Jeff Hornacek vs Jrue Holiday

[SpreeS]

Could Jrue catch Hornacek with deep playoff run this year? Jeff is TOP100 player by realgm forum (2020). What kind of chances has Jrue get into this year TOP100?

[penbeast0]

Interesting comp; both were small SGs with some PG skills that were well liked by coaches and teammates. Hornacek only had 1 20 point season and 1 all star appearance (both in 92) but was more efficient and in a less efficient era; Holiday has 2 all star appearances, 4 All-Defense, and 4 20 point seasons.

Hornacek also made a huge difference for the Utah teams finally giving Stockton and Malone a decent 3rd option and it showed as the offenses with him in Utah tended to rate very high; Holiday has a title in Milwaukee. I'd probably rate Holiday higher though there are also other players who have moved up and into the top 100 list (like Giannis) who may leave them both on the outside.

[trex_8063]

Interesting comp; both were small SGs with some PG skills that were well liked by coaches and teammates. Hornacek only had 1 20 point season and 1 all star appearance (both in 92) but was more efficient and in a less efficient era; Holiday has 2 all star appearances, 4 All-Defense, and 4 20 point seasons.

Hornacek also made a huge difference for the Utah teams finally giving Stockton and Malone a decent 3rd option and it showed as the offenses with him in Utah tended to rate very high; Holiday has a title in Milwaukee. I'd probably rate Holiday higher though there are also other players who have moved up and into the top 100 list (like Giannis) who may leave them both on the outside.

I think you may have been looking at Jrue's per 36 stats, because he too only has ONE 20+ ppg season. Not that comparing ppg is necessarily appropriate between eras.

Looking at per 100: Hornacek is a career 23.1 pts/100, Jrue 24.5 pts/100. But the gap in shooting efficiency relative to era is in Hornacek's favour by nearly 6% (Hornacek career +4.9% rTS, Jrue -1.0%); that's like the gap that prime Jordan was better than the league average.

I would also judge Hornacek to have the better all-around turnover economy....
Jeff per 100: 23.1 pts, 5.4 reb, 7.8 ast, 2.9 tov (career rs 7.07% mTOV%)
Jrue per 100: 24.5 pts, 6.1 reb, 9.6 ast, 4.1 tov (career rs 8.26% mTOV%)

So I see Holiday as the slightly more "productive" player, though while being substantially less efficient. Outside the individual numbers, I'd say Jeff is a little less capable creator off the dribble, though a slightly better off-ball mover and better floor spacing threat (at least relative to era; probably in an absolute sense, too).
I'd take Hornacek on offense overall without too much second thought.

So it maybe comes down to how highly you value Jrue's defense (bearing in mind that Hornacek was a capable defensive guard in his own right).

And although they've both played 14 seasons, I note that Hornacek was more available throughout his career: basically an iron-man......
Jeff missed 15 games in '90, and otherwise never missed more than 5 games in any given season (his missed 2 games or less in 10 of 14 seasons).

Jrue, otoh, has missed 15 games or more in 6 of 14 seasons so far (might hit 15+ this year, is going to at least come close); he missed over half the year twice. And that 5 games or less that Hornacek managed in 13 of 14 seasons? Jrue's managed to be that available in just 3 of 14.


Based on all the above, I'd still rate Hornacek higher for career.
Peak is a more interesting debate.

[SpreeS]

Jrue and Jeff both came to good teams at 30y old and gave to those teams next dimensions. Also both had only 4 PO seasons before trades. We can find their advantages and disadvantages on BBRF.COM. Jeff was way better efficient scorer with way better durability. Jrue is better defender by good margin and better playmaker.

I really value long terms plus/minus data. We have only last 4 years data for Jeff career and it outstanding good, but Jrue surprised me a lot in this department. Holiday has only two seasons with negative +/- on court (1st and 4th) on averages/bad teams. It tells me that he is very impactful player.

