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[2poor]

No. 1 on that list: Don't trade Jacque Jones.

Heavily criticized, regularly booed and on the trading block for much of his two seasons with the Cubs, the outfielder who nearly was traded to the Florida Marlins in June should be considered a must-keep player going into next season.

The most immediate reason is the Cubs don't have a better center-field option going into next season -- again, assuming they won't be in the market for high-priced free agents such as Torii Hunter, Aaron Rowand or Andruw Jones.

Felix Pie? Forget it. He has speed and a strong arm, but he's not a major-league hitter, and it's questionable whether he ever will be. In fact, the Cubs would be better off trading Pie now, while his perceived value is high enough to get serious return for him. It was obvious by the end of the season -- and after a .216 batting average during his three shots at the starting center-field job -- that manager Lou Piniella isn't convinced the reality matches the hype with Pie.

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I think he's off-base with regards to Pie. Pie didn't blow up, sure, but he wasn't exactly playing under the ideal circumstances for a young guy. Give him a full spring training and the CF job opening day (and not in the middle of a division/playoff race), and we'll see a better product. I think Piniella understood this too, which is why he didn't try to force the issue down the stretch.

[IbreakNeckZ101]

i've been a supporter of Pie... but it's really sinking in that this kid just can't play major league ball.. he looks so clueless at the plate. Hes had too many chances to step up and by now he should of figured it out/

[2poor]

All I can really say is you're passing judgment on Pie unfairly and far too early.

What Lou was looking for from Pie was an "instant impact" sort of deal like he got with Soto. Pie didn't provide this but it doesn't mean that he's all of the sudden damaged goods and beyond repair.

He needs a full offseason with him pegged as the starting CF on opening day to get all the parts moving in the right direction.

[IbreakNeckZ101]

All I can really say is you're passing judgment on Pie unfairly and far too early.

What Lou was looking for from Pie was an "instant impact" sort of deal like he got with Soto. Pie didn't provide this but it doesn't mean that he's all of the sudden damaged goods and beyond repair.

He needs a full offseason with him pegged as the starting CF on opening day to get all the parts moving in the right direction.

i don't think lou was looking for an instant impact.. Pie just couldn't get it done*.215 BA* i have hope for Pie though. but next season is a do or die for him. If he can't get it done i have faith lou will replace him.

[IlliniNRG]

All I can really say is you're passing judgment on Pie unfairly and far too early.

What Lou was looking for from Pie was an "instant impact" sort of deal like he got with Soto. Pie didn't provide this but it doesn't mean that he's all of the sudden damaged goods and beyond repair.

He needs a full offseason with him pegged as the starting CF on opening day to get all the parts moving in the right direction.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but contending teams do NOT gift a starting outfield spot to someone with a .604 lifetime OPS.

Not that I think Pie has proven that he does or does not have a future yet. To compare him with Corey Patterson, we didn't get rid of the latter until he was 26. Pie is 22. So Pie at least still has time left.

[Posey H8er]

Pie dominated his peers more than Patterson did. Not to say he will be better than Patterson, but I think he will be. He had an amazing career in the minors, so that brings my hopes up that he can figure out how to be successful with the big boys. He already has amazing speed, and plays great defense with a way better arm than Corey ever had.

[Angry Jimmy]

But Patterson actually looked better at the plate as rookie than Pie did.

[GYBE]

Patterson at Iowa (Age 21)
.253/.308/.387 .695 OPS

Pie at Iowa (Age 22)
.362/.410/.563 .973 OPS

Patterson had serious problems with his game that the Cubs ignored. He never had plate discipline, he got worse on every level but they kept promoting him. His early "success" with the Cubs was more a fluke than anything.

Pie has only gotten better at every level and has much better plate discipline. Those numbers are really, really good. That's why many, including I, think he just has to figure out MLB pitching eventually. He's had too much success in Triple AAA at a fairly young age to be this bad.

