Kevin McHale over 176 games from '86 playoffs to '88 playoffs: 24.6/9.03/2.6/0.5/1.9 bpg on 65.5% TS

[dhsilv2]

This is the most absurd take that I have seen in some time. Prior to the 3 pt shot the low post game was king because most PF/C worth their salt shot above .500. The reason why we do not have low post players is because teams are busy shooting 25-35 3's/game. The players with the highest shooting percentage all-time are 90% big men at over .500. The reason it isn't taught is not because it isn't effective but there are only so many big men and the pro game does not value them.

Just because you go into the post doesn't mean the final shot is a post up. The goal of an offense and the reason you run an offense through player x or player y is to find the best possible shot. Even when teams didn't have a 3 point shot, it was still best to get a dunk/layup or free throw. Guys historically have not shot anywhere close to 50% from the post. A lot of guys who posted up a lot did shoot 50%, but that 50% wasn't from the actual post. Guys who could score at those rates from the post are extremely rare historically.

Take a guy like Tom Heinsohn, shot a variety of shots, mostly in the paint. Was the Celtics 1st option for a few years. He shot some undefendable running hook shots from just inside the free throw line. 24 second clock running out, no problem get to Heinson and he will get something up at the basket and maybe Russell will get the offensives rebound. Even today Heinsohn was undefendedable but those tough shots Heinsohn was shooting did not go in the basket much. Heinsohn was shooting 39% when he was the 1st option in 1961 and 39% was fine because the league was only shooting 38%.

60's and some of the 70's were so weird with pace. Teams were running so hard to get up a shot before effectively the half court set was even established. I'd love to see the transition scoring vs set defense scoring stats from that era. Sadly I doubt we have enough game film publicly available to see the breakdown.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I think the average NBA player could score 40 points a game if he is allowed to shoot TS% 20% and is allowed for his team to lose the game.

Sure, that makes sense. If you're just chucking and then you don't have to worry about passing and you're not concerned with it being a worthwhile possession, sure. That won't actually happen, so it's sort of moot.

I think McHale could shoot 40 points a game at higher than league average shooting percentages and with a permanent double team. I am talking about 40 points a game at a good percentage against a triangle and 2 with the 2 both being on McHale. But his teammates have to throw the entry pass as well as BIrd DJ and Ainge.

Unlikely. 40+ ppg has happened from one player in league history, and there have been lots of teams that have needed more scoring than they had. McHale didn't have a LOT of range, and in real NBA basketball even in the 80s, teams would do their best to deny the entry pass and otherwise frustrate him out of his spots to an extent that would really make his life difficult and erode his efficiency.

Like, no. He doesn't have the on-court mobility or range to manage it. He could have scored more than he did, for sure, and he showed that well enough in 87. But 40 ppg is an unreasonable threshold. He managed 26 in 40 mpg. And from 84-92, he was a 29.5 PTS100 type of guy, and was pretty consistent about it. Yeah, he was on Boston and yeah there were other scorers and such, so you can look at that a little, but 40 is a pretty specific threshold. If neither Jordan nor Kobe could manage that and if we still haven't seen it in this era of perimeter scoring, there's basically a 0% chance that you'd have seen that from McHale except if you ported him back into the 60s and played him the way they played Wilt early in his career.

Having lived in the Boston area for McHale’s career and living in the SF Bay are for Curry’s career it is not hard for me to imagine McHale added to the current Warriors. Warriors have a tiny team and we want Nerlens Noel bad. With McHale added you can pretty much just concede the championship to the Warriors.

McHale on that frontline would be horrific for the rest of the league, agreed.

McHale does not need more mobility to score 40 points a game. McHale does not need to run away from defenders. McHale had slow feet but every step was perfect on both defense and offense.

McHale could double the number shots he took in his own time. Lets say McHale was getting 6 points on free gift dunks from Bird a game and 6 more points on offensive rounds and 12 points on McHale do your thing possessions; only 2 and 1/2 times the do your thing 12 points and remove.3 of the Bird gift points because he won’t be playing with Bird. So I am giving him 30 do your thing points and 6 points on offensive rebounts and 3 gift points from Bird’s replacement for 39 points. I will give him one more do your thing point to get to 40 points.