NOLA 14-20

Davis/Jrue 8477min +4.95 nrtg
Jrue w/o Davis 5436min -1.27 nrtg
Davis w/o Jrue 5785min -3.69 nrtg

MIL 21-23

Giannis/Jrue 3380min +11.01 nrtg
Jrue w/o Giannis 2288 +5.29 nrtg
Giannis w/o Jrue +3.85 nrtg

Jrue w/o Giannis and Middleton 1222min +6.18 nrtg

PHI 10-13

Jrue/Iggy 5065min +1.31 nrtg
Jrue w/o Iggy 1799min +2.04 nrtg
Iggy w/o Jrue 2806min -0.11 nrtg

Jrue impact was from the beginning of his career. Sad that Nola was one big hospital (Davis/Cousins/Zion/Anderson/Gordon) or have ran into GSW dynasty when healthy. A few more seasons and Jrue will be clearly ahead Jeff. Hornacek was a third wheel on Jazz and Holiday? I think no one won’t mind that he is second best player on MIL.

[ronnymac2]

There's a massive gap defensively. Jeff Hornacek provided no resistance whatsoever to offensive wings players during that era. His REG SEA rep, box score profile, team DRTG...then we get to the playoffs where he was partially responsible for point guards and wings eviscerating his teams over the course of a decade.

Jrue Holiday is one of the finest defensive guards of his era. He constantly grades out highly in defensive impact metrics, he's played strong defense on very strong defensive teams (REG SEA and Playoffs), and he's regarded as a top defensive player in terms of awards/recognition, which seem to actually be well-deserved based on individual and team statistical defensive results. So regardless of what your preference for analysis of defense is, Jrue is certified as one of the best defensive guards of the millenium.

The primacy he had as a lead guard in New Orleans outstrips anything Hornacek ever had to do. Hornacek has the three years in PHX where he's a secondary playmaker and posts USG% lower than prime Jrue (and to be fair, Horny was much more efficient). But once he lands in Philly - which admittedly was a dumpster-fire and neither Hornacek's nor Hersey Hawkins' fault - his primacy goes much higher, and his efficiency falls down considerably. That stellar TOV% he had in PHX and that he would later exhibit in Utah is no longer impressive. Even his scoring efficiency dives.

He goes to Utah and is put in a perfect position as the clear third-best offensive player on strong offensive teams. This is a valuable player for sure. But Jrue proved himself much more as a passer/playmaker. They are both lead guards, but Jrue has more of that point guard in him than Jeff did. Jeff is the better shooter for sure, but Jrue has like a 650-game sample size shooting 3's at 1.6 makes per game at 36% (even better if looking only at the last three years).

I'm taking Jrue in his prime pretty easily. That archetype of all-league defender (who can guard either guard position) who manages the game well, provides spacing, and can provide scoring as a 2B option (or ideally third option) but at the cost of high turnovers is more valuable to me than an unselfish, take-nothing-off-the-table shooter and limited creator who gives me nothing but average-at-best defense.

[dygaction]

Could Jrue catch Hornacek with deep playoff run this year? Jeff is TOP100 player by realgm forum (2020). What kind of chances has Jrue get into this year TOP100?

In all fairness, Jeff has no business of being in top 100... a pretty good role player

[tsherkin]

Could Jrue catch Hornacek with deep playoff run this year? Jeff is TOP100 player by realgm forum (2020). What kind of chances has Jrue get into this year TOP100?

In all fairness, Jeff has no business of being in top 100... a pretty good role player

I'm with this.

Not an elite scorer. Not an elite defender. Not an elite playoff performer. He has maybe three seasons where his offense stands out to a meaningful degree. A good player, of course, and someone who would likely see a boost in today's game. Top 100 seems a bit aggressive at first blush, though. He was very healthy. A very good low-volume 3pt shooter. I'm not seeing the fuss.

Holiday is similar in scoring volume. You can say what you will about era differences, I suppose, but he's also a better defender and a better playmaker, and in so far as we can compare scoring, he's close enough that it isn't a huge advantage for Hornacek. I'm not really seeing a reason to specifically take JF over Holiday.

