Pistons-Wizards (7pm)

[Pistonrings]

You should reconsider your negative viewpoint.

This team has lost 8 in a row. The young guys need to see a win every now and again, otherwise it's demoralizing and hinders player development.

Sorry, but Ivey's points are his already, same for Wiseman, no way just a win or loss in the last few seconds is going to even be in the same universe as the loss of possibly a few draft spots in the draft. That could be devastating and make huge difference in our future. Worst record is assured of a top 5 pick.

We have come too far in this misery to hurt ourselves in the draft now. A win here and you would need a microscope to see the benefit.

Missing the point. The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins (at least every now and again) and take this confidence into every game, including next season (when we are trying to win). Anyone who has ever played or coached basketball knows how draining a long losing streak can be and how it affects the team's mentality.

I get the clamoring for losses and draft position but we are clearly locked into a bottom 3 position and have equal odds for both a top 4 position and #1 overall.

If you can't be happy with a win tonight then presumably you're hoping we lose all of our remaining games and take a 25 game losing streak into the off-season?

No I want the worst record, PERIOD. that doesn't have to mean 25 straight losses, it means, THE WORST RECORD, nothing more, nothing less.

" The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins "
You have to be kidding with this. What are these guys, 5 year old kids? You mean to tell me that they aren't sure that goid play can lead to wins? Do you think these players watched the NBA finals last year, or the final 4? You are scrambling for an argument that has no chance of being right. It would be very dumb to screw this draft up after all the misery the team and fans have been through already.

Clearly we are tanking, that is the right move and that isn't even debatable. If we get the worst record we are assured of top 5. I'm not sure how far the next 2 can possibly drop, but it would simply be dumb not to attempt to have the very best chance we can have in the draft after all the hell this team has been through. If you are going to do something, you do it right.

I assure you, our players are fully aware that wins and hard play are linked. I would say they learned that, oh, at around 7 or 8 years old?

If Houdon loses the rest of their games, then we should do the same. If the other teams win 10 straight, then we can win 9 of 10, see? We want the WORST RECORD, PERIOD. That's the right thing to do when we are almost through with this nightmare season. The players are not stupid, they know damn well that the front office wants losses, so to claim that these losses at the end of an obvious tank season will somehow damage their future is just, well you tell me what it is. I have total faith that they will be just fine next season if we were to get a top 5 pick playing with them along with Cade. Don't you?

[tmorgan]

One thing to keep an eye on…

Wiseman, so far, is consistently putting up bad (sometimes the worst, like tonight) +/- numbers relative to his teammates. Meaning we’re at our worst when he’s out on the floor on a pretty regular basis.

This is something Warriors fans (and occasional watchers, such as me) can call a pattern. Wiseman has a lot to learn about playing smart basketball. Now is a good time to play him and hope something clicks eventually.

[Mr Peanut]

Sorry, but Ivey's points are his already, same for Wiseman, no way just a win or loss in the last few seconds is going to even be in the same universe as the loss of possibly a few draft spots in the draft. That could be devastating and make huge difference in our future. Worst record is assured of a top 5 pick.

We have come too far in this misery to hurt ourselves in the draft now. A win here and you would need a microscope to see the benefit.

Missing the point. The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins (at least every now and again) and take this confidence into every game, including next season (when we are trying to win). Anyone who has ever played or coached basketball knows how draining a long losing streak can be and how it affects the team's mentality.

I get the clamoring for losses and draft position but we are clearly locked into a bottom 3 position and have equal odds for both a top 4 position and #1 overall.

If you can't be happy with a win tonight then presumably you're hoping we lose all of our remaining games and take a 25 game losing streak into the off-season?

No I want the worst record, PERIOD. that doesn't have to mean 25 straight losses, it means, THE WORST RECORD, nothing more, nothing less.

" The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins "
You have to be kidding with this. What are these guys, 5 year old kids? You mean to tell me that they aren't sure that goid play can lead to wins? Do you think these players watched the NBA finals last year, or the final 4? You are scrambling for an argument that has no chance of being right. It would be very dumb to screw this draft up after all the misery the team and fans have been through already.

Clearly we are tanking, that is the right move and that isn't even debatable. If we get the worst record we are assured of top 5. I'm not sure how far the next 2 can possibly drop, but it would simply be dumb not to attempt to have the very best chance we can have in the draft after all the hell this team has been through. If you are going to do something, you do it right.

I assure you, our players are fully aware that wins and hard play are linked. I would say they learned that, oh, at around 7 or 8 years old?

If Houdon loses the rest of their games, then we should do the same. If the other teams win 10 straight, then we can win 9 of 10, see? We want the WORST RECORD, PERIOD. That's the right thing to do when we are almost through with this nightmare season. The players are not stupid, they know damn well that the front office wants losses, so to claim that these losses at the end of an obvious tank season will somehow damage their future is just, well you tell me what it is. I have total faith that they will be just fine next season if we were to get a top 5 pick playing with them along with Cade. Don't you?