McHale would be just doing what he always did but more of it. We treat him almost like Harden and just keep dumping the ball to him at maybe 3 times the rate that the Celtics did and let his shooting percentage drop a little bit. What McHale did could not be stopped. Celtics could have run McHale do your thing possessions much more than did. Defenders had plenty of time to set up for McHale but they just could not stop him. Doing more McHale possessions means not running your team offense as much. The defense did not really matter because changing from 2 defenders to 3 defenders barely bothered McHale. McHale might take 1 or 2 dribbles and the 3rd defender might get a hand on the dribble. The dribbles like McHale’s feet were well placed and defenders did not get to McHale’s dribble often and they got to his shot release even less often than they got to his dribble. Everything was perfect. He could have shot more and it would not change anything.

McHale did not pass out much do to being to well defended because he could not be defended. When he did pass out he would immediately repost and you could dump the ball back into McHale. I think What McHale did could have been scaled up to 40 points agame without reducing the quality of his looks because the defense could not do anything to make him shoot bad shots. Good shots were available to McHale no matter what the defense did.

January or February or was it March of 1987 is his peak; just a monster. That is what you want to look at to see the guy who could score 40 points a game if they give him the ball more. Then he broke his foot.

Here a 5 minute highlight film of one game; how are you supposed to guard McHale?

Watch on YouTube

Another 3 minute video of one game in 1987 37 points

Watch on YouTube

[tdot_steel]

First of all, no one said post play was inefficient (or no one who knows what they're talking about), no reason to repeat bad strawmen. The two MVP favorites the past 3 years both score tons of pts in the post very efficiently, to give the most obvious example. The discussion worth having is whether post-play as the absolute center and focus of your offense is worth revisiting now, like it was in the 80s, or if the more spread-court pn'r/DHO-based offenses are more effective mainstays or centerpieces of an offense. I'm up for talking all day about that but we have to actually talk about it.

Second and most obviously, this is a fairly small and fairly random sample (two RS and two PO seasons, spread over 4 seasons) from one of the era's absolute best post scorers (who was also playing on a superteam the whole time). If you take the rest of McHale's general prime in the RS it's still good but it's more like 21/8 on around 60-61% TS. Those are short of what someone like Porzingis is doing these days, and many players (including bigs) are posting better ones. And remember the 80s were quite high-scoring too, just a hair below the last couple years in terms of overall points.

This is definitely not to take away anything from McHale, just that McHale having some periods of great efficiency isn't an argument for the post play needing to come back at the expense of what's happening now. Or at least you'd need ot argue that more.

No, it's a fact that historically the post has been the least efficient NBA offense. There are two massive exceptions in the league right now, but that's what they are. Huge exceptions. McHale along with maybe 20 other guys were good post scorers. Everyone else, simple wasn't.

A 1950s, 1960s 1970s or 1980s fan would very confused because post play was more efficient in those eras.
David Robinson may have changed things because like Gianis Robinson was a great center who played like an oversized small forward.
Jordan apchanged things to because everybody wanted to be like Mike to the point that I guess the big men stop practicing post Moves.

Even when Jabar was the best player Dr J was the fans favorite player. Then LeBron and Kobe were the fans favorite player.
Shaq relied on being overwhelming which is not clasic post play.

Who do we have for classic post play in the last 20 years. Amare kind of. Rashid Wallace. Drummand playing sort of in a Moses Malone style. Cousins sometimes did baby Shaq but he was also shooting 3s. And Embiid.

But guys like Lanier and even James Edwards were good post players with post moves. Good post moves would still be efficient offense if anybody had good post moves.

As a former Sixers fan, I am shocked to hear you compare Drummond to Moses Malone. This generation does not realize the impact of Moses. I would compare Drummond to Kevin Willis or Maurice Lucas not anywhere near HOF conversation.

We are witnessing a true HOF talent in Jokic and people bring up Embiid. What Joker is doing at center in today's game is unreal. Averaging a triple double and almost leading the league in assists. A center that plays from the low post and midrange......but can also shoot from 3

[tsherkin]

McHale does not need more mobility to score 40 points a game.

I vehemently disagree with that proposition.

McHale could double the number shots he took in his own time.

Based on what ? What makes you think he could take 30+ FGA/g and that a) the defense would let him and b) he'd be able to maintain the same quality of looks while doing so, contrary to the correlation we see with every other player in league history?

McHale would be just doing what he always did but more of it. We treat him almost like Harden and just keep dumping the ball to him at maybe 3 times the rate that the Celtics did and let his shooting percentage drop a little bit.

And you don't see defenses game-planning to stop that in exactly the same ways they did to Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson and so forth?

McHale did not pass out much do to being to well defended because he could not be defended.