[70sFan]

Could Jrue catch Hornacek with deep playoff run this year? Jeff is TOP100 player by realgm forum (2020). What kind of chances has Jrue get into this year TOP100?

In all fairness, Jeff has no business of being in top 100... a pretty good role player

Hornacek was the leading scorer on 53 wins team. You have a very loose criteria for a roleplayer if you want to call him that way.

[dygaction]

Could Jrue catch Hornacek with deep playoff run this year? Jeff is TOP100 player by realgm forum (2020). What kind of chances has Jrue get into this year TOP100?

In all fairness, Jeff has no business of being in top 100... a pretty good role player

Hornacek was the leading scorer on 53 wins team. You have a very loose criteria for a roleplayer if you want to call him that way.

The year before when he was not the leading scorer, the Suns won 55, the year after when he was gone, the Suns won 62... The year when he was the leading score @ 20.1ppg, they had KJ @19.7, Majerle @17.3, and Chambers @16.3. He was never known to be a franchise player.

Marion was leading 54 win Suns in scoring, has 3x more all* (Jeff had 1x) and 2x more all-nba (Jeff had none), and he is a way better role player.

[70sFan]

In all fairness, Jeff has no business of being in top 100... a pretty good role player

Hornacek was the leading scorer on 53 wins team. You have a very loose criteria for a roleplayer if you want to call him that way.

The year before when he was not the leading scorer, the Suns won 55, the year after when he was gone, the Suns won 62... The year when he was the leading score @ 20.1ppg, they had KJ @19.7, Majerle @17.3, and Chambers @16.3. He was never known to be a franchise player.

Marion was leading 54 win Suns in scoring, has 3x more all* (Jeff had 1x) and 2x more all-nba (Jeff had none), and he is a way better role player.

There are more types of players in the league than "franchise players" and roleplayers. Marion wasn't a roleplayer either.

[dygaction]

Hornacek was the leading scorer on 53 wins team. You have a very loose criteria for a roleplayer if you want to call him that way.

The year before when he was not the leading scorer, the Suns won 55, the year after when he was gone, the Suns won 62... The year when he was the leading score @ 20.1ppg, they had KJ @19.7, Majerle @17.3, and Chambers @16.3. He was never known to be a franchise player.

Marion was leading 54 win Suns in scoring, has 3x more all* (Jeff had 1x) and 2x more all-nba (Jeff had none), and he is a way better role player.

There are more types of players in the league than "franchise players" and roleplayers. Marion wasn't a roleplayer either.

There could be, but Hornacek fits "good role player" than any other category that you can name. Marion and Jrue are much closer to the upper level than Hornacek.

By your standard, how do you define 2017 Isaiah Thomas, who also led a 53 win Boston team in scoring, but much higher (28.9ppg vs. 2nd 16.3ppg) than Jeff's 20.1ppg?

[70sFan]

The year before when he was not the leading scorer, the Suns won 55, the year after when he was gone, the Suns won 62... The year when he was the leading score @ 20.1ppg, they had KJ @19.7, Majerle @17.3, and Chambers @16.3. He was never known to be a franchise player.

Marion was leading 54 win Suns in scoring, has 3x more all* (Jeff had 1x) and 2x more all-nba (Jeff had none), and he is a way better role player.

There are more types of players in the league than "franchise players" and roleplayers. Marion wasn't a roleplayer either.

There could be, but Hornacek fits "good role player" than any other category that you can name. Marion and Jrue are much closer to the upper level than Hornacek.

Hornacek didn't have one "role" on any of his teams though. He was one of the best shooters in the league, but he wasn't a shooting specialist. He was excellent secondary ball-handler, but he also played off-ball. He was a very good passer, but he wasn't a pass-first PG. He was very crafty finisher, but teams didn't use him strictly in that role.

I can understand calling someone like Dan Majerle a roleplayer, because everything he did on offense was shooting threes. Hornacek wasn't such player though, he was a legit creator and off-ball threat on elite teams. I wonder if your view on him isn't clouded by old Jazz years.

