Kendrick Perkins controversial comments on Jokic. Update: JJ Redick goes off on Perk about racism

[Peregrine01]

I know not a lot of people want to hear this on this board but you can actually see this in effect with the new discourse around the scratches and cuts on Jokic. And how there's now this idea that he doesn't get enough trips to the line despite the way he's all cut up.

But all players get cut up. Terribly so. As another person who is extremely, extremely, and I do mean extremely blindingly white - it's a lot easier to see cuts on white skin than it is on darker skin. But we never hear a real discourse around how cut up Joel Embiid, LeBron, etc may be as well.

This extends into other areas of athletes. I'm mean let's not be disingenuous and sit here and act like American media doesn't salivate at the possibility of a next great white hope athlete, especially in basketball. This is a real thing that happens. Maybe less so these days but it does linger, it does help shape the narrative.

This isn't to discount Jokic's accomplishments by any means, a remarkable talent. We can still recognize his greatness while acknowledging how the media might be more eager to praise him and what he's done and shower him with awards based on his appearance. That isn't an indictment of Jokic, it's an indictment of a media that's still heavily white covering American professional sports which are decidedly not.

Your post seems unintelligible.

What do the cuts on Jokic’s arms have to do with racism? Maybe it’s more visible or maybe his skin just gets cut easier or maybe he gets plain roughed up more.

Media sees the next “Great White Hope” in Jokic - are you serious? He’s the most uncovered superstar in the whole NBA. Hell- the only reason why he’s being covered right now is because of the BS Perkins and others put out there.

If you want to debate the merits of Jokic’s case for MVP please do but immediately attributing it to racism is revealing of your own.

[Wolfgang630]

I love how people get uncomfortable the moment race is brought up. This is exactly why the world is the way it is. I do want to say, racism doesn't just exist from white people. It exists in every single culture in every single country. I'm Indian, and we are some of the most racist people in the world. But, it's okay to say that white privilege, and subconscious racism plays a part in the favoritism given to Jokic. The idea that he can do no wrong, but players like Kyrie Irving, James Harden, Joel Embiid, and Kevin Durant get vilanized for their actions, decisions, or style of play.

I don't deny that white players have to overcome a great amount of stigmatism, and stereotypes because of the color of their sports. Breaking into a predominantly black sport, you have to really prove yourself. Jokic has earned that, and he is one of the best players in the world. But I guarantee you, if this was a black player and they hadn't won a chip or atleast made the finals, that player would not be in the running for MVP.

That being said, black players will always have the microscope on them. LeBron James, people are constantly searching for things to break him down. Tom Brady? The dude clearly cheats and he's lauded as the greatest of all time. I'd be curious to see how many people on this thread are people of color, compared to caucasians. You can say that doesn't matter, but we all know it does, and if this was face to face, these conversations would be a lot more heated. People only say the things they say on this board because they have a screen behind them protecting them.

I **** on Tom Brady all the time and realize they cheated to win super bowls

[eyeatoma]

I know not a lot of people want to hear this on this board but you can actually see this in effect with the new discourse around the scratches and cuts on Jokic. And how there's now this idea that he doesn't get enough trips to the line despite the way he's all cut up.

But all players get cut up. Terribly so. As another person who is extremely, extremely, and I do mean extremely blindingly white - it's a lot easier to see cuts on white skin than it is on darker skin. But we never hear a real discourse around how cut up Joel Embiid, LeBron, etc may be as well.

This extends into other areas of athletes. I'm mean let's not be disingenuous and sit here and act like American media doesn't salivate at the possibility of a next great white hope athlete, especially in basketball. This is a real thing that happens. Maybe less so these days but it does linger, it does help shape the narrative.

This isn't to discount Jokic's accomplishments by any means, a remarkable talent. We can still recognize his greatness while acknowledging how the media might be more eager to praise him and what he's done and shower him with awards based on his appearance. That isn't an indictment of Jokic, it's an indictment of a media that's still heavily white covering American professional sports which are decidedly not.

Thank you, this!!!!!!!

White population media, covering a predominantly black sport. Glad someone said it. I've said before, the biggest mistake was letting the media vote for MVP.

