Tank World Order (10.0) The Empire Strikes Back

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's one thing to think the team is making a mistake on any move or non-move, it's something entirely different to throw years long tantrums over these things and take it out on individual players or even other fans.

If Ujiri fails to build a winner, it's his fault. He gets to make all the critical decisions.

[720]

I don’t understand why we’re so desperate to get swept in the first round

No one is desperate to get swept in the first round. There is just not tangible proof that getting higher picks at the expense of selling off assets at a fraction of the value leads title. It just... hasn't happened.

So the attitude that people are dumb and ignorant because they want to go down that road is ... weird.

Is it possible that as we see more teams go that path, we'll see more tangible results? Sure... I'm open to that being the case. But so far, no evidence.

Do you want me to show you that list I showed you last time where literally 80-90 percent of every champion the past three decades has superstar players that they drafted on their roster? You and others like you come into this thread and talk in circles. This was the case in Tampa year as well. I don’t get it. Drafting a superstar is key. Has been for 3 decades.

Scottie could be that guy, even if he is, pivoting to the draft in a year like this one makes more sense then a play in tournament.

[OakleyDokely]

I don’t understand why we’re so desperate to get swept in the first round

No one is desperate to get swept in the first round. There is just not tangible proof that getting higher picks at the expense of selling off assets at a fraction of the value leads title. It just... hasn't happened.

So the attitude that people are dumb and ignorant because they want to go down that road is ... weird.

Is it possible that as we see more teams go that path, we'll see more tangible results? Sure... I'm open to that being the case. But so far, no evidence.

Do you want me to show you that list I showed you last time where literally 80-90 percent of every champion the past three decades has superstar players that they drafted on their roster? You and others like you come into this thread and talk in circles. This was the case in Tampa year as well. I don’t get it. Drafting a superstar is key. Has been for 3 decades.

Scottie could be that guy, even if he is, pivoting to the draft in a year like this one makes more sense then a play in tournament.

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

[Tacoma]

I don’t understand why we’re so desperate to get swept in the first round

No one is desperate to get swept in the first round. There is just not tangible proof that getting higher picks at the expense of selling off assets at a fraction of the value leads title. It just... hasn't happened.

So the attitude that people are dumb and ignorant because they want to go down that road is ... weird.

Is it possible that as we see more teams go that path, we'll see more tangible results? Sure... I'm open to that being the case. But so far, no evidence.

My view is I would've preferred to tank this year to finish with the 6th highest lottery odds vs our current path which appears to be a pick in the 15-17 range. Then come back next season with another lottery pick on the roster and retool by signings and trading one of our UFAs.

Exactly this. Last year’s playoff experience meant nothing as it resulted in this year’s dreadful season. Tank or not, we are going nowhere this season.

So writing it off to get as high a draft pick as possible this summer would have been the best move for the future beyond this year. One year tank then retool this summer.

Masai’s infamous “playoffs/play-in for what” was right. Not whatever he’s doing this season.

[Duffman100]

I don’t understand why we’re so desperate to get swept in the first round

No one is desperate to get swept in the first round. There is just not tangible proof that getting higher picks at the expense of selling off assets at a fraction of the value leads title. It just... hasn't happened.

So the attitude that people are dumb and ignorant because they want to go down that road is ... weird.

Is it possible that as we see more teams go that path, we'll see more tangible results? Sure... I'm open to that being the case. But so far, no evidence.

Do you want me to show you that list I showed you last time where literally 80-90 percent of every champion the past three decades has superstar players that they drafted on their roster? You and others like you come into this thread and talk in circles. This was the case in Tampa year as well. I don’t get it. Drafting a superstar is key. Has been for 3 decades.

Scottie could be that guy, even if he is, pivoting to the draft in a year like this one makes more sense then a play in tournament.

And do you want me to again show you that some of those players didn't win titles with the teams that drafted them? That some of those players were taken in the 8-15 range? That the chances of drafting a top 10 player of all time vs someone like Blake Griffin vs someone like Hasheem Thabeet are staggering?

You tend not to actually acknowledge the counter arguments that people make and instead say "well tanking works".

Again, it doesn't and no numbers tend to show that tanking works. The Thunder is the best example and they made the finals once.

[OakleyDokely]

No one is desperate to get swept in the first round. There is just not tangible proof that getting higher picks at the expense of selling off assets at a fraction of the value leads title. It just... hasn't happened.

So the attitude that people are dumb and ignorant because they want to go down that road is ... weird.

Is it possible that as we see more teams go that path, we'll see more tangible results? Sure... I'm open to that being the case. But so far, no evidence.

My view is I would've preferred to tank this year to finish with the 6th highest lottery odds vs our current path which appears to be a pick in the 15-17 range. Then come back next season with another lottery pick on the roster and retool by signings and trading one of our UFAs.

Exactly this. Last year’s playoff experience meant nothing as it resulted in this year’s dreadful season. Tank or not, we are going nowhere this season.