As a Mavs fan, would you call someone like Brunson a roleplayer? Hornacek was better than that.

Edit: I see your edit, I definitely wouldn't call 2017 Thomas a roleplayer.

[tsherkin]

Hornacek was the leading scorer on 53 wins team. You have a very loose criteria for a roleplayer if you want to call him that way.

I think "leading scorer" means only so much, but as you say, there are more player types than "franchise player" and roleplayer.

But "leading scorer" is also a TEEENY bit disingenuous, since he was +0.4 ppg over KJ on that team and was clearly not the guy driving their offense.. very much like what dys is saying about Marion and those Suns, you know?

Hornacek was good, but you don't build an offense around him and he's generally more of a third-option kind of guy than anything else, and those Suns were reasonably well-distributed. And KJ could have scored more but he was busy propping them up with his playmaking and nearly matching Hornacek's scoring output at the same time, you know?

I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish here, lol. Hornacek was good and he definitely wasn't "just" a roleplayer but it's okay to look at him with a little bit of critical examination, no?

[dygaction]

There are more types of players in the league than "franchise players" and roleplayers. Marion wasn't a roleplayer either.

There could be, but Hornacek fits "good role player" than any other category that you can name. Marion and Jrue are much closer to the upper level than Hornacek.

Hornacek didn't have one "role" on any of his teams though. He was one of the best shooters in the league, but he wasn't a shooting specialist. He was excellent secondary ball-handler, but he also played off-ball. He was a very good passer, but he wasn't a pass-first PG. He was very crafty finisher, but teams didn't use him strictly in that role.

I can understand calling someone like Dan Majerle a roleplayer, because everything he did on offense was shooting threes. Hornacek wasn't such player though, he was a legit creator and off-ball threat on elite teams. I wonder if your view on him isn't clouded by old Jazz years.

As a Mavs fan, would you call someone like Brunson a roleplayer? Hornacek was better than that.

Edit: I see your edit, I definitely wouldn't call 2017 Thomas a roleplayer.

I don't think we need to made a clear cut of the term role player but I would say last year Brunson was certainly a good roleplayer in my book.

My question was really targeted towards Hornacek's top 100 selection. All you pictured his role his ceiling would be current players like CJ McCollum, Dejounte Murray... who are not really franchise player at their best.

[Jaivl]

There could be, but Hornacek fits "good role player" than any other category that you can name. Marion and Jrue are much closer to the upper level than Hornacek.

Hornacek didn't have one "role" on any of his teams though. He was one of the best shooters in the league, but he wasn't a shooting specialist. He was excellent secondary ball-handler, but he also played off-ball. He was a very good passer, but he wasn't a pass-first PG. He was very crafty finisher, but teams didn't use him strictly in that role.

I can understand calling someone like Dan Majerle a roleplayer, because everything he did on offense was shooting threes. Hornacek wasn't such player though, he was a legit creator and off-ball threat on elite teams. I wonder if your view on him isn't clouded by old Jazz years.

As a Mavs fan, would you call someone like Brunson a roleplayer? Hornacek was better than that.

Edit: I see your edit, I definitely wouldn't call 2017 Thomas a roleplayer.

I don't think we need to made a clear cut of the term role player but I would say last year Brunson was certainly a good roleplayer in my book.

My question was really targeted towards Hornacek's top 100 selection. All you pictured his role his ceiling would be current players like CJ McCollum, Dejounte Murray... who are not really franchise player at their best.

Oh Hornacek is clearly better than those guys relative to era. Top 40ish guys at best.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I'm high on both guys who each made underrated contribution to all-time great teams. Overall I'm taking Holiday though.

[dygaction]

Hornacek didn't have one "role" on any of his teams though. He was one of the best shooters in the league, but he wasn't a shooting specialist. He was excellent secondary ball-handler, but he also played off-ball. He was a very good passer, but he wasn't a pass-first PG. He was very crafty finisher, but teams didn't use him strictly in that role.