Yeah, that pesky 60% of the country being white is problematic for nba MVP voting.

We should really do something about that.

(except it’s not and you are fighting invisible racists in your head)

Must be great to be benefit from white privelege. White players don't have to deal with cops like black players do either. Black players are scrutinized more than white players, it's pretty easy to see. The league clamping down on the dress code during the Allen Iverson era, was the one of the most racist moves I've ever seen.

[eyeatoma]

The biggest indictment on the NBA, it's got a white commissioner, in a predominantly black league. The NBA has a great opportunity to change that if Silver gets the Disney job. Similar problem with the NFL.

[eyeatoma]

Okay lets look at the MVP case 2 years ago.

Jokic:
Denver 47 wins
Wins with Jokic playing: 47 wins
Jokic didnt miss a game
Jokic led the NBA in VORP, PER, WS/48, BPM, Raptor. Had a slightly better RPM than Embiid

Oh wait, you're bring up advanced stats again lol... Is there any other argument?

Embiid:
Philly 49 wins
Wins with Embiid playing: 39 wins
Embiid missed 21 games in a shortened 72 game season

So whats the case for Embiid for MVP 2 years ago? The fact that Philly won 10 more games without him to push Philly's win total above Denver's?

The case? He was the betting odds favorite at the all star break, and on the straw poll. Just like he was last year, before Zach Lowe and friends threw a hissy fit on their podcasts.

Last year's MVP. Again a 6th seed winning MVP was not something new they did for Jokic. It was literally done 5 years prior. And again what is the argument for Embiid over Jokic last year? Philly having 3 more total wins than Denver? Even though again Jokic played in more wins. Then when it comes to all the advanced metrics, Jokic's lead was even bigger.

I think it's hilarious that people use the narrative to support Joker last year saying he was missing two teammates, where Embiid had Harris, and 2nd year player in Maxey, and no Ben SImmons. A multiple all star DPOY level player. That is more, if not equally as impressive as what Joker did.

So again where are these goal posts clearly moving so these white voters can vote for Jokic?

Is there any other argument than advanced stats? Dude I literally just laid it out for you. He played 20 more games and won more games that year than Embiid. And if you dont like advanced stats (never a good argument by the way to just laugh off legit data by the way), fine lets go to raw stats. Jokic had the slight lead in rebounds per game, averaged double the assists (while having the same amount of turnovers), and had more steals. All Embiid had was a 2ppg advantage (Jokic was the more efficient scorer) and a .7 advantage in blocks. So whether you want to look at wins, advanced stats, or raw stats, Jokic had the advantage. Also what happened after the all star game that year? Oh thats right, Embiid missed 15 of the last 36 games of that season. That kind of plays a big part.

And I have no clue what your second reply is about. Literally didnt reference a single thing I said in my post at all. I didnt mention teammates missing or quality of teammates in my post one time.

And for your last post saying I didnt mention East vs West strength and how that should play a part. Talk about goal posts moving haha. I dont recall that being a big talking point say when Giannis won his 1st MVP even though the West was drastically stronger than the East that year.

? The West was a tougher conference when Giannis won it lol. This isnt hard.

With regards to the games played narrative, that's why you give it to Embiid last year. Because he also played a career high in games. It doesnt' seem like a big deal, but for a player to go from being red shirted two years in a row, and being labeled as the next Greg Oden, to dealing with all the drama the Sixers had to deal with with Hinkie, the Colangelo's, Fultz, Simmons, Jimmy Butler, all those things should play a role in awarding him the MVP. Not only did he have a statistically incredible year last year, he overcome a bucketload of things his entire career to get to where he has.

[Duke4life831]

Is there any other argument than advanced stats? Dude I literally just laid it out for you. He played 20 more games and won more games that year than Embiid. And if you dont like advanced stats (never a good argument by the way to just laugh off legit data by the way), fine lets go to raw stats. Jokic had the slight lead in rebounds per game, averaged double the assists (while having the same amount of turnovers), and had more steals. All Embiid had was a 2ppg advantage (Jokic was the more efficient scorer) and a .7 advantage in blocks. So whether you want to look at wins, advanced stats, or raw stats, Jokic had the advantage. Also what happened after the all star game that year? Oh thats right, Embiid missed 15 of the last 36 games of that season. That kind of plays a big part.