I'd contend that he didn't pass out because he was used as a finisher on possessions and the Celtics weren't really looking for him to pass out. He had something of a blackhole reputation, but it was appropriate for that to be the case because he was such a high-percentage and high-efficiency finisher. Like Dantley, he was exceedingly adept at sealing to get position where he needed only one move and one counter generally to score. That's a skillset of its own, to be sure, but again, defenses weren't game-planning against him as a primary scorer.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

No, it's a fact that historically the post has been the least efficient NBA offense. There are two massive exceptions in the league right now, but that's what they are. Huge exceptions. McHale along with maybe 20 other guys were good post scorers. Everyone else, simple wasn't.

A 1950s, 1960s 1970s or 1980s fan would very confused because post play was more efficient in those eras.
David Robinson may have changed things because like Gianis Robinson was a great center who played like an oversized small forward.
Jordan apchanged things to because everybody wanted to be like Mike to the point that I guess the big men stop practicing post Moves.

Even when Jabar was the best player Dr J was the fans favorite player. Then LeBron and Kobe were the fans favorite player.
Shaq relied on being overwhelming which is not clasic post play.

Who do we have for classic post play in the last 20 years. Amare kind of. Rashid Wallace. Drummand playing sort of in a Moses Malone style. Cousins sometimes did baby Shaq but he was also shooting 3s. And Embiid.

But guys like Lanier and even James Edwards were good post players with post moves. Good post moves would still be efficient offense if anybody had good post moves.

As a former Sixers fan, I am shocked to hear you compare Drummond to Moses Malone. This generation does not realize the impact of Moses. I would compare Drummond to Kevin Willis or Maurice Lucas not anywhere near HOF conversation.

We are witnessing a true HOF talent in Jokic and people bring up Embiid. What Joker is doing at center in today's game is unreal. Averaging a triple double and almost leading the league in assists. A center that plays from the low post and midrange......but can also shoot from 3

Only because Drummed uses some Moses moves like throwing up a shot that misses just to get the offensive rebound and backing the defender in deeper while offensive rebounding his miss. Post play is so weak today that Drumands’s best yyear qualifies as one of the best low post scoring seasons of the last 20 years.

I watched Moses in the playoffs vs my home town Celtics in 1980 and 1981. I only caught the 1983 76ers vs Lakers in the finals.
I grew to be a Caldwell Jones fan because I appreciated his play vs the Celtics in 1980, 1981 and 1982 playoffs. I wished the compensation for Moses was Dawkins instead of Caldwell Jones because Caldwell could have played next to Moses instead of Iavorni .
Caldwell deserved a ring.

[Jables]

I've always said, McHale was very skilled at what he did but on a team without Larry Bird he would've been the Al Horford type of his time (iffy but can't think of any sort of modern post scorers to compare him to tbh).

[hauntedcomputer]

60's and some of the 70's were so weird with pace. Teams were running so hard to get up a shot before effectively the half court set was even established. I'd love to see the transition scoring vs set defense scoring stats from that era. Sadly I doubt we have enough game film publicly available to see the breakdown.

I've read players from that era say they were trying to get up the court before Russell or Wilt got there. Considering that was 25 percent of the league, not counting guys like Walt Bellamy and Elgin Baylor.

I don't know about "guard-driven" in the sense of the guard doing most of the playmaking and scoring or actually "driving" the team up the court, or if we're just looking at offense, champs by era are:
Dawn of NBA Mikan
late 50/60s Russell/Wilt. You could argue that Cousy and then the Joneses "drove" the Celtics offense but it was often triggered by Russell's outlets.
70s: hodgepodge of Unseld/Hayes/Cowens/Kareem/Walton. The top guards didn't get many rings--Maravich, Gervin, Thompson, Monroe, Bing, Earl Monroe, Westphal, I am not sure there is a ring in the bunch.
80s-- Moses Malone. Obviously Magic drove the Lakers in every sense, but Kareem was mostly the focus of the set offense. I'm not sure Dennis Johnson drove the Celtics at all.
90s- Jordan ruled the decade. Otherwise, Hakeem.

After Shaq it seemed like things shifted more, whether because of the lack of skill down low or because perimeter ball hogs dominated proceedings. And the three-ball moved the action outward. But I'd argue that historically overall guards have not driven championships and the game is just waiting for a couple more big guys who are super skilled down low.

[FrodoBaggins]

McHale does not need more mobility to score 40 points a game.

I vehemently disagree with that proposition.

McHale could double the number shots he took in his own time.

