NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 3)

[Kurtz]

the irony lies in that in the 3 years he deserved it, his naysayers were claiming he doesn't deserve it because of lack of deep playoff success

If say, he'll get that playoff success this summer - their arguments will be invalidated but that's precisely when he'll stop playing like an MVP and turn to veteran coasting mode

that's the irony

Ok, that never really happened though. The past 2 years the award came down to Jokic vs Embiid, and neither guy has had playoff success, so how could that argument even be possible the last two years?

This is the first year this argument is being made, and it's made only because Jokic is going for a 3-peat. No player in NBA history has ever 3 peated as an MVP without a ring. This is no different from when Giannis had no real chance to get his 3rd MVP in a row because he kept getting bounced early. This is a standard that has always stood in place and Jokic would be a significant break from precedent if he were to win his 3rd.

There is no irony, it's straight up logical, precedent-based reasoning.

Moses Malone?

Malone never won 3 in a row.

[Kurtz]

the irony lies in that in the 3 years he deserved it, his naysayers were claiming he doesn't deserve it because of lack of deep playoff success

If say, he'll get that playoff success this summer - their arguments will be invalidated but that's precisely when he'll stop playing like an MVP and turn to veteran coasting mode

that's the irony

Ok, that never really happened though. The past 2 years the award came down to Jokic vs Embiid, and neither guy has had playoff success, so how could that argument even be possible the last two years?

This is the first year this argument is being made, and it's made only because Jokic is going for a 3-peat. No player in NBA history has ever 3 peated as an MVP without a ring. This is no different from when Giannis had no real chance to get his 3rd MVP in a row because he kept getting bounced early. This is a standard that has always stood in place and Jokic would be a significant break from precedent if he were to win his 3rd.

There is no irony, it's straight up logical, precedent-based reasoning.

you are factually wrong
that same argument was made regarding his 2-peat as well - meaning: he shouldn't win 2 times MVP if he can't lead his team to the finals etc

look at last year's MVP race thread and you'll see it brought up a bunch

as for coming down to Jokic vs. Embiid - I didn't say it made sense or has merit, was only pointing out the argument

I was in those threads arguing vehemently that Joker deserved to win his first and second MVPs, and I don't recall that argument being made against him, because again, it wouldn't make much sense in a debate on him vs Embiid. If someone did bring it up at some point it was rather inconsequential, and I wouldn't fixate on it if I were you.

[Exp0sed]

you are factually wrong
that same argument was made regarding his 2-peat as well - meaning: he shouldn't win 2 times MVP if he can't lead his team to the finals etc

look at last year's MVP race thread and you'll see it brought up a bunch

as for coming down to Jokic vs. Embiid - I didn't say it made sense or has merit, was only pointing out the argument

I was in those threads arguing vehemently that Joker deserved to win his first and second MVPs, and I don't recall that argument being made against him, because again, it wouldn't make much sense in a debate on him vs Embiid. If someone did bring it up at some point it was rather inconsequential, and I wouldn't fixate on it if I were you.

it would "make sense" (convoluted sense but still) because it would have been Embiid's first and Jokic's 2-peat
and according to those ppl \ arguments, the requirement for a repeat are substantially higher

again i'm not saying it's my opinion (it's not) but it has been said during that season as well and that was it's reasoning

[Kurtz]

you are factually wrong
that same argument was made regarding his 2-peat as well - meaning: he shouldn't win 2 times MVP if he can't lead his team to the finals etc

look at last year's MVP race thread and you'll see it brought up a bunch

as for coming down to Jokic vs. Embiid - I didn't say it made sense or has merit, was only pointing out the argument

I was in those threads arguing vehemently that Joker deserved to win his first and second MVPs, and I don't recall that argument being made against him, because again, it wouldn't make much sense in a debate on him vs Embiid. If someone did bring it up at some point it was rather inconsequential, and I wouldn't fixate on it if I were you.

it would "make sense" (convoluted sense but still) because it would have been Embiid's first and Jokic's 2-peat
and according to those ppl \ arguments, the requirement for a repeat are substantially higher

again i'm not saying it's my opinion (it's not) but it has been said during that season as well and that was it's reasoning

But again, that wouldn't make any sense, considering lots of guys won back to back mvps without playoff success. Giannis did it recently. Nash, Lebron, etc. So whoever that person was who was arguing it (if there was such a person) would have been clearly wrong and not worth focusing on.