And I have no clue what your second reply is about. Literally didnt reference a single thing I said in my post at all. I didnt mention teammates missing or quality of teammates in my post one time.

And for your last post saying I didnt mention East vs West strength and how that should play a part. Talk about goal posts moving haha. I dont recall that being a big talking point say when Giannis won his 1st MVP even though the West was drastically stronger than the East that year.

? The West was a tougher conference when Giannis won it lol. This isnt hard.

With regards to the games played narrative, that's why you give it to Embiid last year. Because he also played a career high in games. It doesnt' seem like a big deal, but for a player to go from being red shirted two years in a row, and being labeled as the next Greg Oden, to dealing with all the drama the Sixers had to deal with with Hinkie, the Colangelo's, Fultz, Simmons, Jimmy Butler, all those things should play a role in awarding him the MVP. Not only did he have a statistically incredible year last year, he overcome a bucketload of things his entire career to get to where he has.

You write this post and you accuse others of goal post moving. Come one man, this is just straight up comical now. Your post is the definition of moving the goal posts.

[eyeatoma]

I know not a lot of people want to hear this on this board but you can actually see this in effect with the new discourse around the scratches and cuts on Jokic. And how there's now this idea that he doesn't get enough trips to the line despite the way he's all cut up.

But all players get cut up. Terribly so. As another person who is extremely, extremely, and I do mean extremely blindingly white - it's a lot easier to see cuts on white skin than it is on darker skin. But we never hear a real discourse around how cut up Joel Embiid, LeBron, etc may be as well.

This extends into other areas of athletes. I'm mean let's not be disingenuous and sit here and act like American media doesn't salivate at the possibility of a next great white hope athlete, especially in basketball. This is a real thing that happens. Maybe less so these days but it does linger, it does help shape the narrative.

This isn't to discount Jokic's accomplishments by any means, a remarkable talent. We can still recognize his greatness while acknowledging how the media might be more eager to praise him and what he's done and shower him with awards based on his appearance. That isn't an indictment of Jokic, it's an indictment of a media that's still heavily white covering American professional sports which are decidedly not.

Your post seems unintelligible.

What do the cuts on Jokic’s arms have to do with racism? Maybe it’s more visible or maybe his skin just gets cut easier or maybe he gets plain roughed up more.

Media sees the next “Great White Hope” in Jokic - are you serious? He’s the most uncovered superstar in the whole NBA. Hell- the only reason why he’s being covered right now is because of the BS Perkins and others put out there.

If you want to debate the merits of Jokic’s case for MVP please do but immediately attributing it to racism is revealing of your own.

There is discourse on this...this isn't made up...

https://www.yahoo.com/video/nba-found-great-white-hope-174242509.html

[eyeatoma]

Is there any other argument than advanced stats? Dude I literally just laid it out for you. He played 20 more games and won more games that year than Embiid. And if you dont like advanced stats (never a good argument by the way to just laugh off legit data by the way), fine lets go to raw stats. Jokic had the slight lead in rebounds per game, averaged double the assists (while having the same amount of turnovers), and had more steals. All Embiid had was a 2ppg advantage (Jokic was the more efficient scorer) and a .7 advantage in blocks. So whether you want to look at wins, advanced stats, or raw stats, Jokic had the advantage. Also what happened after the all star game that year? Oh thats right, Embiid missed 15 of the last 36 games of that season. That kind of plays a big part.

And I have no clue what your second reply is about. Literally didnt reference a single thing I said in my post at all. I didnt mention teammates missing or quality of teammates in my post one time.

And for your last post saying I didnt mention East vs West strength and how that should play a part. Talk about goal posts moving haha. I dont recall that being a big talking point say when Giannis won his 1st MVP even though the West was drastically stronger than the East that year.

? The West was a tougher conference when Giannis won it lol. This isnt hard.

