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Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II

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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#741 » by WuTang_CMB » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:23 pm

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One point that I didn’t make clear above but I will here: I made these big board adjustments before I got to see any of these prospects live.

So when I went to Temple on Thursday night to watch Taylor Hendricks and UCF take on the Owls, I had embraced putting him in the Top 10 in my rankings.

And let me tell you, he justified that and more with his performance.

Hendricks finished on the night with 16 points, seven rebounds, two steals, and a block to stuff the stat sheet. Taking only eight shots (which admittedly should be higher), Hendricks was a presence all over the floor in ways that go beyond just getting buckets.

As I discussed above with Whitmore, ground coverage is essential for a player like Hendricks. Ideally, he’ll be a power forward next to a true center unless an opposing team goes small leaving Hendricks to play as the lone big on the floor.

He has a great upper body and broad shoulders, but his base is fairly narrow, meaning I’m not sure he’ll fill out physically in a way where you’d want him playing as a center full-time.

Therefore, he’s serving as a weakside rotator and rim protector but also covering on swings and kick outs to the corners and on the wings. Hendricks is in a role where ideally he’s closing out or having to come to a stop in space and contain a driver. He can do both of those things really well, especially closing out.

On a few plays in particular where I thought there was no way he’d get the contest after having one foot in the paint on a skip pass, Hendricks darted to the corner and still managed to make the shot difficult for the Temple player because of his length and leaping ability.

There is no position on the floor where I’m afraid for the outcome in relation to Hendricks guarding them—be it in ball screens, in space, isolation, or around the basket. His weakest point, which again is unlikely to come into play too much in the NBA, is guarding real size in the post. Outside of that, I trust his feet, hips, and recovery ability to hold down the fort defensively. Hendricks rates in the 84th percentile on that end for a reason.

And offensively, he’s even more efficient rating in the 92nd percentile. Catch-and-shoot, face-and-shoot, easy rim finishes in transition: Hendricks’s off-ball fit within an offense is like a glove. Low-usage, high-efficiency players with size are the perfect complements to stars in the NBA, meaning that Hendricks has an anchored floor in the league.

The main reason why he hasn’t rated higher on my board up to this point, or even past where I have him at 10, is that it will require quite a bit of work for him to break his current ceiling and emerge as a second option on a good-to-great team. Hendricks has the poorest handle of any prospect I’m evaluating inside the lottery or close enough to that range, and he hasn’t shown the self-creation ability to assert himself as someone who can consistently go get his own offense.

Without that ability to break down defenders on a possession-by-possession basis, his role is capped as a play finisher albeit one of the best in this class. Not only that, but it also limits how a team may want to utilize him within an offense also cutting down on plays we may see him get more involved as a playmaker.

If he can improve his dribbling and prove he’s a threat to turn, face, and drive or pull up, then he becomes a far more interesting play closer to a ranking of #5 than #10. For now, I will remain cautiously optimistic that he can develop into a player of that ilk and bet on the more conservative projection of his career.


This kid is going to blow up in workouts IMO. The shot is there and he moves well for his size. That ball handling will come and will help his one on one creation. Hard to find his size to skill ratio in the draft
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Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#742 » by Smalltown » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:25 pm

ItsDanger wrote:I still take him


I honestly don't see a downside to taking Edey with a mid to late 2nd. Worst case he's a G League Star/MVP and he helps create a winning environment with the 905 which helps other players develop. Best case he becomes a serviceable rotation big who can bump with the big guys and not lose you the minutes he plays. I don't really see a scenario where drafting a hometown player of his stature becomes a negative.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#743 » by God Squad » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:30 pm

Taylor Hendricks.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#744 » by WuTang_CMB » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:32 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:Max Lewis has fallen off and his defense isn't all that great. I'm taking Hendricks over him every day of the week


They are two different players who will operate in different areas of the floor in the NBA. As it stands this team has no spot for Hendricks as he operates in a lot of the areas Barnes does especially inside. The Raptors need players who can operate well from the top of the arc and guard opponents' players who operate from the same area while on defense.


I dont care for fit. Team needs talent and if Hendricks is BPA, you take him.