[Rodanlee]

Pie dominated his peers more than Patterson did. Not to say he will be better than Patterson, but I think he will be. He had an amazing career in the minors, so that brings my hopes up that he can figure out how to be successful with the big boys. He already has amazing speed, and plays great defense with a way better arm than Corey ever had.

corey had a gun for an arm

[cold5]

Pie was up for a while in September, and he droven in a run. Does that not prove something? What about Andruw or Rowand? I like both of them very much and wouldn't mind either one.

[SportsWorld]

Jones sucked this year and I don't want him on our team.
Pie>Jones

I would love Aaron Rowand on this team but it is very unlikely.

[treyZz]

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I understand where you're coming from with this, but contending teams do NOT gift a starting outfield spot to someone with a .604 lifetime OPS.

Not that I think Pie has proven that he does or does not have a future yet. To compare him with Corey Patterson, we didn't get rid of the latter until he was 26. Pie is 22. So Pie at least still has time left.

I love how people are bringing lifetime OPS stats when he hasn't even played a full season.

Pie's first stint and first half @ AAA wasn't very good either, but he got better everyday. IMO he has looked better and better at the plate as the season went on. He was just getting yanked around by Lou which didn't make sense.. Lou didn't want to commit to him, because he wanted to play the vets.

And I totally disagree about not giving an OF spot to a 5 tool 22 year old who is a tremendous upgrade in CF. Contending teams usually don't have the luxury of bringing up a player of Pie's caliber.

The Braves brought up Andruw Jones during there WS run and his bat wasn't very good at the time. They let him play, because although he wasn't driving in runs he was taking runs off the board.

Jacque Jones is terrible. I cannot even fathom why someone would want him in CF next year for 150 games. The guy has no glove, no arm, no speed, and showed absolutely no power. He did cut down on the Ks and did walk more than I thought he would, but the guy is dog ****. 5 home runs all year? Junk.

Pie will be starting in CF next year - bet the grandchildren on it.

[Rodanlee]

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I love how people are bringing lifetime OPS stats when he hasn't even played a full season.

Pie's first stint and first half @ AAA wasn't very good either, but he got better everyday. IMO he has looked better and better at the plate as the season went on. He was just getting yanked around by Lou which didn't make sense.. Lou didn't want to commit to him, because he wanted to play the vets.

And I totally disagree about not giving an OF spot to a 5 tool 22 year old who is a tremendous upgrade in CF. Contending teams usually don't have the luxury of bringing up a player of Pie's caliber.

The Braves brought up Andruw Jones during there WS run and his bat wasn't very good at the time. They let him play, because although he wasn't driving in runs he was taking runs off the board.

Jacque Jones is terrible. I cannot even fathom why someone would want him in CF next year for 150 games. The guy has no glove, no arm, no speed, and showed absolutely no power. He did cut down on the Ks and did walk more than I thought he would, but the guy is dog ****. 5 home runs all year? Junk.

Pie will be starting in CF next year - bet the grandchildren on it.

ahhaaaaa he finally showed up to his own thread

as for pie... look, i know he struggled a little bit when he came up and i didn't want him playing in the stretch run... but next year i think you give him the starting job even before spring training and tell him that the job is his no matter what... sure he will hit his ups and downs, pitchers have and will adjust to him... but he will adjust and learn how to hit big league pitching, he's not a liability in the outfield and would give us a nice left handed bat in the order with speed. Give him the job and let him keep it... that will boost his confidence and aid his maturation as a hitter.

as for jacque... you know i love jacque and hate murton, that is all (so i'd like to have jj in RF unless we have FA come in or stud OFer from minors)

[IlliniNRG]

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I love how people are bringing lifetime OPS stats when he hasn't even played a full season.

Pie's first stint and first half @ AAA wasn't very good either, but he got better everyday. IMO he has looked better and better at the plate as the season went on. He was just getting yanked around by Lou which didn't make sense.. Lou didn't want to commit to him, because he wanted to play the vets.

And I totally disagree about not giving an OF spot to a 5 tool 22 year old who is a tremendous upgrade in CF. Contending teams usually don't have the luxury of bringing up a player of Pie's caliber.