Based on what ? What makes you think he could take 30+ FGA/g and that a) the defense would let him and b) he'd be able to maintain the same quality of looks while doing so, contrary to the correlation we see with every other player in league history?

McHale would be just doing what he always did but more of it. We treat him almost like Harden and just keep dumping the ball to him at maybe 3 times the rate that the Celtics did and let his shooting percentage drop a little bit.

And you don't see defenses game-planning to stop that in exactly the same ways they did to Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson and so forth?

McHale did not pass out much do to being to well defended because he could not be defended.

I'd contend that he didn't pass out because he was used as a finisher on possessions and the Celtics weren't really looking for him to pass out. He had something of a blackhole reputation, but it was appropriate for that to be the case because he was such a high-percentage and high-efficiency finisher. Like Dantley, he was exceedingly adept at sealing to get position where he needed only one move and one counter generally to score. That's a skillset of its own, to be sure, but again, defenses weren't game-planning against him as a primary scorer.

That's debatable. He was doubled as much as anyone on that team. They simply couldn't match up with Kevin.

In his prime, McHale was held in high esteem around the league. When he prepared for playing the Celtics, then-76ers coach Billy Cunningham said that McHale was the player who caused him to lose sleep at night.

"Believe it or not, we felt we had a game plan with Bird, as good as he was you could only stop him so much," Cunningham says. "But we didn't know how to match up with McHale. We were stuck between a rock and a hard place. He had the best post moves probably of any player I can remember."

Adds Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, ''Kevin McHale is the best inside player in the league. He is as close to unstoppable as you can get."

Doc Rivers: "We were fearful of Bird and McHale, but we were really scared of McHale because we knew Bird was going to be Bird, and Dominique may outscore him and we could match that, but McHale was the guy we just couldn't get a handle on, and he knew it.

Watch on YouTube

[dhsilv2]

60's and some of the 70's were so weird with pace. Teams were running so hard to get up a shot before effectively the half court set was even established. I'd love to see the transition scoring vs set defense scoring stats from that era. Sadly I doubt we have enough game film publicly available to see the breakdown.

I've read players from that era say they were trying to get up the court before Russell or Wilt got there. Considering that was 25 percent of the league, not counting guys like Walt Bellamy and Elgin Baylor.

I don't know about "guard-driven" in the sense of the guard doing most of the playmaking and scoring or actually "driving" the team up the court, or if we're just looking at offense, champs by era are:
Dawn of NBA Mikan
late 50/60s Russell/Wilt. You could argue that Cousy and then the Joneses "drove" the Celtics offense but it was often triggered by Russell's outlets.
70s: hodgepodge of Unseld/Hayes/Cowens/Kareem/Walton. The top guards didn't get many rings--Maravich, Gervin, Thompson, Monroe, Bing, Earl Monroe, Westphal, I am not sure there is a ring in the bunch.
80s-- Moses Malone. Obviously Magic drove the Lakers in every sense, but Kareem was mostly the focus of the set offense. I'm not sure Dennis Johnson drove the Celtics at all.
90s- Jordan ruled the decade. Otherwise, Hakeem.

After Shaq it seemed like things shifted more, whether because of the lack of skill down low or because perimeter ball hogs dominated proceedings. And the three-ball moved the action outward. But I'd argue that historically overall guards have not driven championships and the game is just waiting for a couple more big guys who are super skilled down low.

Celtics were a terrible offense once Russell came. They were in the 50's a top offense with a 2 guard offense. Oscar's cincinnati team was the best offense through the first half of the 60's. Then you had multiple years of West's Laker's with the top offense which carried into the 70's. We can keep going through it, but the actual top offensive teams were guard driven.

Not sure Moses was really ever the center piece of any team's offense. The man was as black hole who's greatest skill was that he didn't need the ball, he'd just go get it. Russell clearly was a decent passer, but he wasn't an offensive power house. Wilt rarely if ever had a top tier offense despite the big scoring. Kareem is an all time great offensive player, but he also got to play with Oscar and Magic who are two all time great offensive players. Unseld, Hayes, Cowens...I don't recall any having top tier offenses. These were defensive guys more than offensive.

When people talk about the post, teams have always worked on some level of inside out, but scoring threat guards passing into bigs for quick strikes in the post is VERY different than teams looking to get their big in the post to create the offense (be it a score for them or kicking out for others). IMO and the way the terms tend to be used, is that a "post based offense" is the latter.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

60's and some of the 70's were so weird with pace. Teams were running so hard to get up a shot before effectively the half court set was even established. I'd love to see the transition scoring vs set defense scoring stats from that era. Sadly I doubt we have enough game film publicly available to see the breakdown.