Masai has a lot of work to do in the off-season anyways with Fred / Trent / OG status up in the air.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#745 » by Dalek » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:37 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:Maxwell Lewis has a truly multidimensional offensive game which neither JHS or Howard come close to demonstrating. Between the three and considering 3 point shooting is one of the areas young players can make real and significant improvements in quickly, Lewis is clearly the superior prospect. Add his coach saying that he's never had a player improve so quickly as much as he did and you're looking at a potentially special NBA player.

His length helps make his release point difficult to contest and his array of midrange moves and shots bode well for him and his 2ptfg efficiency means that if he can improve his 3 point shooting you are looking at a guard who can score it at a 48%+ fg rate on volume in the league which is elite offensive production from a guard.

His 3 point shot does look like it has a hitch in it but if a team thinks they can correct it the rest is pretty special in terms of offense.


He looks like a good player, but man Pepperdine is a bad team - 9-22 which I guess could be more about who surrounds Lewis. He did play well against the elite teams: Gonzaga scoring over 20 PPG and 40% from three, and Santa Clara 17 PPG and 36% from three. His red flag to me is the high turnover rate: 2.8 ast/3.3 TO is a negative ratio, and he was all pretty bad from freshman year.

Lewis 2.8 ast/3.3 - 35% from three (46 made threes) - 21 dunks / 35 FTR
Hood-Schifino 3.6 ast/2.8to - 36% from three (33 made threes) - 3 dunks / 20 FTR
Howard 2 ast/1to - 37% from three (76 made threes) - 6 dunks / 23 FTR

Lewis seems like the far superior athlete who wants to attack the rim and draw fouls, but some concerns on whether he needs to slow down with the ball. Toronto is a very conservative team that expects a steady, low turnover guy if they expect to play. JHS is more of a mid-range guy but I worry about his athleticism - it feels like he will struggle with speed. Howard is more of a perimeter-type and hasn't shown the attack mentality to get to the line like a NBA player.

All of them worry me about defense since that has always been a huge focus for Toronto. Lewis looks super aggressive but averaging 2.8 fouls seems high for a guard.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#746 » by grant101 » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:47 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:Max Lewis has fallen off and his defense isn't all that great. I'm taking Hendricks over him every day of the week


They are two different players who will operate in different areas of the floor in the NBA. As it stands this team has no spot for Hendricks as he operates in a lot of the areas Barnes does especially inside. The Raptors need players who can operate well from the top of the arc and guard opponents' players who operate from the same area while on defense.


I dont care for fit. Team needs talent and if Hendricks is BPA, you take him.

Masai has a lot of work to do in the off-season anyways with Fred / Trent / OG status up in the air.


This is the right take. We'll be high enough in the draft that whoever we take shouldn't be seen as a gap-filler, rather an integral part of our core for the next several years (i.e. after the Siakam/FVV era). As long as they're good enough to get some minutes so their development doesn't stall, we shouldn't worry too much about fit.
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Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#747 » by ItsDanger » Mon Mar 6, 2023 7:51 pm

Smalltown wrote:
ItsDanger wrote:I still take him


I honestly don't see a downside to taking Edey with a mid to late 2nd. Worst case he's a G League Star/MVP and he helps create a winning environment with the 905 which helps other players develop. Best case he becomes a serviceable rotation big who can bump with the big guys and not lose you the minutes he plays. I don't really see a scenario where drafting a hometown player of his stature becomes a negative.

Bascially 1 of a kind in this draft and over a number of drafts. Scarcity has huge value.
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Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#748 » by Dalek » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:03 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:
Dalek wrote:Colby Jones is quickly becoming my favorite safe bet as a role player. He kind of reminds me of Desmond Bane in a way where he is pretty much popping off the page in almost every stat but only is held back by being 21 at the draft and not a superior athlete:

7 BPM
61 TS%
33 FTR
23 AST%
2.3 STL%
63 At-the-rim %
40 3P%

Plays in the Big East which can be a grinding tough slog but shows he can play with good competition. His above college numbers compare well with Derrick White, Sam Merrill, and James Harden who were all bigger sized combos.

Toronto could like Jones because they love to see size, and steady improvement and he made a big improvement this year in shooting and playmaking (previous year he had a 29 3P%). At 6'6 he can play a bit of point while giving up little on the defensive end. Basically he is a nice fit with a Scottie because he can shoot and handle the ball some and defend.