[Exp0sed]

fwiw, those arguments don't make sense for a 3rd MVP either

first of all, it's a regular season award
and secondly, it's not like it never happened before because of some rule - this particaular circumstenece never presented itself

the same ppl arguing that it hasn't happened and thus shouldn't or can't happen, are not only wrong but they also fail to realize that circumstence and context are important

let me put it this way:
it's not like there's ever been a player who won two MVP's, then the following season had 1.) more games played than his competitors for the award 2.) better stats 3.) better advanced stats 4.) a better team record (atm only Giannis has a better record but only half a game and with a better cast and coach) - but said player didn't get his 3rd MVP because he never won a 'chip

get what i'm saying?

it's not like there's a precedent for any of this..

ofc it's never happened before, so what?
it's happening now

[Exp0sed]

But again, that wouldn't make any sense, considering lots of guys won back to back mvps without playoff success. Giannis did it recently. Nash, Lebron, etc. So whoever that person was who was arguing it (if there was such a person) would have been clearly wrong and not worth focusing on.

idk if you've noticed but alot of the talk around Jokc these past couple of season revolved around those posters who are clearly wrong

perhaps even trolling..
but as for not worth focusing on, if it were that easy - trolling would be useless
sadly we are emtotional irrational beings

[Mickey8]

the irony is that if Jokic achieves post-season success, that would probably mean the end of his MVP's because he will go full coasting mode in the rs, he wouldn't take games off probably but he will play exactly like he did yesterday, in 3rd gear

which would probably be enough for the Nuggets to get enough wins for HCA in the 1st rd etc.

and some younger, hungrier player that would need to carry his team more every night..Luka, SGA, Hali etc. would make the jump or Giannis \ Tatum whomever

for the crowd who thinks Jokic didn't deserve these MVPs because of his lack of playoff success, that would be the real irony

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game while also largely resting on defense, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award. And those two guys clearly want it bad btw, playing through injuries this year.

Jokic has been playing through a wrist injury all year so your point is moot.

And if Jokic coasts to 25/12/10 in future seasons he's absolutely going to keep racking up MVPs as the most dominant and best player in the league.

Please stop with BS, you are sounding like the Sixer's fans who always bring some ghost injuries for Embiid after he perform bad in the play off's . There is nothing wrong with Jokic except him being the headcase who wont use his skills to the fullest . That's on the head coach as well for tolerating Jokic's crap on the court.

[Kurtz]

fwiw, those arguments don't make sense for a 3rd MVP either

first of all, it's a regular season award
and secondly, it's not like it never happened before because of some rule - this particaular circumstenece never presented itself

the same ppl arguing that it hasn't happened and thus shouldn't or can't happen, are not only wrong but they also fail to realize that circumstence and context are important

let me put it this way:
it's not like there's ever been a player who won two MVP's, then the following season had 1.) more games played than his competitors for the award 2.) better stats 3.) better advanced stats 4.) a better team record (atm only Giannis has a better record but only half a game and with a better cast and coach) - but said player didn't get his 3rd MVP because he never won a 'chip

get what i'm saying?

it's not like there's a precedent for any of this..

ofc it's never happened before, so what?
it's happening now

Wait, what? You don't think that Jordan or Lebron for example had a stretch where they were clearly the best players in the league for 3 years in a row? Like, by a significantly larger margin than Joker over Giannis/Embiid?

[Mickey8]

Its like Jokic trying on purpose to lower down his scoring average by not taking the shots . Since he became number one player for Denver , every season before he won those two MVP titles , he always had periods when he refused to take the shots, usually early in the season, few weeks then he picks up his aggressiveness . This season have been abysmal from the start , tonight games was like about 20 other crappy games he had this season, where he wasn't dominant at all but he still managed to put up decent numbers. Its shame that he's not showcasing his talent like he did in the past two regular seasons,when he puts up everything together he's one of the top players who's games are the most enjoyable to watch. I know this season he has more help, healthier team but that's not the reason for him to take 2,3, shots in one half of the game . His averages should be at least 5 shots per quarter. He's still the most talented scorer on the team . You can place him in any situation, post ups, pick and roll and pop , driving the basketball , I mean everything. We barely see him taking jump shots this season and he has one of the best mid range games in the league. He had some games this season when he reminds people what he can do but they are fewer and fewer this season. I have been saying from the start of the season that he's not playing like the MVP candidate. He's still very important player for Denver , their best player but not the MVP of the league this season. In order for Denver to have any kind of success in the play off's he will have to raise the level of aggressiveness on the offense, he always does that but we will see how it goes in these upcoming play off's.

For whatever reason Jokic gets blasted by ignorant media people like Perkins and Nick Wright and all the guy does is help his team win. Last year he carried that team to 48 wins. This year he got Porter Jr. and Murray back so his shot attempts are down a little but his contributions in rebounding and passing are still there. Denver has been the best team in the west all year and outside of Giannis, i dont see any other player who deserves the mvp over Jokic.