I've read players from that era say they were trying to get up the court before Russell or Wilt got there. Considering that was 25 percent of the league, not counting guys like Walt Bellamy and Elgin Baylor.

I don't know about "guard-driven" in the sense of the guard doing most of the playmaking and scoring or actually "driving" the team up the court, or if we're just looking at offense, champs by era are:
Dawn of NBA Mikan
late 50/60s Russell/Wilt. You could argue that Cousy and then the Joneses "drove" the Celtics offense but it was often triggered by Russell's outlets.
70s: hodgepodge of Unseld/Hayes/Cowens/Kareem/Walton. The top guards didn't get many rings--Maravich, Gervin, Thompson, Monroe, Bing, Earl Monroe, Westphal, I am not sure there is a ring in the bunch.
80s-- Moses Malone. Obviously Magic drove the Lakers in every sense, but Kareem was mostly the focus of the set offense. I'm not sure Dennis Johnson drove the Celtics at all.
90s- Jordan ruled the decade. Otherwise, Hakeem.

After Shaq it seemed like things shifted more, whether because of the lack of skill down low or because perimeter ball hogs dominated proceedings. And the three-ball moved the action outward. But I'd argue that historically overall guards have not driven championships and the game is just waiting for a couple more big guys who are super skilled down low.

Celtics were a terrible offense once Russell came. They were in the 50's a top offense with a 2 guard offense. Oscar's cincinnati team was the best offense through the first half of the 60's. Then you had multiple years of West's Laker's with the top offense which carried into the 70's. We can keep going through it, but the actual top offensive teams were guard driven.

Not sure Moses was really ever the center piece of any team's offense. The man was as black hole who's greatest skill was that he didn't need the ball, he'd just go get it. Russell clearly was a decent passer, but he wasn't an offensive power house. Wilt rarely if ever had a top tier offense despite the big scoring. Kareem is an all time great offensive player, but he also got to play with Oscar and Magic who are two all time great offensive players. Unseld, Hayes, Cowens...I don't recall any having top tier offenses. These were defensive guys more than offensive.

When people talk about the post, teams have always worked on some level of inside out, but scoring threat guards passing into bigs for quick strikes in the post is VERY different than teams looking to get their big in the post to create the offense (be it a score for them or kicking out for others). IMO and the way the terms tend to be used, is that a "post based offense" is the latter.

No sure if Moses was the centerpiece of any teams offense? Mose was as centerpiece as anybody. Not a passer but clearly the primary scorer on the Rockets for about 5 years and the 1983 76ers.

I am not remembering how getting old went for Moses. Dr J the 2nd option was aging and Toney a potential 1st option got injured and Barkley arrived.

On the Rockets on a good night when he was hot Calvin Murphy was capable of being a good co-1st option with Moses but since Moses was an offensive force every single game where as Calvin Murphy was an offensive force every 3rd game Moses was clearly the centerpieece.

Moses was better than his FG percentage because Moses shot shots where you wonderred if he was intentionally missing just to get the offensive rebound and get in deeper for his real shot. Moses rebounded his own misses so often that I feel like calling it Moses passing to himself and I would subtract the miss and subtract the offensive rebound because there was never a shot but rather it was just Moses passing to himself off the rim.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Mobility
Mchale got some fast break scores where mobility helped; but normally mobility as in quickness was not part of McHale’s scoring. McHale made perfect moves not fast moves. McHale does not need more mobility to up his scoring. McHale just needed more touches.

McHale does not need more mobility to score 40 points a game.

I vehemently disagree with that proposition.

McHale could double the number shots he took in his own time.

Based on what ? What makes you think he could take 30+ FGA/g and that a) the defense would let him and b) he'd be able to maintain the same quality of looks while doing so, contrary to the correlation we see with every other player in league history?

McHale would be just doing what he always did but more of it. We treat him almost like Harden and just keep dumping the ball to him at maybe 3 times the rate that the Celtics did and let his shooting percentage drop a little bit.

And you don't see defenses game-planning to stop that in exactly the same ways they did to Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson and so forth?

McHale did not pass out much do to being to well defended because he could not be defended.

I'd contend that he didn't pass out because he was used as a finisher on possessions and the Celtics weren't really looking for him to pass out. He had something of a blackhole reputation, but it was appropriate for that to be the case because he was such a high-percentage and high-efficiency finisher. Like Dantley, he was exceedingly adept at sealing to get position where he needed only one move and one counter generally to score. That's a skillset of its own, to be sure, but again, defenses weren't game-planning against him as a primary scorer.