Repeating yourself, using straw man rhetorical questions, and using all caps doesn't make your argument any more right.

And newsflash, we could have won tonight and still finish with the worst record overall.

Your logic isn't taking into account the tiers of this upcoming draft. Common consensus is there's Wemby, Scoot and Miller as the top three and probably in that order. And no matter where we finish in the bottom 3 record wise, our odds of getting any of those guys are exactly the same as the other two teams. However, the players that will be selected 4 through 10 are all in a similar pool talent wise and the difference between picking 5 and 7 is fairly negligible (once again stressing that finishing 3rd worst doesn't commit to us the 7th pick anyway).

But sure, keep rooting for us to lose absolutely every game and call yourself a fan.

[Pistonrings]

Missing the point. The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins (at least every now and again) and take this confidence into every game, including next season (when we are trying to win). Anyone who has ever played or coached basketball knows how draining a long losing streak can be and how it affects the team's mentality.

I get the clamoring for losses and draft position but we are clearly locked into a bottom 3 position and have equal odds for both a top 4 position and #1 overall.

If you can't be happy with a win tonight then presumably you're hoping we lose all of our remaining games and take a 25 game losing streak into the off-season?

No I want the worst record, PERIOD. that doesn't have to mean 25 straight losses, it means, THE WORST RECORD, nothing more, nothing less.

" The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins "
You have to be kidding with this. What are these guys, 5 year old kids? You mean to tell me that they aren't sure that goid play can lead to wins? Do you think these players watched the NBA finals last year, or the final 4? You are scrambling for an argument that has no chance of being right. It would be very dumb to screw this draft up after all the misery the team and fans have been through already.

Clearly we are tanking, that is the right move and that isn't even debatable. If we get the worst record we are assured of top 5. I'm not sure how far the next 2 can possibly drop, but it would simply be dumb not to attempt to have the very best chance we can have in the draft after all the hell this team has been through. If you are going to do something, you do it right.

I assure you, our players are fully aware that wins and hard play are linked. I would say they learned that, oh, at around 7 or 8 years old?

If Houdon loses the rest of their games, then we should do the same. If the other teams win 10 straight, then we can win 9 of 10, see? We want the WORST RECORD, PERIOD. That's the right thing to do when we are almost through with this nightmare season. The players are not stupid, they know damn well that the front office wants losses, so to claim that these losses at the end of an obvious tank season will somehow damage their future is just, well you tell me what it is. I have total faith that they will be just fine next season if we were to get a top 5 pick playing with them along with Cade. Don't you?

Repeating yourself, using straw man rhetorical questions, and using all caps doesn't make your argument any more right.

And newsflash, we could have won tonight and still finish with the worst record overall.

Your logic isn't taking into account the tiers of this upcoming draft. Common consensus is there's Wemby, Scoot and Miller as the top three and probably in that order. And no matter where we finish in the bottom 3 record wise, our odds of getting any of those guys are exactly the same as the other two teams. However, the players that will be selected 4 through 10 are all in a similar pool talent wise and the difference between picking 5 and 7 is fairly negligible (once again stressing that finishing 3rd worst doesn't absolutely commit to us the 7th pick anyway).

But sure, keep rooting for us to lose absolutely every game and call yourself a fan.

And claiming that the 5th pick is no better than the 7th or 8th is just nonsense. So you are saying, do something, but don't do it better than others do, great.

You first tried to say that the players don't know that hard play can lead to wins, as if they don't know that the front office is tanking, now you are on to saying that there is no real difference between the 5th pick and 7 or 8, really. Well thanks, but I prefer to have the 5th over the 8th, no matter what your opinions of the players in the draft are. Do you think Weaver would prefer the 5th pick over the 7th or 8th? I bet he would, same as I and many others would.

Stick to your original argument, the players, clearly knowing the franchise is tanking, could have their future development hurt by winning 17 games instead if 19 games, correct? And this is why we shouldn't go for the very worst record and be assured of a top 5 pick.

I can see it now, we make the 2nd round of the playoffs with a guy we got at the 5th pick, and we lose in game 7, then you could say, see? If we would have won 19 games last season instead of 17, we would have been better developed.

There is absolutely no reason, none, not to attempt to give ourselves the very best chance in the draft as we can. You obviously know we are tanking, so we just shouldn't be the best at it according to you, right?

I bet not one single GM would consider the 8th and the 5th pick as equals. So you pull for us to not assure ourselves of at least a top 5 pick and call yourself a fan, and I'll pull for us to finish with the worst record and be assured of a top 5 pick and call myself a fan. So boiling this down, you are claiming that you think a couple extra wins at the en d of a tank season where the players obviously know they are tanking, can help our young players more than the difference between the 5th or 7th or 8th , we disagree, ill take the assured top 5 over the couple pointless wins.