That's still not excuse for him to take just a few shots in the game, especially when the team is struggling offensively, teammates taking all kind of bad shot attempts . He proved this season too that he can have the high scoring games and facilitate for his teammates. When he put all together it is the joy to watching him play . I don't want to see him just setting the picks and running given goes all game long he's much better than that. Low scoring version of Jokic really sucks, its not interesting at all at least not for me.

[Exp0sed]

fwiw, those arguments don't make sense for a 3rd MVP either

Wait, what? You don't think that Jordan or Lebron for example had a stretch where they were clearly the best players in the league for 3 years in a row? Like, by a significantly larger margin than Joker over Giannis/Embiid?

that's not what I said, come on now buddy

i spoke about a particular set of circumstences

Jordan didn't win a couple early (the ones he lost to Magic) beause the Bulls were either had a losing record (86') or were 10 games behind the Lakers later in his career

yes, the Barkley MVP might have had alot to do with voter fatigue, no doubt

there's a difference between being the best player in the game and being an MVP

both LBJ and Jordan had a long stretch where they were unequivocally the best player in the league
but that's not to say they had a very solid MVp case for every single year of that stretch - they didn't

don't conflate "best" with MVP

and tbh, looking back on the 92-93' MVP, I would say that it looks even weirder and funnier now that it did then
meaning, if the Jokic haters want to use that precedent to argue against his 3-peat I would argue to that, that it's great that the times have changed

I doubt Barkley would have gotten that MVP with today's voters and imo - that's a good thing

edit: just read that Giannis and Jrue missing the Magic game tonight, that probably means after tonight the Nuggets will be tied for 1st overall with the Bucks

is there a season where a two time MVP led his team to 1st in impressive fashion and didn't win MVP?
that's what i mean by a particular set of circumectence

[HotRocks34]

I think tonight was the 7th or 8th game this year where Jokic was 1 assist shy of a triple double.

Nuggets beat Raptors in Denver.

He actually didn't play well at all.

The Raps are my home team, so I saw the game. Murray was Denvers' best player not Jokic. This is why stats can be so deceiving, using them as a sole metric for how a player played is myopic. You look at his statline at it looks like he quietly dominated, but he ran into a championship coach who completely took him out the game. The Raps were blowing up his dribble hand offs, reading his back door passes and attacking him on defense. It was Murrays' individual brilliance that edged them to the win(along with Scott Fosters' late game shenanigans).

I was trying to give Jokics' defense the benefit of the doubt since his fans say he's decent but I just don't see it. Atrocious perimeter D, and can't protect the rim. Poeltl was scoring on him at will

This was not one of Jokic's better outings of the season.

That said, it's good to see Murray getting it done. That hasn't been the case at times this year.

[Exp0sed]

[/b]

Please stop with BS, you are sounding like the Sixer's fans who always bring some ghost injuries for Embiid after he perform bad in the play off's . There is nothing wrong with Jokic except him being the headcase who wont use his skills to the fullest . That's on the head coach as well for tolerating Jokic's crap on the court.

fwiw, Jokic has been suffering all season from that wrist injury he suffered at a preseason game vs. OKC, saying nothing is wrong is a bit disgingenous

but by all reports it's a minor injury, nothing that a 1000 NBA players haven't played very well successfully with in the past

https://basketnews.com/news-183810-nikola-jokic-expected-to-return-soon-despite-wrist-injury.html

[Kurtz]

fwiw, those arguments don't make sense for a 3rd MVP either

Wait, what? You don't think that Jordan or Lebron for example had a stretch where they were clearly the best players in the league for 3 years in a row? Like, by a significantly larger margin than Joker over Giannis/Embiid?

that's not what I said, come on now buddy

i spoke about a particular set of circumstences

Jordan didn't win a couple early (the ones he lost to Magic) beause the Bulls were either had a losing record (86') or were 10 games behind the Lakers later in his career

yes, the Barkley MVP might have had alot to do with voter fatigue, no doubt

there's a difference between being the best player in the game and being an MVP

both LBJ and Jordan had a long stretch where they were unequivocally the best player in the league
but that's not to say they had a very solid MVp case for every single year of that stretch - they didn't

don't conflate "best" with MVP

and tbh, looking back on the 92-93' MVP, I would say that it looks even weirder and funnier now that it did then
meaning, if the Jokic haters want to use that precedent to argue against his 3-peat I would argue to that, that it's great that the times have changed

I doubt Barkley would have gotten that MVP with today's voters and imo - that's a good thing

edit: just read that Giannis and Jrue missing the Magic game tonight, that probably means after tonight the Nuggets will be tied for 1st overall with the Bucks

is there a season where a two time MVP led his team to 1st in impressive fashion and didn't win MVP?
that's what i mean by a particular set of circumectence

Right, and we know for a fact that objectively speaking, Jordan should have easily won over Barkley and Lebron over Rose. But the voters were reticent to give them 3 in a row.