With regards to the games played narrative, that's why you give it to Embiid last year. Because he also played a career high in games. It doesnt' seem like a big deal, but for a player to go from being red shirted two years in a row, and being labeled as the next Greg Oden, to dealing with all the drama the Sixers had to deal with with Hinkie, the Colangelo's, Fultz, Simmons, Jimmy Butler, all those things should play a role in awarding him the MVP. Not only did he have a statistically incredible year last year, he overcome a bucketload of things his entire career to get to where he has.

You write this post and you accuse others of goal post moving. Come one man, this is just straight up comical now. Your post is the definition of moving the goal posts.

I'm saying last year's MVP was a narrative win for Joker. I'm saying that Embiid had a better narrative lol. That's not moving the goal posts, that's saying one was better, in the same criteria.

For years the NBA has had the issue of the West being stronger than the east. Again that's not a goal post thing, that is brought up often. In year's past when the east has strong records, people will constantly bring up how the west is stronger conference.

[madmaxmedia]

With regards to the games played narrative, that's why you give it to Embiid last year. Because he also played a career high in games. It doesnt' seem like a big deal, but for a player to go from being red shirted two years in a row, and being labeled as the next Greg Oden, to dealing with all the drama the Sixers had to deal with with Hinkie, the Colangelo's, Fultz, Simmons, Jimmy Butler, all those things should play a role in awarding him the MVP. Not only did he have a statistically incredible year last year, he overcome a bucketload of things his entire career to get to where he has.

I'm not arguing whether Embed or Jokic deserved it more, but the bolded part raises eyebrows to me. It's not comeback player of the year, it's most valuable player of the year. It is a subjective award in the end though, so I don't doubt (nor do I really mind) that narratives can play into voter's minds. But I wouldn't nearly go so far as saying Embiid deserved the award more than Jokic because of those factors.

Like if Ben Simmons comes back to have an absolute killer year but doesn't quite match some other player(s), his overcoming adversity doesn't mean he objectively should be the MVP.

[ocelot17]

Jokic does get held to a different standard. He’s on his way to winning his third mvp, yet nobody really expects him to win a championship.

What are you talking about This is the first season where there are some real expectations for Denver to make some noise. If you think he won't get killed for at least not making the Finals this season, your crazy.

The year he won his first MVP, he lost his co-star Jamal Murray to a torn ACL late in the season. The team still went 16-7 without him and got the 3rd seed. The won their first round matchup against the Dubs and were swept by an overmatched Suns squad that went onto the Finals. I'm sorry, was he expected to win a chip with a 22yo MPJ and a mid-season acquisition in Gordon?

When he won his second MVP, he did so with Jamal missing the entire season and MPJ only playing 9 games. I mean Will freakin Barton was their second best player in that playoff run. Was he expected to win a chip here too?

You just made my point for me. The mvp is a narrative driven award. The voters vote based on who they like.

Harden had a better mvp caliber run in four out of five seasons from 2014-19. He had better individual stats, better record, carried worse teams than jokic. The same narrative that’s built for jokic was not used for harden.

Yet, jokic is on his way to win his third mvp but harden only won one. Even Zach Lowe said that voters begrudgingly voted for harden in 2017-18 season, but they didn’t want to.

Jokic deserves to win it this season, but he shouldn’t have won the first two MVPs.

[Peregrine01]

I know not a lot of people want to hear this on this board but you can actually see this in effect with the new discourse around the scratches and cuts on Jokic. And how there's now this idea that he doesn't get enough trips to the line despite the way he's all cut up.

But all players get cut up. Terribly so. As another person who is extremely, extremely, and I do mean extremely blindingly white - it's a lot easier to see cuts on white skin than it is on darker skin. But we never hear a real discourse around how cut up Joel Embiid, LeBron, etc may be as well.

This extends into other areas of athletes. I'm mean let's not be disingenuous and sit here and act like American media doesn't salivate at the possibility of a next great white hope athlete, especially in basketball. This is a real thing that happens. Maybe less so these days but it does linger, it does help shape the narrative.

This isn't to discount Jokic's accomplishments by any means, a remarkable talent. We can still recognize his greatness while acknowledging how the media might be more eager to praise him and what he's done and shower him with awards based on his appearance. That isn't an indictment of Jokic, it's an indictment of a media that's still heavily white covering American professional sports which are decidedly not.