Maybe I should settle for 35 points a game. 1987 McHale could definitely take 8 more shot attempts at 50% instead of the 60% that he shot and that would be 8 more points per game bringing him to 26 plus 8 = 34 points a game. Could he take Wilt level shots? Stamina might become an issue. Wilt was in an era with more shots per game.

I think McHale could be ramped up higher than Hakeem because I think a help defender can get to more of Hakeem’s shots than a help defender can get to McHale’s shots. McHale’s arm length made McHale effectively tatter than Hakeem and probably effectively tall than Wilt, more like releasing shots at Kareem’s length. Then he falls away so much. Straight fall aways and left and right leaning fall aways.

More than any other player that I have seen i don’t think more defense and extra defenders could stop McHale.

We kind of got robbed of seeing what McHale could do as the centerpiece of an offense because of McHale’s teammates. Replace Rasheed Wallace on the Championship Ben Wallace Pistons and make Billups and Hamilton defer to McHale and what could McHale do. Oh well, I will never know what McHale’s limits were because the Celtics never tested his limits. My guess at McHale’s limits is clearly higher than your guess of McHale’s limits as a very clear first option on a team.

[70sFan]

McHale is the candidate for GOAT touch around the paint (kind of Jokic now) and the most underrated part of his game is his off-ball movement. He's fundamentally the best player I have ever watched at sealling his man in the post and he always positioned himself in a way to make scoring move on a catch. Absolutely remarkable player that would thrive in any era.

[hauntedcomputer]

When people talk about the post, teams have always worked on some level of inside out, but scoring threat guards passing into bigs for quick strikes in the post is VERY different than teams looking to get their big in the post to create the offense (be it a score for them or kicking out for others). IMO and the way the terms tend to be used, is that a "post based offense" is the latter.

You are probably right. My point was that for most of NBA history, it didn't matter if you had a top offense, or a guard-driven offense. That seems to have changed in the last couple of decades. Today I'd still rather have McHale than say, Booker or Donovan Mitchell, but that's just me.

[dhsilv2]

I've read players from that era say they were trying to get up the court before Russell or Wilt got there. Considering that was 25 percent of the league, not counting guys like Walt Bellamy and Elgin Baylor.

I don't know about "guard-driven" in the sense of the guard doing most of the playmaking and scoring or actually "driving" the team up the court, or if we're just looking at offense, champs by era are:
Dawn of NBA Mikan
late 50/60s Russell/Wilt. You could argue that Cousy and then the Joneses "drove" the Celtics offense but it was often triggered by Russell's outlets.
70s: hodgepodge of Unseld/Hayes/Cowens/Kareem/Walton. The top guards didn't get many rings--Maravich, Gervin, Thompson, Monroe, Bing, Earl Monroe, Westphal, I am not sure there is a ring in the bunch.
80s-- Moses Malone. Obviously Magic drove the Lakers in every sense, but Kareem was mostly the focus of the set offense. I'm not sure Dennis Johnson drove the Celtics at all.
90s- Jordan ruled the decade. Otherwise, Hakeem.

After Shaq it seemed like things shifted more, whether because of the lack of skill down low or because perimeter ball hogs dominated proceedings. And the three-ball moved the action outward. But I'd argue that historically overall guards have not driven championships and the game is just waiting for a couple more big guys who are super skilled down low.

Celtics were a terrible offense once Russell came. They were in the 50's a top offense with a 2 guard offense. Oscar's cincinnati team was the best offense through the first half of the 60's. Then you had multiple years of West's Laker's with the top offense which carried into the 70's. We can keep going through it, but the actual top offensive teams were guard driven.

Not sure Moses was really ever the center piece of any team's offense. The man was as black hole who's greatest skill was that he didn't need the ball, he'd just go get it. Russell clearly was a decent passer, but he wasn't an offensive power house. Wilt rarely if ever had a top tier offense despite the big scoring. Kareem is an all time great offensive player, but he also got to play with Oscar and Magic who are two all time great offensive players. Unseld, Hayes, Cowens...I don't recall any having top tier offenses. These were defensive guys more than offensive.

When people talk about the post, teams have always worked on some level of inside out, but scoring threat guards passing into bigs for quick strikes in the post is VERY different than teams looking to get their big in the post to create the offense (be it a score for them or kicking out for others). IMO and the way the terms tend to be used, is that a "post based offense" is the latter.