Scoring in the halfcourt and in close:
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Versatile offense:
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One of my favourites as a big, playmaking combo guard that can shoot. He's built strong like a Bane. He's a good defender. I agree he's a great fit for this club. Not as athletic but meh. Also can't find his wingspan anywhere. Still if we want a player with a higher floor I would take him, he will contribute right away.


We are already dropping to 14 in draft order and teams like the Clippers and Hawks could be slipping in the standings. There is a chance the Lakers pass Toronto, but they look improved even without LBJ. I'd guess we end up picking 16 which opens Toronto to third tier types.

The third tier to me is all about high floor types: Colby Jones, Kris Murray, Filipowski or one of my darkhorse guys: Terrence Shannon Jr. or Tristan Vukčević.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#749 » by REJECTEDBYCLARK » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:07 pm

grant101 wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
They are two different players who will operate in different areas of the floor in the NBA. As it stands this team has no spot for Hendricks as he operates in a lot of the areas Barnes does especially inside. The Raptors need players who can operate well from the top of the arc and guard opponents' players who operate from the same area while on defense.


I dont care for fit. Team needs talent and if Hendricks is BPA, you take him.

Masai has a lot of work to do in the off-season anyways with Fred / Trent / OG status up in the air.


This is the right take. We'll be high enough in the draft that whoever we take shouldn't be seen as a gap-filler, rather an integral part of our core for the next several years (i.e. after the Siakam/FVV era). As long as they're good enough to get some minutes so their development doesn't stall, we shouldn't worry too much about fit.


But you *are* worrying about fit... you're assuming the organization will part with Siakam.

I have said it before, if the organization trades both Siakam and Anunoby then I will consider Hendricks. I guess if Barnes moves into a more traditional PF role then Hendricks can play SF, the point was that he is not a guy you want operating at the top of the arc in the NBA due to his average handles, dribble penetration and inability to stick with quicker guards on defense on an island.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#750 » by grant101 » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:13 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
grant101 wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
I dont care for fit. Team needs talent and if Hendricks is BPA, you take him.

Masai has a lot of work to do in the off-season anyways with Fred / Trent / OG status up in the air.


This is the right take. We'll be high enough in the draft that whoever we take shouldn't be seen as a gap-filler, rather an integral part of our core for the next several years (i.e. after the Siakam/FVV era). As long as they're good enough to get some minutes so their development doesn't stall, we shouldn't worry too much about fit.


But you *are* worrying about fit... you're assuming the organization will part with Siakam.

I have said it before, if the organization trades both Siakam and Anunoby then I will consider Hendricks. I guess if Barnes moves into a more traditional PF role then Hendricks can play SF, the point was that he is not a guy you want operating at the top of the arc in the NBA due to his average handles, dribble penetration and inability to stick with quicker guards on defense on an island.


Talent being equal, I agree that a guard makes more sense on our team. But if the FO feels Hendricks has a ton of untapped potential, I just don't think you worry about it. You give him Thad's minutes and let him work on his game and/or earn more.

When I was talking about "after pascal's era" I was just referring to the fact that, unless we whiff on the pick entirely, there's a very good chance that the player will be with our team for the next 7 years at least. Well after Siakam's prime.
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Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#751 » by Smalltown » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:13 pm

ItsDanger wrote:Bascially 1 of a kind in this draft and over a number of drafts. Scarcity has huge value.


100%. We're not talking about a first round pick either. I can understand not wanting to take that risk. But a second?

David Johnson, Jalen Harris, Dewan Hernandez and so on. I don't see how Edey isn't worth a swing.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#752 » by Dalek » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:16 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:And for the argument I just made it also is the reason why I like Keyontae Johnson. He has NBA player written all over him. He scoring ability is phenomenal and it doesn't look like he's going to slow down any time soon even against NBA players.


