Where would peak Dirk rank in the league today?

[Medbrat]

Jokic and Luka are clearly better. I'd put him 3rd but it all depends on how much of a KG nuthugger you are.

Warned. trex

[capfan33]

Well, at least we've dropped "his numbers would go up!!!", so that's neat.

Lol Dirk wasn’t that big of an outlier in terms of being a big that could shoot. There were plenty of bigs that had 3pt range, certainly by the time he was in the latter half of his prime. None of them were close to as good as Dirk. Dirk was an outlier because he could kill you from everywhere, not just because he was a big that could shoot well. That’s just…way too basic of a take.

Because Jokic and Karl Anthony Towns can only kill you from beyond the arc... Sometimes it's better to be basic. Congrats on(kinda?) addressing my point though. Dirk is still less of an outlier now than he was back then, and 3-point shooting is obviously part of that(and that would apply to mid-range anyway...). Hence, Dirk is worse.

Yes, he was a good 3-pt shooter. But no, that was not his game. He wasn't souped up Davis Bertans lol.

It was certainly a substantial part of his game, and uh, see above. Pedantry will get you nowhere. Dirk was not a good passer(sorry "didn't make too many mistakes on dramatically lower volume than actual playmakers" is not my bar), and he wasn't a good ball-handler, and now there is an abundance of big-men who are good to very good at both.

You win games by outscoring the opposition, not by being "Unstoppable"(which no one actually is). That bigs are much better shooters(from everywhere) now is a big big issue for Dirk making a top 3 push.

I'm going to guess that's why you keep repeating "Dirk is not just a stretch big". No, I'd hope not, because then we'd be asking if he makes the nba. Instead, we're asking if he's top 10, top 5, top 3. Let me know when you want to make an argument for that. As of now, all you've really done is conflate your failure to follow what other people are saying as a failing on the people you keep misrepresenting.

Honestly, I agree with Texas on this point, Dirk really didn't take many 3s especially compared to modern players but even compared to others during that time period. Just a cursory glance at his BBall reference page, he peaked at 4.9 attempts a game, a lot for a 7-footer back then but hardly earth-shattering. He finished top-10 in attempts once in his entire prime. 3-point shooting was a relatively small tool of his game and not anywhere close to the crux of his impact.

In his MVP season, he had 2.2 attempts per game and in his best 3-year postseason run he averaged 2 attempts per game. And he was a pretty decent ball-handler. Even if we take it at face value it was good enough for him to run pick and rolls as the ball-handler and faceup consistently at 16-18 feet. Compared to Giannis or someone it wasn't great for sure, but more than enough for it to be a sizable chunk of his scoring skillset. And he probably was capable of doing more than he showed although this is conjecture.

[No-more-rings]

Jokic and Luka are clearly better. I'd put him 3rd but it all depends on how much of a KG nuthugger you are.

Garnett isn’t currently in the league.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm going to guess that's why you keep repeating "Dirk is not just a stretch big". No, I'd hope not, because then we'd be asking if he makes the nba. Instead, we're asking if he's top 10, top 5, top 3. Let me know when you want to make an argument for that. As of now, all you've really done is conflate your failure to follow what other people are saying as a failing on the people you keep misrepresenting.

I'm going to repeat that because its the truth. Your attempt to minimize him by insisting otherwise is pointless. Please stop.

I follow what you are saying fine. What you are saying is simply incorrect. The issue isn't me misrepresenting you. It's you (intentionally) misrepresenting Dirk.

I could care less where you would rate him today. Have him out of the league if you want. That's completely irrelevant to me. All I've asked is that you not lie about how his actual career.

And if you think Dirk didn't create more great shots for teammates than better passers like say KG or Divac, I don't know what to tell you other than your take on basketball is too simplistic if you think creation requires an assist to be logged on your box score.

But go read any contemporary accounts from opposing coaches on Dirk. I promise you he was one of the most feared offensive players in the league. And not seen as a stretch big.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Pushing for top 3 along with Steph, KD, Luka. Behind Jokic/Embiid/Giannis for me.

Jokic and Luka are clearly better. I'd put him 3rd but it all depends on how much of a KG nuthugger you are.