I can understand calling someone like Dan Majerle a roleplayer, because everything he did on offense was shooting threes. Hornacek wasn't such player though, he was a legit creator and off-ball threat on elite teams. I wonder if your view on him isn't clouded by old Jazz years.

As a Mavs fan, would you call someone like Brunson a roleplayer? Hornacek was better than that.

Edit: I see your edit, I definitely wouldn't call 2017 Thomas a roleplayer.

I don't think we need to made a clear cut of the term role player but I would say last year Brunson was certainly a good roleplayer in my book.

My question was really targeted towards Hornacek's top 100 selection. All you pictured his role his ceiling would be current players like CJ McCollum, Dejounte Murray... who are not really franchise player at their best.

Oh Hornacek is clearly better than those guys relative to era. Top 40ish guys at best.

how? Dejounte Murray last year was a 21.1p/8.3r/9.2a/2.0s player, larger size and better defense than Jeff. Jeff had 2 seasons over 18ppg, peaked once at 20.1ppg, and CJ already has 10 seasons over 20ppg... CJ/Murray would be a more valuable/luxury 3rd or 4th option than Hornacek

[trex_8063]

There's a massive gap defensively. Jeff Hornacek provided no resistance whatsoever to offensive wings players during that era. His REG SEA rep, box score profile, team DRTG...then we get to the playoffs where he was partially responsible for point guards and wings eviscerating his teams over the course of a decade.

Jrue Holiday is one of the finest defensive guards of his era. He constantly grades out highly in defensive impact metrics, he's played strong defense on very strong defensive teams (REG SEA and Playoffs), and he's regarded as a top defensive player in terms of awards/recognition, which seem to actually be well-deserved based on individual and team statistical defensive results. So regardless of what your preference for analysis of defense is, Jrue is certified as one of the best defensive guards of the millenium.

The primacy he had as a lead guard in New Orleans outstrips anything Hornacek ever had to do. Hornacek has the three years in PHX where he's a secondary playmaker and posts USG% lower than prime Jrue (and to be fair, Horny was much more efficient). But once he lands in Philly - which admittedly was a dumpster-fire and neither Hornacek's nor Hersey Hawkins' fault - his primacy goes much higher, and his efficiency falls down considerably. That stellar TOV% he had in PHX and that he would later exhibit in Utah is no longer impressive. Even his scoring efficiency dives.

He goes to Utah and is put in a perfect position as the clear third-best offensive player on strong offensive teams. This is a valuable player for sure. But Jrue proved himself much more as a passer/playmaker. They are both lead guards, but Jrue has more of that point guard in him than Jeff did. Jeff is the better shooter for sure, but Jrue has like a 650-game sample size shooting 3's at 1.6 makes per game at 36% (even better if looking only at the last three years).

I'm taking Jrue in his prime pretty easily. That archetype of all-league defender (who can guard either guard position) who manages the game well, provides spacing, and can provide scoring as a 2B option (or ideally third option) but at the cost of high turnovers is more valuable to me than an unselfish, take-nothing-off-the-table shooter and limited creator who gives me nothing but average-at-best defense.

Fair(ish) points, and it's not controversial to take Jrue in this comparison (I'd actually probably take Jrue for one peak season, or "best 3 years" or similar; for career I still probably go with Hornacek, though I expect Jrue's probably gonna catch him there, too).

However, I wanted to respond [or at least provide some additional info] toward a couple of points made above.....

Re: Hornacek defense
I disagree that he was some kind of sieve defensively. Hornacek wasn't the quickest, but he positioned well, had decent footwork, gave good effort, was physical [at least I remember him being so in his Utah years], and had quick hands.
As a few tidbits to back up my impression of him defensively:
*I note he has a career +0.6 DBPM [for whatever that's worth], and does so without notable defensive rebounding numbers.
**In '95 he's tied for 20th in the league in Backpicks AuPM (was 19th in colt18's pseudo-APM). In '96 he's tied for 26th in the league in both of those measures. I'm skeptical he'd be capable of such ranks if the defensive component were complete crap.
***In '97 his NPI DRAPM is a solid +1.28 (fwiw, he's 9th in the league in combined RAPM that year).
****In '98 his PI DRAPM is +0.70 (NPI is +0.32).
*****In '99 his PI DRAPM is +0.02 (NPI is -0.25). In his final season ['00] is the first year where both are negative (though only small negatives [around -0.3]).