That's the precedent I'm talking about when discussing the possibility of Joker getting 3 in a row. Now obviously this isn't the court of law and so if voters wish to dismiss all precedent, they are completely entitled to do so.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Joker's remaining two home games against Philly and the Bucks - if he gets smacked around by Embiid again, that's not going to be a good look. I also think that when he loses the two games in Phoenix as Malone realizes to his dismay that he won't be able to get away with Joker's drop defense against the new Suns...that too will hurt his chances.

[LessEyeTest]

The best comment I saw on Reddit today after the Redick v. Perkins fiasco.

Jokic is so good out there on the court they're calling it racist what he's doing. (Response to Perkins claiming Jokic is the recipient of biases from white media members).

Jokic is literally having a top 5 all-time GOAT offensive 3 year peak, ever. People need to accept it. He's Bill Walton x 10.

[HotRocks34]

Let's check in on our handy, 100% accurate (in the past) 3-stat metric for MVP's:


31 PER
.300 WS48
11 BPM

Here are those seasons, in chronological order, along with how the player fared in the MVP voting.


1988 Jordan.................31.7 PER..........308 WS48............12.96 BPM............................Won MVP
1991 Jordan.................31.6 PER..........321 WS48............12.01 BPM............................Won MVP
2009 LeBron.................31.7 PER..........318 WS48............13.24 BPM............................Won MVP
2013 LeBron.................31.6 PER..........322 WS48............11.71 BPM............................Won MVP
2016 Curry...................31.5 PER..........318 WS48............11.94 BPM............................Won MVP
2021 Jokic...................31.3 PER..........301 WS48............11.68 BPM............................Won MVP
2023 Jokic* (65 games)....31.7 PER..........318 WS48............13.25 BPM............................MVP favorite


Giannis 2023* ------------> 28.5 PER..........202 WS48............08.1 BPM
Embiid 2023* -------------> 30.4 PER..........243 WS48............08.2 BPM

[HotRocks34]

Here are the players in NBA history who have had a 31 PER season:

Jordan..........4 seasons
Wilt.............3 seasons
LeBron..........3 seasons
Giannis..........2 seasons
Jokic.............2 seasons (working on 3rd)
Curry............1 season
Embiid..........1 season (working on 2nd?)


So if Jokic gets his third 31 PER season this year, the only player in NBA history who would have more such seasons would be MJ.

That's crazy.

[Exp0sed]

Right, and we know for a fact that objectively speaking, Jordan should have easily won over Barkley and Lebron over Rose. But the voters were reticent to give them 3 in a row.

That's the precedent I'm talking about when discussing the possibility of Joker getting 3 in a row. Now obviously this isn't the court of law and so if voters wish to dismiss all precedent, they are completely entitled to do so.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Joker's remaining two home games against Philly and the Bucks - if he gets smacked around by Embiid again, that's not going to be a good look. I also think that when he loses the two games in Phoenix as Malone realizes to his dismay that he won't be able to get away with Joker's drop defense against the new Suns...that too will hurt his chances.

Agree about Jordan \ Barkley but not about Rose

LBJ didn't lose out because of voter fatigue
while he was the best player in the league, he formed a super team (which was a big deal at the time) and despite all big 3 playing basically all the games - the Heat didn't even have the best record in the league, only the 3rd best while Rose carried his Bulls to 62 wins and the 1st seed with Deng and Ronnie Brewer

Noah and Boozer missed half of the season

he deserved that MVP and it wasn't about Voter's fatigue

those same voters had no issues giving him another MVP straight away (despite losing in embrassing fashion to Dirk) and then another MVP back to-back. that is - when he deserved it he got it, voter fatigue or not

as for this season, the head to head matchup maybe sexy for NT but it doesn't have any real bearing unless everything else is equal (which isn't the case)

p.s - Denver doesn't do drop coverage anymore

[Wolfgang630]

Giannis is missing another game today. Voters do look at missed games. How many games will Giannis miss now?

[HotRocks34]

Giannis is missing another game today. Voters do look at is missed games. How many games will Giannis miss now?

This will be #13 for Giannis, I believe.


Games missed so far (before tonight)

Jokic..........8
Giannis.......12
Embiid........13

[psimanic1]

its funny how people, instead of arguing with reasons why Giannis/Embiid/anyone SHOULD win MVP, are arguing why Jokic shouldnt...