The Braves brought up Andruw Jones during there WS run and his bat wasn't very good at the time. They let him play, because although he wasn't driving in runs he was taking runs off the board.

Jacque Jones is terrible. I cannot even fathom why someone would want him in CF next year for 150 games. The guy has no glove, no arm, no speed, and showed absolutely no power. He did cut down on the Ks and did walk more than I thought he would, but the guy is dog ****. 5 home runs all year? Junk.

Pie will be starting in CF next year - bet the grandchildren on it.

What exactly is Pie's caliber? Below average? Far below average?

Matt Murton got 235 ABs this year as the 4th outfielder. I don't see why Pie can't get similar time, and then we'll see how he does.

Andruw Jones only had one season as bad as Pie at the plate, and he was only 19. Besides that, Jones is a 20/20 hindsight case - we know he made it. How about the dozens and dozens of Cubs prospects who did well at Iowa and didn't pan out? It happens, and it happens way more often than the rookies becoming stars.

Patterson was every bit the prospect Pie is supposed to be, and maybe more. There's no reason to think Pie is a sure thing, by any stretch. He's not. You could gift him the CF job, he could bat .215 again (this time in 500 ABs) and lose the division for you. A vet who hits .280 with 20 HRs, you know what you've got.

Throwing Pie out there in CF every day in 2008 is a stupid gamble, and one the Cubs don't have to take.

[Rodanlee]

[quote="IlliniNRG"][/quote]

I think you just made TreyZz angry...

[2poor]

How is it a stupid gamble? You put your prized prospect out there opening day, showing the confidence you have in him. He at the very least provides you solid defense in center while focusing on his hitting in a low-pressure situation. If this Cubs team taught us anything, its that you can make up ground over a long season.

I understand why Pie didn't settle in CF this year. Like I said before, Lou was putting him out there just to see if he'd "click," in which case he'd keep trotting him out there a la Soto. He didn't, so he was more comfortable trotting a vet out there given the implications of each game down the stretch.

It would be absolutely (Please Use More Appropriate Word) to plan on JJ being the every day CF when we have one of the best CF prospects in the game ready to prove himself. Pointing to his batting stats this year as if they're indicative of something, anything, just shows that you're completely unaware of what Pie brings to the table.

ps. did you watch any of the D-Backs series? Do you realize that the Cubs lost to a team full of Pie-esque young guys who as a team batted .247? Chris Young **** on us and all he does is hit a HR or strikeout. BUT, he's a young 5-tool CF prospect who Bob Melvin has the confidence in trotting out there nearly every day. He understands that the .BA will go up with time.

[IlliniNRG]

How is it a stupid gamble? You put your prized prospect out there opening day, showing the confidence you have in him. He at the very least provides you solid defense in center while focusing on his hitting in a low-pressure situation. If this Cubs team taught us anything, its that you can make up ground over a long season.

I understand why Pie didn't settle in CF this year. Like I said before, Lou was putting him out there just to see if he'd "click," in which case he'd keep trotting him out there a la Soto. He didn't, so he was more comfortable trotting a vet out there given the implications of each game down the stretch.

It would be absolutely (Please Use More Appropriate Word) to plan on JJ being the every day CF when we have one of the best CF prospects in the game ready to prove himself. Pointing to his batting stats this year as if they're indicative of something, anything, just shows that you're completely unaware of what Pie brings to the table.

ps. did you watch any of the D-Backs series? Do you realize that the Cubs lost to a team full of Pie-esque young guys who as a team batted .247? Chris Young **** on us and all he does is hit a HR or strikeout. BUT, he's a young 5-tool CF prospect who Bob Melvin has the confidence in trotting out there nearly every day. He understands that the .BA will go up with time.

Let me be clear about something: if it's between Jacque Jones and Pie on opening day, you tell Pie that the job is his, and you bring in Jones if Pie can't hit the ball out of the infield. My hope is that they bring someone in who's better than Jacque.