So writing it off to get as high a draft pick as possible this summer would have been the best move for the future beyond this year. One year tank then retool this summer.

Masai’s infamous “playoffs/play-in for what” was right. Not whatever he’s doing this season.

The TB situation was different because the Raps had legit injuries that kept guys out for extended stretches, plus it was during the pandemic when guys were in and out of the lineup anyways. Also, it was a shorter season and the Raps had no home games, which helped with the losing.

This years Raps have a healthy roster currently and their net rating is 14th or 15th. Unless they traded away 3-4 core players by the deadline, I don't see how they wouldn't be in the play-in mix this year given all the parity.

[720]

No one is desperate to get swept in the first round. There is just not tangible proof that getting higher picks at the expense of selling off assets at a fraction of the value leads title. It just... hasn't happened.

So the attitude that people are dumb and ignorant because they want to go down that road is ... weird.

Is it possible that as we see more teams go that path, we'll see more tangible results? Sure... I'm open to that being the case. But so far, no evidence.

Do you want me to show you that list I showed you last time where literally 80-90 percent of every champion the past three decades has superstar players that they drafted on their roster? You and others like you come into this thread and talk in circles. This was the case in Tampa year as well. I don’t get it. Drafting a superstar is key. Has been for 3 decades.

Scottie could be that guy, even if he is, pivoting to the draft in a year like this one makes more sense then a play in tournament.

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

[Duffman100]

Do you want me to show you that list I showed you last time where literally 80-90 percent of every champion the past three decades has superstar players that they drafted on their roster? You and others like you come into this thread and talk in circles. This was the case in Tampa year as well. I don’t get it. Drafting a superstar is key. Has been for 3 decades.

Scottie could be that guy, even if he is, pivoting to the draft in a year like this one makes more sense then a play in tournament.

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

So let's go through them.

Kobe forced his way to the Lakers, because the Lakers. They also happened to sign a guy named Shaq. That helped a little.
Warriors didn't tank. And they grabbed Curry at 8. Let's look at the talent level of 8.
Mavs didn't tank, Dirk was taken 9th.
Spurs didn't tank, Robinson had a foot injury.
Heat signed Lebron that sort of helped Wade
Cavs had Lebron come back which you know, helped as they tanked in between.
Pierce had Allen and Garnett join him. And was taken 10th.

By your logic, we fell, drafted Scottie and should be good now right?

[OakleyDokely]

Do you want me to show you that list I showed you last time where literally 80-90 percent of every champion the past three decades has superstar players that they drafted on their roster? You and others like you come into this thread and talk in circles. This was the case in Tampa year as well. I don’t get it. Drafting a superstar is key. Has been for 3 decades.

Scottie could be that guy, even if he is, pivoting to the draft in a year like this one makes more sense then a play in tournament.

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

The lottery is a very wide range.

As of right now, the Raps would pick in the lottery.

[God Squad]

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

So let's go through them.

Kobe forced his way to the Lakers, because the Lakers. They also happened to sign a guy named Shaq. That helped a little.
Warriors didn't tank. And they grabbed Curry at 8. Let's look at the talent level of 8.
Mavs didn't tank, Dirk was taken 9th.
Spurs didn't tank, Robinson had a foot injury.
Heat signed Lebron that sort of helped Wade
Cavs had Lebron come back which you know, helped as they tanked in between.
Pierce had Allen and Garnett join him. And was taken 10th.

By your logic, we fell, drafted Scottie and should be good now right?

Wade won pre Lebron with an aging Shaq, so there's no debating his chip. But I think 720's point is all those players were taken in the lottery. So we should be focusing on the lottery and not picking 18th and looking for the playoffs/play-in. But I'm of the mindset there is no "blueprint" in order to build a contender. But one thing is certain, you need allstars/superstar player in order to achieve it.

[God Squad]

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

The lottery is a very wide range.

As of right now, the Raps would pick in the lottery.

Yeah, but we're at the tailend of the lotto. Probably end up picking in the 14-16 range.

[720]

Make sure to post where those players were taken in the draft.

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

So let's go through them.

Kobe forced his way to the Lakers, because the Lakers. They also happened to sign a guy named Shaq. That helped a little.
Warriors didn't tank. And they grabbed Curry at 8. Let's look at the talent level of 8.
Mavs didn't tank, Dirk was taken 9th.
Spurs didn't tank, Robinson had a foot injury.
Heat signed Lebron that sort of helped Wade
Cavs had Lebron come back which you know, helped as they tanked in between.
Pierce had Allen and Garnett join him. And was taken 10th.

By your logic, we fell, drafted Scottie and should be good now right?

Why are you talking about tanking when my point is about how crucial drafting in the lottery is? Stop deflecting. No one is asking for a Hinkie type tank. Again, stop changing the conversation.

Also, you can try and spin this however you like but a lottery pick that ends up being a superstar and a pillar of a franchise is essentially a MUST if we’re going off history.

[Duffman100]

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

So let's go through them.