No sure if Moses was the centerpiece of any teams offense? Mose was as centerpiece as anybody. Not a passer but clearly the primary scorer on the Rockets for about 5 years and the 1983 76ers.

I am not remembering how getting old went for Moses. Dr J the 2nd option was aging and Toney a potential 1st option got injured and Barkley arrived.

On the Rockets on a good night when he was hot Calvin Murphy was capable of being a good co-1st option with Moses but since Moses was an offensive force every single game where as Calvin Murphy was an offensive force every 3rd game Moses was clearly the centerpieece.

Moses was better than his FG percentage because Moses shot shots where you wonderred if he was intentionally missing just to get the offensive rebound and get in deeper for his real shot. Moses rebounded his own misses so often that I feel like calling it Moses passing to himself and I would subtract the miss and subtract the offensive rebound because there was never a shot but rather it was just Moses passing to himself off the rim.

Being the best scorer or leading score doesn't mean an offense runs through you. Stockton was the key to the Jazz offense imo, I know that's debated. It's about who creates the offense, not who the end scorer is. Today it's obviously more obvious with most teams due to heliocentric offense. Sometimes the key guy's role is to get the best player a good look that they otherwise couldn't create themself.

[Sgt Major]

Against the plumbers tho


/s

[dhsilv2]

When people talk about the post, teams have always worked on some level of inside out, but scoring threat guards passing into bigs for quick strikes in the post is VERY different than teams looking to get their big in the post to create the offense (be it a score for them or kicking out for others). IMO and the way the terms tend to be used, is that a "post based offense" is the latter.

You are probably right. My point was that for most of NBA history, it didn't matter if you had a top offense, or a guard-driven offense. That seems to have changed in the last couple of decades. Today I'd still rather have McHale than say, Booker or Donovan Mitchell, but that's just me.

I'd not really want a McHale as much today. His passing was just too poor for the modern era. He's get his without a doubt and I think he's quick enough to defend just fine, but passing's value has increased so much today. Mind you..still not a Mitchell fan so I might agree there, but I'd be roasted for inconsistency lol.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Celtics were a terrible offense once Russell came. They were in the 50's a top offense with a 2 guard offense. Oscar's cincinnati team was the best offense through the first half of the 60's. Then you had multiple years of West's Laker's with the top offense which carried into the 70's. We can keep going through it, but the actual top offensive teams were guard driven.

Not sure Moses was really ever the center piece of any team's offense. The man was as black hole who's greatest skill was that he didn't need the ball, he'd just go get it. Russell clearly was a decent passer, but he wasn't an offensive power house. Wilt rarely if ever had a top tier offense despite the big scoring. Kareem is an all time great offensive player, but he also got to play with Oscar and Magic who are two all time great offensive players. Unseld, Hayes, Cowens...I don't recall any having top tier offenses. These were defensive guys more than offensive.

When people talk about the post, teams have always worked on some level of inside out, but scoring threat guards passing into bigs for quick strikes in the post is VERY different than teams looking to get their big in the post to create the offense (be it a score for them or kicking out for others). IMO and the way the terms tend to be used, is that a "post based offense" is the latter.

No sure if Moses was the centerpiece of any teams offense? Mose was as centerpiece as anybody. Not a passer but clearly the primary scorer on the Rockets for about 5 years and the 1983 76ers.

I am not remembering how getting old went for Moses. Dr J the 2nd option was aging and Toney a potential 1st option got injured and Barkley arrived.

On the Rockets on a good night when he was hot Calvin Murphy was capable of being a good co-1st option with Moses but since Moses was an offensive force every single game where as Calvin Murphy was an offensive force every 3rd game Moses was clearly the centerpieece.

Moses was better than his FG percentage because Moses shot shots where you wonderred if he was intentionally missing just to get the offensive rebound and get in deeper for his real shot. Moses rebounded his own misses so often that I feel like calling it Moses passing to himself and I would subtract the miss and subtract the offensive rebound because there was never a shot but rather it was just Moses passing to himself off the rim.

Being the best scorer or leading score doesn't mean an offense runs through you. Stockton was the key to the Jazz offense imo, I know that's debated. It's about who creates the offense, not who the end scorer is. Today it's obviously more obvious with most teams due to heliocentric offense. Sometimes the key guy's role is to get the best player a good look that they otherwise couldn't create themself.

So we are disqualifying everybody but LeBron now. You must be the leading scorer and the leading assist man?

Jordan is out because Pippen got more assists.
Magic is out for not being the leading scorer.