Pie's stats this year are absolutely indicative of "something, anything." It's not like he had 2 at-bats and struck out, he had 177. He did terribly. Not so-so, but terribly. If guys like Murton, Theriot, Fontenot, Soto etc. can come up in their first years and perform, and Pie is supposed to be a better prospect than all of them, why is it unrealistic to have some expectations?

I'm not saying trade the guy, I'm not saying don't play him at all. My ideal situation would be to bring in 1 or 2 good, everyday OFers, have Pie in there as the 4th OF and have him come in every game in the late innings where we would need a defensive replacement. Give him 200-250 ABs in this capacity and see how it goes.

It's unrealistic to think you have to give a guy the starting job and 600 ABs before you can tell what he can do at the plate.

And, the D'backs beat the Cubs because the Cubs couldn't hit. That is well established. Also, it was a 3-game series. Are we now supposed to emulate "The Diamondbacks model" because they beat the Cubs in an NLDS series?

[2poor]

He had 177 *spotty* ABs. Most of them came early in the year when Alfonso shifted over to LF. Beyond that, if you think starting a guy (or bringing him in for an AB or two) late in a game once every 5-7 games is giving a youngster a fair chance to excel, you're nuts, especially with Pie's track record.

The rest of the young guys had _periods_ where they hit well, it sure as hell wasn't sustained. Fontenot surged when he was first brought up but puttered out after the ASB. Similar with Theriot, he surged, won the job, still played solid, but he wasn't exactly lighting it up either. Same with Murton. Soto struggled in his first stint and had some big hits down the stretch, nothing more. Soto's success actually came when Lou realized he should hit him closer to the middle of the order (where he had been hitting and producing in AAA), and not at the bottom where the ABs you get are entirely different.

Pie's stats are indicative of what happens when you bounce a guy (who was excelling as an everyday player at every level) around/in-and-out of the lineup.

I'm not talking about "emulating" anything, I'm just pointing out that giving young guys the time and ABs to grow can do a lot of good.

[Posey H8er]

Felix's highest BA this year was at .288. This was during a hot streak where he went 12 for 30, and also when Fontenot came out strong.
Since then, Felix has appeared in 38 games in which he has had 1 AB or none at all (basically our cheerleader on the bench). This was also due to Jacque's hotness in July/September, and him controlling center.
All this inconsistency of playing time has to be a partial reason to his struggle at the plate.

You cannot doubt Felix is the fastest player we have on our roster and the best defensive liability in the outfield as well. He just needs to make more contact with the ball.

[IlliniNRG]

Felix's highest BA this year was at .288. This was during a hot streak where he went 12 for 30, and also when Fontenot came out strong.
Since then, Felix has appeared in 38 games in which he has had 1 AB or none at all

Pie was batting .288 on June 9th. He started 13 games in a row after that, and went 6 for 48. Ouch. After this month or so when he started almost every day, he was batting in the .220s. It's simply a myth that the lion's share of his ABs came inconsistently. They came in bunches at the beginning of the season, then slowed to a drip when he didn't perform.

Now, it's certainly possible that this was just a (bad) slump, and really he's a .300 hitter who would hit 30 HRs in a full season. Statistically, it's very, very, unlikely.

On a team that's supposed to contend, you cannot have offensive production that bad, especially from an outfield spot. It's that simple.

Pie makes the occasional spectacular play. He's unknown. The concept of a hot prospect is sexy. I get that. I've also seen dozens of these prospects come through the Cubs system and waste ABs before their career bottoms out. How many position players has our farm system developed in the past 20 years? Right. How many hot prospects have come up? Lots.

It's possible Pie would start from day one and be a completely different hitter than what he was in 2007, upping his OPS by 200 points. But I think you all are confusing hope with reason.

note: 2poor, read my post. I said Pie should get 200ish ABs, not just be a defensive replacement. Also, you say how Murton/Fontenot/Soto/Theriot struggled at points. That should tell you just how bad Pie was, considering all four of those guys put up considerably better numbers. Also, excluding Murton, they all did it at positions where you expect less offensively.