Luka clearly better than Dirk? Hard disagree on that one

[OhayoKD]

Well, at least we've dropped "his numbers would go up!!!", so that's neat.

Because Jokic and Karl Anthony Towns can only kill you from beyond the arc... Sometimes it's better to be basic. Congrats on(kinda?) addressing my point though. Dirk is still less of an outlier now than he was back then, and 3-point shooting is obviously part of that(and that would apply to mid-range anyway...). Hence, Dirk is worse.


It was certainly a substantial part of his game, and uh, see above. Pedantry will get you nowhere. Dirk was not a good passer(sorry "didn't make too many mistakes on dramatically lower volume than actual playmakers" is not my bar), and he wasn't a good ball-handler, and now there is an abundance of big-men who are good to very good at both.

You win games by outscoring the opposition, not by being "Unstoppable"(which no one actually is). That bigs are much better shooters(from everywhere) now is a big big issue for Dirk making a top 3 push.

I'm going to guess that's why you keep repeating "Dirk is not just a stretch big". No, I'd hope not, because then we'd be asking if he makes the nba. Instead, we're asking if he's top 10, top 5, top 3. Let me know when you want to make an argument for that. As of now, all you've really done is conflate your failure to follow what other people are saying as a failing on the people you keep misrepresenting.

Honestly, I agree with Texas on this point, Dirk really didn't take many 3s especially compared to modern players but even compared to others during that time period. Just a cursory glance at his BBall reference page, he peaked at 4.9 attempts a game, a lot for a 7-footer back then but hardly earth-shattering. He finished top-10 in attempts once in his entire prime. 3-point shooting was a relatively small tool of his game and not anywhere close to the crux of his impact.

In his MVP season, he had 2.2 attempts per game and in his best 3-year postseason run he averaged 2 attempts per game. And he was a pretty decent ball-handler. Even if we take it at face value it was good enough for him to run pick and rolls as the ball-handler and faceup consistently at 16-18 feet. Compared to Giannis or someone it wasn't great for sure, but more than enough for it to be a sizable chunk of his scoring skillset. And he probably was capable of doing more than he showed although this is conjecture.

Okay, but remember, creation isn't simply about how often you use a weapon, it's about how other teams react to that threat. Regardless of his 3pa, defenders would meet him or follow him out to the 3-point line, even when he didn't have the ball:
https://youtu.be/54yUJ0nk1Y?t=122
Wade was meeting Dirk at the perimeter for a large chunk of possessions, even if only a fraction of those possessions ended with a 3-point shot. The value of range is that defenders have to worry about you(and allow openings for teammates) over a larger section of the court. This also created openings for him as a scorer, as he would cut inside after losing defenders at the edge. As it is, fixating on the attempts is kind of missing the point here. Part of the point of throwing defenders at Dirk is to limit his volume.

Regardless though, bigs have gotten better at shooting from everywhere, so how much of his creation you want to attribute to gravity in x part of the court doesn't really change the gist here. If your argument here is that Dirk actually didn't stretch defenses that much, then that's not going to bode well when he plays in a league with players like this:
https://youtu.be/UW51k7QjTHU?t=69

[OhayoKD]

I'm going to guess that's why you keep repeating "Dirk is not just a stretch big". No, I'd hope not, because then we'd be asking if he makes the nba. Instead, we're asking if he's top 10, top 5, top 3. Let me know when you want to make an argument for that. As of now, all you've really done is conflate your failure to follow what other people are saying as a failing on the people you keep misrepresenting.

The issue isn't me misrepresenting you

What I said: "He had a big advantage as a stretch big"

What you pretended I said: "Dirk was only a stretch big"

What I said: "Dirk's going to fare worse relative to better passers now

What you pretended I said: "Dirk was outcreated by KG"

So no. You wasted four pages trying to attack low hanging fruit because you don't actually have a counter-argument.

PS: I'm pretty sure your claim about Dirk outcreating Garnett is blatantly false, but hey, keep "repeating truth"

[OhayoKD]

Putting Jokic, Giannis ahead pretty confidently. Curry has health concerns but if healthy, he's a pretty easy pick as well. A healthy postseason probably puts Embid ahead. Case to be made Luka is already there.