[ComboGuardCity]

No matter what we pull for it doesn’t matter which is a nice way to look at it.

Just finished the game. As soon as they got the ball for the last possession I knew the game was over. Great game by Jaden

[Pistonrings]

No matter what we pull for it doesn’t matter which is a nice way to look at it.

Just finished the game. As soon as they got the ball for the last possession I knew the game was over. Great game by Jaden

Ivey is fun to watch, especially when he explodes through the paint getting to the basket sometimes. He goes so fast it's like the defenders are moving in slow motion.

[Mr Peanut]

No I want the worst record, PERIOD. that doesn't have to mean 25 straight losses, it means, THE WORST RECORD, nothing more, nothing less.

" The young players need to know their good play can lead on to wins "
You have to be kidding with this. What are these guys, 5 year old kids? You mean to tell me that they aren't sure that goid play can lead to wins? Do you think these players watched the NBA finals last year, or the final 4? You are scrambling for an argument that has no chance of being right. It would be very dumb to screw this draft up after all the misery the team and fans have been through already.

Clearly we are tanking, that is the right move and that isn't even debatable. If we get the worst record we are assured of top 5. I'm not sure how far the next 2 can possibly drop, but it would simply be dumb not to attempt to have the very best chance we can have in the draft after all the hell this team has been through. If you are going to do something, you do it right.

I assure you, our players are fully aware that wins and hard play are linked. I would say they learned that, oh, at around 7 or 8 years old?

If Houdon loses the rest of their games, then we should do the same. If the other teams win 10 straight, then we can win 9 of 10, see? We want the WORST RECORD, PERIOD. That's the right thing to do when we are almost through with this nightmare season. The players are not stupid, they know damn well that the front office wants losses, so to claim that these losses at the end of an obvious tank season will somehow damage their future is just, well you tell me what it is. I have total faith that they will be just fine next season if we were to get a top 5 pick playing with them along with Cade. Don't you?

Repeating yourself, using straw man rhetorical questions, and using all caps doesn't make your argument any more right.

And newsflash, we could have won tonight and still finish with the worst record overall.

Your logic isn't taking into account the tiers of this upcoming draft. Common consensus is there's Wemby, Scoot and Miller as the top three and probably in that order. And no matter where we finish in the bottom 3 record wise, our odds of getting any of those guys are exactly the same as the other two teams. However, the players that will be selected 4 through 10 are all in a similar pool talent wise and the difference between picking 5 and 7 is fairly negligible (once again stressing that finishing 3rd worst doesn't absolutely commit to us the 7th pick anyway).

But sure, keep rooting for us to lose absolutely every game and call yourself a fan.

And claiming that the 5th pick is no better than the 7th or 8th is just nonsense. So you are saying, do something, but don't do it better than others do, great.

You first tried to say that the players don't know that hard play can lead to wins, as if they don't know that the front office is tanking, now you are on to saying that there is no real difference between the 5th pick and 7 or 8, really. Well thanks, but I prefer to have the 5th over the 8th, no matter what your opinions of the players in the draft are. Do you think Weaver would prefer the 5th pick over the 7th or 8th? I bet he would, same as I and many others would.

Stick to your original argument, the players, clearly knowing the franchise is tanking, could have their future development hurt by winning 17 games instead if 19 games, correct? And this is why we shouldn't go for the very worst record and be assured of a top 5 pick.

I can see it now, we make the 2nd round of the playoffs with a guy we got at the 5th pick, and we lose in game 7, then you could say, see? If we would have won 19 games last season instead of 17, we would have been better developed.

There is absolutely no reason, none, not to attempt to give ourselves the very best chance in the draft as we can. You obviously know we are tanking, so we just shouldn't be the best at it according to you, right?

I bet not one single GM would consider the 8th and the 5th pick as equals. So you pull for us to not assure ourselves of at least a top 5 pick and call yourself a fan, and I'll pull for us to finish with the worst record and be assured of a top 5 pick and call myself a fan. So boiling this down, you are claiming that you think a couple extra wins at the en d of a tank season where the players obviously know they are tanking, can help our young players more than the difference between the 5th or 7th or 8th , we disagree, ill take the assured top 5 over the couple pointless wins.

Who said anything about an 8th pick? The lowest we can fall is 7th with a bottom 3 record. Cut the hyperbole.

I have stuck to my original argument, I merely added additional points to support the fact that we don't need to lose absolutely every game to get a good player in this draft.

There's no point continuing this further because you seem incapable of appreciating certain factors.

I'll continue to support our young guys to get the odd victory, while fully expecting they get a bottom 3 record and still the best odds at a top 4 pick. If you want us to start the 2023/24 season on a 25 losing game streak, and potentially lose the first game of next season and suffer the ignominy of being tied for the worst losing streak in NBA history, then good for you.