None of this is suggesting he was a poor defender, and there's actually a fair bit to suggest he was reasonably capable during his prime.
Not to say he's in Jrue's tier defensively. I'm merely speaking to language that implied he was trash on that end.


Re: tanking efficiency when given primacy
Yeah, they took dips, but to be fair: he had a cushion on these things vs Jrue Holiday.

His modified TOV% in '93 [first year in Philly] was 7.71%. That's still perfectly respectable for a combo guard (and still slightly better than Jrue's career mark, fwiw, which is 8.26%).
His shooting efficiency that year is still marginally better than Jrue's prime rTS%, too.

Hornacek in '93 averaged 19.1 pts @ +1.7% rTS with 6.9 ast and 2.8 tov.
Prime Jrue's best primacy years in NOP ('18 to '20) averaged 19.7 pts @ -0.5% rTS with 6.8 ast and 2.9 tov. His primacy (though also the attention the defense gave him) were off-set by playing next to AD for two of those three years).

In '92 (when Hornacek was surrounded by talent), he averaged 20.1 pts @ +6.1% rTS with 5.1 ast and 2.1 tov [fwiw].

In a variety of environments, Hornacek was consistently more efficient than Jrue. Only by a smidge when forced into a primacy role, but by kind of a lot when afforded the situation he was best-suited to [that of a 1ab/2nd/3rd option].

[Doctor MJ]

Could Jrue catch Hornacek with deep playoff run this year? Jeff is TOP100 player by realgm forum (2020). What kind of chances has Jrue get into this year TOP100?

So first thing I'll say is that when you talk about guys deep in the Top 100, you're not talking about any real consensus. As such, I really have no idea where Hornacek will end up next time - solid chance he doesn't make the Top 100 even though I don't think his reputation has dropped from last time around. Hence, I don't think it will really be about whether Jrue can move past Jeff.

As for Jrue's chances, I think the odds are slim currently, but this could change with the right post-season run. If the Bucks win another title, then that opens the door a lot wider for Jrue and/or Khris Middleton to get into the Top 100, depending on how they play.

[ronnymac2]

There's a massive gap defensively. Jeff Hornacek provided no resistance whatsoever to offensive wings players during that era. His REG SEA rep, box score profile, team DRTG...then we get to the playoffs where he was partially responsible for point guards and wings eviscerating his teams over the course of a decade.

Jrue Holiday is one of the finest defensive guards of his era. He constantly grades out highly in defensive impact metrics, he's played strong defense on very strong defensive teams (REG SEA and Playoffs), and he's regarded as a top defensive player in terms of awards/recognition, which seem to actually be well-deserved based on individual and team statistical defensive results. So regardless of what your preference for analysis of defense is, Jrue is certified as one of the best defensive guards of the millenium.

The primacy he had as a lead guard in New Orleans outstrips anything Hornacek ever had to do. Hornacek has the three years in PHX where he's a secondary playmaker and posts USG% lower than prime Jrue (and to be fair, Horny was much more efficient). But once he lands in Philly - which admittedly was a dumpster-fire and neither Hornacek's nor Hersey Hawkins' fault - his primacy goes much higher, and his efficiency falls down considerably. That stellar TOV% he had in PHX and that he would later exhibit in Utah is no longer impressive. Even his scoring efficiency dives.

He goes to Utah and is put in a perfect position as the clear third-best offensive player on strong offensive teams. This is a valuable player for sure. But Jrue proved himself much more as a passer/playmaker. They are both lead guards, but Jrue has more of that point guard in him than Jeff did. Jeff is the better shooter for sure, but Jrue has like a 650-game sample size shooting 3's at 1.6 makes per game at 36% (even better if looking only at the last three years).