Your post seems unintelligible.

What do the cuts on Jokic’s arms have to do with racism? Maybe it’s more visible or maybe his skin just gets cut easier or maybe he gets plain roughed up more.

Media sees the next “Great White Hope” in Jokic - are you serious? He’s the most uncovered superstar in the whole NBA. Hell- the only reason why he’s being covered right now is because of the BS Perkins and others put out there.

If you want to debate the merits of Jokic’s case for MVP please do but immediately attributing it to racism is revealing of your own.

There is discourse on this...this isn't made up...

https://www.yahoo.com/video/nba-found-great-white-hope-174242509.html

Your link has literally nothing to do with the bolded words that you think you’re responding to.

[JDR720]

The issue with that argument is those white media people still voted for black players the vast majority of the time. And many of those voters are black too, including most of the best known ones. Stephen A has a vote. Mike Wilbon has a vote. Chris Broussard has a vote. David Aldridge has a vote. Greg Anthony has a vote. Chris Herring has a vote. Jalen Rose has a vote. David Aldridge has a vote. Even Kendrick Perkins has a vote.

The NBA media voters are basically a cast of ESPN, SI and The Athletic media people.

Here is the list I found:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview

I mean, there weren't any white players to choose from. If there were, it would be more apparent.

So now it's an issue of the NBA not being diverse enough?

Look, I can buy that the NFL has racial issues. It can be pretty obvious sometimes. But the NBA? We're talking about the most liberal leaning sports league in the country. Players have the power and the biggest NBA media people are liberal and often black themselves. The fanbase is liberal too.

So I just don't buy that there is some conspiracy to boost the least marketable MVP level player we've ever had. Jokic wins MVP's because he puts up historical stats. Yet people (and the media) don't actually take Denver that seriously. As far as I can tell, everyone has the Suns, Bucks or Celtics as favorites. People are saying the West is a toss up despite Denver having a 7 game lead on everyone else.

I know the main reason you dislike him is you're an Embiid fan. You've made many threads about it.

But overall, this is also a reason why people don't like having racial discussions. It's the double-standards. Kendrick Perkins literally said Jokic won MVP because he is white. If, say, JJ Reddick said Wembayama is hyped so much because he is black he'd be canned in a second.

[Synciere]

No argument against Jokic really. I mean team success and defense notwithstanding and one could easily point to Giannis for at least one of this MVPs, but anyone voting Jokic won’t get arguments from me.

Nash and Dirk though? Perkins was a player during those years. And race was mos definitely a focal point during those years.

But pull the wool over your head if you like…

[Jfh20]

The biggest indictment on the NBA, it's got a white commissioner, in a predominantly black league. The NBA has a great opportunity to change that if Silver gets the Disney job. Similar problem with the NFL.

what? what does the skin color of the commissioner have to do with anything? why are people so fixated on color these days? what a weird generation we are living in

[Peregrine01]

The biggest indictment on the NBA, it's got a white commissioner, in a predominantly black league. The NBA has a great opportunity to change that if Silver gets the Disney job. Similar problem with the NFL.

what? what does the skin color of the commissioner have to do with anything? why are people so fixated on color these days? what a weird generation we are living in

People decrying racism are sounding awfully racist themselves. The “biggest problem with the NBA” is that it has a white commissioner. Are you serious? Then again, this is coming from someone with a history of idiotic posts.

[Lockdown504090]

The biggest indictment on the NBA, it's got a white commissioner, in a predominantly black league. The NBA has a great opportunity to change that if Silver gets the Disney job. Similar problem with the NFL.

what? what does the skin color of the commissioner have to do with anything? why are people so fixated on color these days? what a weird generation we are living in

yes, mark tatum will stop the white supremacist media corporation through the overwhelming power of his 50 percent melinated skin. I will be proud to watch louis Farrakhan hold the nba championship in 2027 when the racist ballmer sells the team to him and the La Liberation win their first nba championship.