I guess Jokic Doncic and Harden are OK.
But that used to be rare.
1973 Nate Archibald lead the NBA in scoring and Assists so I guess he is the best player ever even though his team was not good.

Moses had gravity, Shaq had gravity and Curry had gravity but Curry is out because Draymond has more assists.

There is something to be said for a good first option scorer even if he is not a passer. Give me Rondo with McHale, Dikembe, Pippen and Ray Allen. McHale would be first option and Ray allen 2nd option while Rondo runs the offense.

Celtics offense did not get worse when Russel joined. 1st 3 years Of Russel the Celtics stayed in the top 3 in FG% and points. Sharman got old and the rest of the NBA improved their offense. Celtics also did a strange thing where they had had Ramsy and Sanders flinging up early offense garbage shots because they thought that their defense cracked other teams mentally. They wanted more possessions to make sure that their defensive advantage had enough possessions to beat the other team.

In the mid to late 1960s the Celtics stayed in the top half of FG%. But they were often near the bottom in FG% in the early 19600s.

[therealbig3]

McHale is awesome honestly, why do so many people take Karl Malone over him in an all time sense? McHale’s offense held up against tough playoff defense more than Malone’s did, no? And defensively, McHale was a legitimate rim protector in a way Malone wasn’t. Is it a longevity thing? I can understand that argument for sure, but peak vs peak, idk, the rim protecting ultra efficient big who can fit next to pretty much anyone in terms of his skillset is tough to beat. Comparing MVPs isn’t really fair, because McHale played next to Bird. You could say that’s what makes a comparison to Malone unfair as well, but we’ve seen McHale as a first option when Bird was hurt and he still did great, and Malone still had one of the greatest set up men in history who fit him like a glove play next to him pretty much his entire career, so it’s not a big difference to me.

[dhsilv2]

No sure if Moses was the centerpiece of any teams offense? Mose was as centerpiece as anybody. Not a passer but clearly the primary scorer on the Rockets for about 5 years and the 1983 76ers.

I am not remembering how getting old went for Moses. Dr J the 2nd option was aging and Toney a potential 1st option got injured and Barkley arrived.

On the Rockets on a good night when he was hot Calvin Murphy was capable of being a good co-1st option with Moses but since Moses was an offensive force every single game where as Calvin Murphy was an offensive force every 3rd game Moses was clearly the centerpieece.

Moses was better than his FG percentage because Moses shot shots where you wonderred if he was intentionally missing just to get the offensive rebound and get in deeper for his real shot. Moses rebounded his own misses so often that I feel like calling it Moses passing to himself and I would subtract the miss and subtract the offensive rebound because there was never a shot but rather it was just Moses passing to himself off the rim.

Being the best scorer or leading score doesn't mean an offense runs through you. Stockton was the key to the Jazz offense imo, I know that's debated. It's about who creates the offense, not who the end scorer is. Today it's obviously more obvious with most teams due to heliocentric offense. Sometimes the key guy's role is to get the best player a good look that they otherwise couldn't create themself.

So we are disqualifying everybody but LeBron now. You must be the leading scorer and the leading assist man?

Jordan is out because Pippen got more assists.
Magic is out for not being the leading scorer.

I guess Jokic Doncic and Harden are OK.
But that used to be rare.
1973 Nate Archibald lead the NBA in scoring and Assists so I guess he is the best player ever even though his team was not good.

Moses had gravity, Shaq had gravity and Curry had gravity but Curry is out because Draymond has more assists.

There is something to be said for a good first option scorer even if he is not a passer. Give me Rondo with McHale, Dikembe, Pippen and Ray Allen. McHale would be first option and Ray allen 2nd option while Rondo runs the offense.

Well that's a weird super team lol. I'd run that team's offense through Pippen though. The triangle with Jordan and Pippen was build around having 2 points of attack in Jordan AND Pippen. But then the bulls would just scrap it when needed to iso MJ. MJ in the post was absolutely their bred and butter during the second run for example where MJ created his looks or for others.

Remember you can create offense by scoring or passing. It's about who the primary creator is, not exactly how they do it.

[FrodoBaggins]

McHale is the candidate for GOAT touch around the paint (kind of Jokic now) and the most underrated part of his game is his off-ball movement. He's fundamentally the best player I have ever watched at sealling his man in the post and he always positioned himself in a way to make scoring move on a catch. Absolutely remarkable player that would thrive in any era.

Bro, you got to make a prime McHale video like these ones on Moses:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I would try, but I don't know where to get footage of old games.