I'm taking Jrue in his prime pretty easily. That archetype of all-league defender (who can guard either guard position) who manages the game well, provides spacing, and can provide scoring as a 2B option (or ideally third option) but at the cost of high turnovers is more valuable to me than an unselfish, take-nothing-off-the-table shooter and limited creator who gives me nothing but average-at-best defense.

Fair(ish) points, and it's not controversial to take Jrue in this comparison (I'd actually probably take Jrue for one peak season, or "best 3 years" or similar; for career I still probably go with Hornacek, though I expect Jrue's probably gonna catch him there, too).

However, I wanted to respond [or at least provide some additional info] toward a couple of points made above.....

Re: Hornacek defense
I disagree that he was some kind of sieve defensively. Hornacek wasn't the quickest, but he positioned well, had decent footwork, gave good effort, was physical [at least I remember him being so in his Utah years], and had quick hands.
As a few tidbits to back up my impression of him defensively:
*I note he has a career +0.6 DBPM [for whatever that's worth], and does so without notable defensive rebounding numbers.
**In '95 he's tied for 20th in the league in Backpicks AuPM (was 19th in colt18's pseudo-APM). In '96 he's tied for 26th in the league in both of those measures. I'm skeptical he'd be capable of such ranks if the defensive component were complete crap.
***In '97 his NPI DRAPM is a solid +1.28 (fwiw, he's 9th in the league in combined RAPM that year).
****In '98 his PI DRAPM is +0.70 (NPI is +0.32).
*****In '99 his PI DRAPM is +0.02 (NPI is -0.25). In his final season ['00] is the first year where both are negative (though only small negatives [around -0.3]).

None of this is suggesting he was a poor defender, and there's actually a fair bit to suggest he was reasonably capable during his prime.
Not to say he's in Jrue's tier defensively. I'm merely speaking to language that implied he was trash on that end.


Re: tanking efficiency when given primacy
Yeah, they took dips, but to be fair: he had a cushion on these things vs Jrue Holiday.

His modified TOV% in '93 [first year in Philly] was 7.71%. That's still perfectly respectable for a combo guard (and still slightly better than Jrue's career mark, fwiw, which is 8.26%).
His shooting efficiency that year is still marginally better than Jrue's prime rTS%, too.

Hornacek in '93 averaged 19.1 pts @ +1.7% rTS with 6.9 ast and 2.8 tov.
Prime Jrue's best primacy years in NOP ('18 to '20) averaged 19.7 pts @ -0.5% rTS with 6.8 ast and 2.9 tov. His primacy (though also the attention the defense gave him) were off-set by playing next to AD for two of those three years).

In '92 (when Hornacek was surrounded by talent), he averaged 20.1 pts @ +6.1% rTS with 5.1 ast and 2.1 tov [fwiw].

In a variety of environments, Hornacek was consistently more efficient than Jrue. Only by a smidge when forced into a primacy role, but by kind of a lot when afforded the situation he was best-suited to [that of a 1ab/2nd/3rd option].

Do the RAPM defensive measures take into account his defensive role? I would hope he does a good job if he's tasked with defending the other team's worst offensive perimeter threat. I would venture a guess that his defensive usage if we had some sort of approximation would be below average in that environment. That's not a reasonably capable defensive piece to me.

To me, those numbers need more context before I start calling Hornacek reasonably capable. His PHX and UTA teams have a track record of being eviscerated by perimeter players in the playoffs, and based on rep and eye test and admittedly potentially faulty memory, it didn't seem like Hornacek provided much resistance.

As far as the offense, I appreciate that you take turnovers seriously. It often gets overlooked. Taking Hornacek on offense due to efficiency is definitely reasonable. Not that it matters, but I do think Hornacek's shooting would translate well to Jrue's era of 3-point shooting. Jeff was great in his own era and was a tremendous free throw shooter.