I think he was on everyone's draft radar prior to the heart issue. I just cannot see any NBA team signing a guy who collapsed on a court the way he did. I don't know if you remember Reggie Lewis, but I don't think any team would want a situation where a player potentially dies in a game. More recently, Isaiah Austin from Baylor had a shot at the the NBA but teams were scared off by his Marfan Syndrome. He still plays basketball but in lower leagues around the world.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#753 » by REJECTEDBYCLARK » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:23 pm

Ultimately I view Hendricks' ceiling as a Tobias Harris with weaker handles but better defensively (he has a lot of lapses but looks like it can be shored up and he is committed to that end) so that is a pretty damn good player.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#754 » by REJECTEDBYCLARK » Mon Mar 6, 2023 8:30 pm

Dalek wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:And for the argument I just made it also is the reason why I like Keyontae Johnson. He has NBA player written all over him. He scoring ability is phenomenal and it doesn't look like he's going to slow down any time soon even against NBA players.


I think he was on everyone's draft radar prior to the heart issue. I just cannot see any NBA team signing a guy who collapsed on a court the way he did. I don't know if you remember Reggie Lewis, but I don't think any team would want a situation where a player potentially dies in a game. More recently, Isaiah Austin from Baylor had a shot at the the NBA but teams were scared off by his Marfan Syndrome. He still plays basketball but in lower leagues around the world.


I don't think heart inflammation is a long term issue for most individuals especially when they said his could have been related to covid-19. I think it's an acute thing. If that's the case then he should be fully medically cleared and seems to be doing fine. He has a lot of basketball talent the only concern with him being that he looks more like 6ft4.5 than 6ft6. Visually he almost looks like a younger PJ Tucker even though their games are very different.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#755 » by Rapsfan07 » Mon Mar 6, 2023 9:16 pm

Dalek wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:Maxwell Lewis has a truly multidimensional offensive game which neither JHS or Howard come close to demonstrating. Between the three and considering 3 point shooting is one of the areas young players can make real and significant improvements in quickly, Lewis is clearly the superior prospect. Add his coach saying that he's never had a player improve so quickly as much as he did and you're looking at a potentially special NBA player.

His length helps make his release point difficult to contest and his array of midrange moves and shots bode well for him and his 2ptfg efficiency means that if he can improve his 3 point shooting you are looking at a guard who can score it at a 48%+ fg rate on volume in the league which is elite offensive production from a guard.

His 3 point shot does look like it has a hitch in it but if a team thinks they can correct it the rest is pretty special in terms of offense.


He looks like a good player, but man Pepperdine is a bad team - 9-22 which I guess could be more about who surrounds Lewis. He did play well against the elite teams: Gonzaga scoring over 20 PPG and 40% from three, and Santa Clara 17 PPG and 36% from three. His red flag to me is the high turnover rate: 2.8 ast/3.3 TO is a negative ratio, and he was all pretty bad from freshman year.

Lewis 2.8 ast/3.3 - 35% from three (46 made threes) - 21 dunks / 35 FTR
Hood-Schifino 3.6 ast/2.8to - 36% from three (33 made threes) - 3 dunks / 20 FTR
Howard 2 ast/1to - 37% from three (76 made threes) - 6 dunks / 23 FTR

Lewis seems like the far superior athlete who wants to attack the rim and draw fouls, but some concerns on whether he needs to slow down with the ball. Toronto is a very conservative team that expects a steady, low turnover guy if they expect to play. JHS is more of a mid-range guy but I worry about his athleticism - it feels like he will struggle with speed. Howard is more of a perimeter-type and hasn't shown the attack mentality to get to the line like a NBA player.

All of them worry me about defense since that has always been a huge focus for Toronto. Lewis looks super aggressive but averaging 2.8 fouls seems high for a guard.


I would still take Lewis over both of these guys.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#756 » by Dalek » Mon Mar 6, 2023 9:42 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
Dalek wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:And for the argument I just made it also is the reason why I like Keyontae Johnson. He has NBA player written all over him. He scoring ability is phenomenal and it doesn't look like he's going to slow down any time soon even against NBA players.


I think he was on everyone's draft radar prior to the heart issue. I just cannot see any NBA team signing a guy who collapsed on a court the way he did. I don't know if you remember Reggie Lewis, but I don't think any team would want a situation where a player potentially dies in a game. More recently, Isaiah Austin from Baylor had a shot at the the NBA but teams were scared off by his Marfan Syndrome. He still plays basketball but in lower leagues around the world.


I don't think heart inflammation is a long term issue for most individuals especially when they said his could have been related to covid-19. I think it's an acute thing. If that's the case then he should be fully medically cleared and seems to be doing fine. He has a lot of basketball talent the only concern with him being that he looks more like 6ft4.5 than 6ft6. Visually he almost looks like a younger PJ Tucker even though their games are very different.