Kobe forced his way to the Lakers, because the Lakers. They also happened to sign a guy named Shaq. That helped a little.
Warriors didn't tank. And they grabbed Curry at 8. Let's look at the talent level of 8.
Mavs didn't tank, Dirk was taken 9th.
Spurs didn't tank, Robinson had a foot injury.
Heat signed Lebron that sort of helped Wade
Cavs had Lebron come back which you know, helped as they tanked in between.
Pierce had Allen and Garnett join him. And was taken 10th.

By your logic, we fell, drafted Scottie and should be good now right?

Wade won pre Lebron with an aging Shaq, so there's no debating his chip. But I think 720's point is all those players were taken in the lottery. So we should be focusing on the lottery and not picking 18th and looking for the playoffs/play-in. But I'm of the mindset there is no "blueprint" in order to build a contender. But one thing is certain, you need allstars/superstar player in order to achieve it.

Of course you need superstar players to win. That's without a doubt. But so many of these examples have stories around them that are all different and make the blueprint different.

To say "Well the only path for us to win is to tank and pick in the lottery' just isn't the case. And has so many other factors at play.

With Curry being taken 8th, Dirk 9th, Giannis 15th, Kawhi 15h, Pierce 10th, Kobe 13th. Factor in everything else that happened for the teams that won with those players.

[ItsDanger]

Don't need to draft a superstar, we'll just get one in free agency. LOL

[KL78192020]

Dude these guys know what we're talking about. They just ask the same questions or act dumb because they can't handle a season or two of maybe not getting killed in the first round and instead accumulate assets through the draft and a trade or two.

Or maybe there are few to no examples of tanking teams winning the title in recent memory.

That's what I can see so far, but maybe TWO is using a different metric that we are not aware of. All I'm asking is to take 30 seasons and show how many teams in those 30 seasons were successful with tanking as a strategy. That's all, very basic research method. You must have a basis for an argument to have an argument. Right now this whole thread is a baseless claim.

I guess the Raptors will never win a championship with Scottie since they tanked to get him.

[Duffman100]

Lottery,

Curry, Klay, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Kobe (traded into lottery), Pierce, Robinson, Jordan, Hakeem, and Isiah.

All lottery picks, all won chips with the team that drafted them. The only teams outside of this criteria are the Bucks, Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, 04 Pistons. That’s 4 championships in the last 3 decades. Everyone else falls into the list above, lotto picks that became stars.

So let's go through them.

Kobe forced his way to the Lakers, because the Lakers. They also happened to sign a guy named Shaq. That helped a little.
Warriors didn't tank. And they grabbed Curry at 8. Let's look at the talent level of 8.
Mavs didn't tank, Dirk was taken 9th.
Spurs didn't tank, Robinson had a foot injury.
Heat signed Lebron that sort of helped Wade
Cavs had Lebron come back which you know, helped as they tanked in between.
Pierce had Allen and Garnett join him. And was taken 10th.

By your logic, we fell, drafted Scottie and should be good now right?

Why are you talking about tanking when my point is about how crucial drafting in the lottery is? Stop deflecting. No one is asking for a Hinkie type tank. Again, stop changing the conversation.

Also, you can try and spin this however you like but a lottery pick that ends up being a superstar and a pillar of a franchise is essentially a MUST if we’re going off history.

I'm not deflecting. You're just not quite grasping what's being discussed.

You're putting a binary argument into a nuanced, multi pathed and directional playbook. There is no one way to win a title.

Otherwise, having drafted Scottie at 4th, we'd be all good to go.

[OakleyDokely]

Last 15 Finals MVP and how they were acquired:

GS Curry - Drafted 7th
MIL Giannis - Drafted 15th
LAL Lebron - Free Agent
TOR Kawhi - Trade
GS Durant - Free Agent
GS Durant - Free Agent
CLE Lebron - Free Agent
GS Iguodala - Free Agent
SA Kawhi - Drafted 15th
MIA Lebron - Free Agent
MIA Lebron - Free Agent
DAL Dirk - Drafted 9th (Draft Trade)
LAL Kobe - Drafted 13th (Draft Trade)
LAL Kobe - Drafted 13th (Draft Trade)
BOS Pierce - Drafted 10th

[Duffman100]

Don't need to draft a superstar, we'll just get one in free agency. LOL

Trade for one (like we did).
Sign one.
Draft one in the early / mid / ate lottery.
Draft one in the first round.
Draft one, have them leave, have them sign back.
Have one force their way to your team to play with someone (maybe Scottie)

How many different ways have teams won titles in the past 30 years? It isn't just LOSE and DRAFT. Otherwise we'd see a lot of other teams winning the title.

[ItsDanger]

Uhh, we traded 2 lottery picks to get that one fluke. Honestly, this isn't a great strategy for fan interest. Shouldn't everyone just tune out until this trade occurs?

[ATLTimekeeper]

Uhh, we traded 2 lottery picks to get that one fluke. Honestly, this isn't a great strategy for fan interest. Shouldn't everyone just tune out until this trade occurs?

If you need to do that most of us would support you.