful decision that were legit basic middle school level reads. Yeah he was swarmed defensively, but his passing was embarrassing at best in that series. It was an infuriating watch.


Draymond's point is brain dead though.

[beeshma]

Draymond's comment makes me hope for a Denver - Milwaukee finals. That would be awesome.

[Pachinko_]

Draymond's comment makes me hope for a Denver - Milwaukee finals. That would be awesome.

I'm a simple guy, I hope for a Denver - Milwaukee Finals simply because that Serbia - Greece game in Belgrade with Jokic up against Giannis was probably the best game I've watched all year.
Couldn't give a **** what Draymond says.

[nikster]

Giannis didn't get much flak from the media before winning the title so it holds true, despite the Bucks perennially being elite in the regular season for years before their title.

No of course they didn't give him flak, they didn't even speak about him at all like he didn't even exist. Even after the title it was like maybe one day before they went back to talking about the Lakers.

And people were talking about his flaws and the wall defenses that made him vulnerable in the playoffs.

Players like Lebron and KD were household names from basically the moment they came in the league. Giannis won a title 4 years after first being name an all star and even then I'm not sure many were convinced he had superstar potential.