If the health checks out he can make the NBA. Loads of talent and he has a good strong frame, although like you said it will be interesting what he measures out to. I always thought he was 6'5.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#757 » by Dalek » Mon Mar 6, 2023 9:46 pm

Rapsfan07 wrote:
Dalek wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:Maxwell Lewis has a truly multidimensional offensive game which neither JHS or Howard come close to demonstrating. Between the three and considering 3 point shooting is one of the areas young players can make real and significant improvements in quickly, Lewis is clearly the superior prospect. Add his coach saying that he's never had a player improve so quickly as much as he did and you're looking at a potentially special NBA player.

His length helps make his release point difficult to contest and his array of midrange moves and shots bode well for him and his 2ptfg efficiency means that if he can improve his 3 point shooting you are looking at a guard who can score it at a 48%+ fg rate on volume in the league which is elite offensive production from a guard.

His 3 point shot does look like it has a hitch in it but if a team thinks they can correct it the rest is pretty special in terms of offense.


He looks like a good player, but man Pepperdine is a bad team - 9-22 which I guess could be more about who surrounds Lewis. He did play well against the elite teams: Gonzaga scoring over 20 PPG and 40% from three, and Santa Clara 17 PPG and 36% from three. His red flag to me is the high turnover rate: 2.8 ast/3.3 TO is a negative ratio, and he was all pretty bad from freshman year.

Lewis 2.8 ast/3.3 - 35% from three (46 made threes) - 21 dunks / 35 FTR
Hood-Schifino 3.6 ast/2.8to - 36% from three (33 made threes) - 3 dunks / 20 FTR
Howard 2 ast/1to - 37% from three (76 made threes) - 6 dunks / 23 FTR

Lewis seems like the far superior athlete who wants to attack the rim and draw fouls, but some concerns on whether he needs to slow down with the ball. Toronto is a very conservative team that expects a steady, low turnover guy if they expect to play. JHS is more of a mid-range guy but I worry about his athleticism - it feels like he will struggle with speed. Howard is more of a perimeter-type and hasn't shown the attack mentality to get to the line like a NBA player.

All of them worry me about defense since that has always been a huge focus for Toronto. Lewis looks super aggressive but averaging 2.8 fouls seems high for a guard.


I would still take Lewis over both of these guys.


Lewis looks really good. The hard part for any college guy is role adjustment at the NBA level. He won't be the guy on a NBA team, so can he be a roleplayer who can: play off-ball? guard his position? move the ball without turnovers? He does look like a NBA level athlete the way he moves and his frame looks like he can add more weight.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#758 » by Psubs » Mon Mar 6, 2023 9:49 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:Ultimately I view Hendricks' ceiling as a Tobias Harris with weaker handles but better defensively (he has a lot of lapses but looks like it can be shored up and he is committed to that end) so that is a pretty damn good player.


Why weaker handles? It's not like Tobias was that great a ball-handler when got to the league; A/T = 0.71. Tobias shot 30% from 3 at T but at least shot FT's at 75% and has shot 37% from NBA 3 in his career! :o

Hendricks is shooting 79.6% FT so he might be able to maintain shooting near 40% from NBA 3, with being 6'9 and attempting 4.6 per game at UCF.
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Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#759 » by Dalek » Mon Mar 6, 2023 9:56 pm

Bufkin is so fun to watch this year. I see NBA potential like Simons, Maxey, Poole for him. I never know if that is compatible with Toronto given the way we draft and sign guys, but don't other people see him in a similar role to the players mentioned after watching this video?

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One aspect I notice is how he comfortable turning over his right shoulder or shooting from the right side despite being a lefty. It just confuses defenses who are used to right handed shooting guys.

I swear being a lefty guard in the NBA gives a sneaky advantage (look at the amazing careers or Manu and Harden). Modern times, younger guards like Brunson and Fox are also lefties.
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Re: Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II 

Post#760 » by Psubs » Mon Mar 6, 2023 9:57 pm

All I want is at least 2 of Cason, Hendricks, Cissoko. Outside of the top 5, I want multi-dimensional players that can shoot the 3.
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