[eyeatoma]

With regards to the games played narrative, that's why you give it to Embiid last year. Because he also played a career high in games. It doesnt' seem like a big deal, but for a player to go from being red shirted two years in a row, and being labeled as the next Greg Oden, to dealing with all the drama the Sixers had to deal with with Hinkie, the Colangelo's, Fultz, Simmons, Jimmy Butler, all those things should play a role in awarding him the MVP. Not only did he have a statistically incredible year last year, he overcome a bucketload of things his entire career to get to where he has.

I'm not arguing whether Embed or Jokic deserved it more, but the bolded part raises eyebrows to me. It's not comeback player of the year, it's most valuable player of the year. It is a subjective award in the end though, so I don't doubt (nor do I really mind) that narratives can play into voter's minds. But I wouldn't nearly go so far as saying Embiid deserved the award more than Jokic because of those factors.

Like if Ben Simmons comes back to have an absolute killer year but doesn't quite match some other player(s), his overcoming adversity doesn't mean he objectively should be the MVP.

The MVP has always been a narrative award. They award Kobe the MVP, as almost a career accomplishment award, not because he was the best that season.

Ben Simmons didn't come back man... Lol, he's on a one way ticket to China.

[eyeatoma]

The biggest indictment on the NBA, it's got a white commissioner, in a predominantly black league. The NBA has a great opportunity to change that if Silver gets the Disney job. Similar problem with the NFL.

what? what does the skin color of the commissioner have to do with anything? why are people so fixated on color these days? what a weird generation we are living in

yes, mark tatum will stop the white supremacist media corporation through the overwhelming power of his 50 percent melinated skin. I will be proud to watch louis Farrakhan hold the nba championship in 2027 when the racist ballmer sells the team to him and the La Liberation win their first nba championship.

Is it so ridiculous to ask that a predominantly black league be commissioned by a black person? What do people feel threatened by me suggesting this? Especially given the history of this country, as well as the issues it's had with a few owners.

[eyeatoma]

No argument against Jokic really. I mean team success and defense notwithstanding and one could easily point to Giannis for at least one of this MVPs, but anyone voting Jokic won’t get arguments from me.

Nash and Dirk though? Perkins was a player during those years. And race was mos definitely a focal point during those years.

But pull the wool over your head if you like…

Preach!

[eyeatoma]

The issue with that argument is those white media people still voted for black players the vast majority of the time. And many of those voters are black too, including most of the best known ones. Stephen A has a vote. Mike Wilbon has a vote. Chris Broussard has a vote. David Aldridge has a vote. Greg Anthony has a vote. Chris Herring has a vote. Jalen Rose has a vote. David Aldridge has a vote. Even Kendrick Perkins has a vote.

The NBA media voters are basically a cast of ESPN, SI and The Athletic media people.

Here is the list I found:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview

I mean, there weren't any white players to choose from. If there were, it would be more apparent.

So now it's an issue of the NBA not being diverse enough?

Look, I can buy that the NFL has racial issues. It can be pretty obvious sometimes. But the NBA? We're talking about the most liberal leaning sports league in the country. Players have the power and the biggest NBA media people are liberal and often black themselves. The fanbase is liberal too.

So I just don't buy that there is some conspiracy to boost the least marketable MVP level player we've ever had. Jokic wins MVP's because he puts up historical stats. Yet people (and the media) don't actually take Denver that seriously. As far as I can tell, everyone has the Suns, Bucks or Celtics as favorites. People are saying the West is a toss up despite Denver having a 7 game lead on everyone else.

I know the main reason you dislike him is you're an Embiid fan. You've made many threads about it.

But overall, this is also a reason why people don't like having racial discussions. It's the double-standards. Kendrick Perkins literally said Jokic won MVP because he is white. If, say, JJ Reddick said Wembayama is hyped so much because he is black he'd be canned in a second.

I don't think theres a conspiracy. But I do think that the there are racist undertones, and tendency to label Jokic a charming, fun loving, chubby guy. Do y'all remember the hate Embiid gets for his issues with weight earlier in his career? Fact of the matter is the majority of the media is white. One of the most influential media groups is the Ringer, which is predominantly a pro Boston homer group, that lauds advanced stats, as a way to differentiate players from black players. There is subconscious racism in the NBA. It's clearly in American society, why do you think the NBA would be any different?