Honestly suprised people think he translates so well. Dirk suffers from a relative lack of versatility and that fairly big advantage he had in his time as a stretch big isn't nearly as pronounced now.

A historically great 7' offensive force with unguardable moves and unlimited range who becomes even better in the playoffs are coveted in any era.

Also...for posterity

We've now gone from citing Dirk's "unlimited range" to pretending it wasn't relevant. But keep backtracking I guess

[D.Brasco]

Jokic and Luka are clearly better. I'd put him 3rd but it all depends on how much of a KG nuthugger you are.

So you consider Jokic and Luka 1 and 2 best players in the league? Where does Giannis fit in to you?

[Colbinii]

Jokic and Luka are clearly better. I'd put him 3rd but it all depends on how much of a KG nuthugger you are.

What does KG have to do with this thread?

[capfan33]

Honestly, I agree with Texas on this point, Dirk really didn't take many 3s especially compared to modern players but even compared to others during that time period. Just a cursory glance at his BBall reference page, he peaked at 4.9 attempts a game, a lot for a 7-footer back then but hardly earth-shattering. He finished top-10 in attempts once in his entire prime. 3-point shooting was a relatively small tool of his game and not anywhere close to the crux of his impact.

In his MVP season, he had 2.2 attempts per game and in his best 3-year postseason run he averaged 2 attempts per game. And he was a pretty decent ball-handler. Even if we take it at face value it was good enough for him to run pick and rolls as the ball-handler and faceup consistently at 16-18 feet. Compared to Giannis or someone it wasn't great for sure, but more than enough for it to be a sizable chunk of his scoring skillset. And he probably was capable of doing more than he showed although this is conjecture.

Okay, but remember, creation isn't simply about how often you use a weapon, it's about how other teams react to that threat. Regardless of his 3pa, defenders would meet him or follow him out to the 3-point line, even when he didn't have the ball:
https://youtu.be/54yUJ0nk1Y?t=122
Wade was meeting Dirk at the perimeter for a large chunk of possessions, even if only a fraction of those possessions ended with a 3-point shot. The value of range is that defenders have to worry about you(and allow openings for teammates) over a larger section of the court. This also created openings for him as a scorer, as he would cut inside after losing defenders at the edge. As it is, fixating on the attempts is kind of missing the point here. Part of the point of throwing defenders at Dirk is to limit his volume.

Regardless though, bigs have gotten better at shooting from everywhere, so how much of his creation you want to attribute to gravity in x part of the court doesn't really change the gist here. If your argument here is that Dirk actually didn't stretch defenses that much, then that's not going to bode well when he plays in a league with players like this:
https://youtu.be/UW51k7QjTHU?t=69

Gravity is definitely a factor, but as Texas said if you asked opposing coaches what they were game planning against, they would say pick and pop in the midrange, faceup around the elbow/nail, and then posting mismatches. 3-point shooting would probably be 4th.

And the thing with Dirk is that it's precisely the fact that he takes so many midrange shots and shoots them so accurately that made him such a nightmare because those are the shots teams want you to take. He didn't really have unlimited range as some here have suggested, he rarely took shots well behind the 3-point line, but his midrange game threw a massive wrench in every team's game plan that he played against because it goes against every trend that has existed in the game for the past 30 years. Don't take my word for it.

Of all the great pick-and-pop players, this is what makes Dirk unique. A shot from anywhere on the court is a good look for Nowitzki. No other player, except for perhaps Steph Curry, is such an accurate and skilled shotmaker that they make even long 2s efficient. And guess what? This drives opposing coaches nuts.

“I don’t ever remember game planning for a player as a coach and being kinda conflicted because this guy makes a shot you want everybody in basketball to take,” says Karl.

Very few players can make a coach reconsider his entire defensive philosophy for one game. Yet it’s unlikely that Karl is the only coach to ever question his approach in games against Dallas. It’s this skill, combined with an innovative tactic from Nelson, that turned the pick-and-pop with Dirk from a hard play to guard into an impossible one.

This is the crux of his impact, not 3s. Somewhat like Durant, except Dirk has an even higher release point and is stronger than Durant, which gives him more resiliency.

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/