[floppymoose]

One thing to keep an eye on…

Wiseman, so far, is consistently putting up bad (sometimes the worst, like tonight) +/- numbers relative to his teammates. Meaning we’re at our worst when he’s out on the floor on a pretty regular basis.

This is like when GSW got Corey Maggette and it led directly to getting Steph Curry in the draft.

[JackTalkThai]

Ivey is going to be a real dude. Idk how Cade is going to take the point back from him next season.

Both of them will struggle to take the point back once Scoot is on the team. But I won’t mind starting three guys who can all initiate, create and run the offense.

[BadMofoPimp]

Ivey gonna provem all wrong!!!

[Billl]

One thing I like about ivey as a prospect is that he's not pounding the air out the ball even though he gets a lot of touches. When he gets it, he's making a move. He's not dancing around the perimeter while everyone watches. If the shot isn't going up on the catch, he's likely going to be into the lane in the next 2 seconds. From there? His decision making is still a work in progress, but he's a rookie, so what do you expect. Long term though, it's way easier to blend that type of game with other high scorers since the ball keeps moving.

[bstein14]

Cade and Ivey need to both be working on catch and shoot and play making. Eventually we might split their time on the court more to always have one in the game, but the ceiling is certainly high for them as a duo as well. Joe D could create for others quite well, but often played without the ball in his hands as much when Zeke was still around.

I actually think Cade will be better as the pick and roll guard, but Ivey will be better as the guard in transition and also making off ball cuts while Cade creates.

[a8bil]

One thing to keep an eye on…

Wiseman, so far, is consistently putting up bad (sometimes the worst, like tonight) +/- numbers relative to his teammates. Meaning we’re at our worst when he’s out on the floor on a pretty regular basis.

This is something Warriors fans (and occasional watchers, such as me) can call a pattern. Wiseman has a lot to learn about playing smart basketball. Now is a good time to play him and hope something clicks eventually.

Exactly right. By my estimation, Wiseman has 2 major limitations to his game right now, one of which he may never solve. First, he is slow to recognize everything...from defensive rotations to recognizing how the ball will come off the rim when an errant shot goes up. Second, his base is slow. He's not a quick leaper...he doesn't have a quick first step and he gathers deeply to get any elevation -- there is no "bounce" in his game. With slow reactions and no bounce, there are a lot balls he should be getting to, but he doesn't. And, he's not even seeing where and how to box out. I would hope with more PT he'll solve the recognition issue, but not sure if he can solve the short space quickness/bounce issue.

[Drwho17]

One thing to keep an eye on…

Wiseman, so far, is consistently putting up bad (sometimes the worst, like tonight) +/- numbers relative to his teammates. Meaning we’re at our worst when he’s out on the floor on a pretty regular basis.

This is something Warriors fans (and occasional watchers, such as me) can call a pattern. Wiseman has a lot to learn about playing smart basketball. Now is a good time to play him and hope something clicks eventually.

He's not being played for the player he is now, he's being played for the player he can be in the future.

[tmorgan]

One thing to keep an eye on…

Wiseman, so far, is consistently putting up bad (sometimes the worst, like tonight) +/- numbers relative to his teammates. Meaning we’re at our worst when he’s out on the floor on a pretty regular basis.

This is something Warriors fans (and occasional watchers, such as me) can call a pattern. Wiseman has a lot to learn about playing smart basketball. Now is a good time to play him and hope something clicks eventually.

He's not being played for the player he is now, he's being played for the player he can be in the future.

Yep. That’s definitely what we’re telling ourselves.

[Mr Peanut]

One thing to keep an eye on…

Wiseman, so far, is consistently putting up bad (sometimes the worst, like tonight) +/- numbers relative to his teammates. Meaning we’re at our worst when he’s out on the floor on a pretty regular basis.

This is something Warriors fans (and occasional watchers, such as me) can call a pattern. Wiseman has a lot to learn about playing smart basketball. Now is a good time to play him and hope something clicks eventually.

He's not being played for the player he is now, he's being played for the player he can be in the future.

Yep. That’s definitely what we’re telling ourselves.

It's definitely a fair comment. Wiseman played 3 games in college and with injury troubles has not even played a full rookie season worth of games technically (68 so far). I think we all recognise he isn't good right now but the length and potential talent is there. If he makes strides and starts to show real progress by the end of next season then fantastic, if not then we let him go and move on. Might sound like a potential bleak outcome but probably preferable to paying $20M+ per year to an inefficient SF who can't defend in Bey.

[Invictus88]

He's not being played for the player he is now, he's being played for the player he can be in the future.

Yep. That’s definitely what we’re telling ourselves.

It's definitely a fair comment. Wiseman played 3 games in college and with injury troubles has not even played a full rookie season worth of games technically (68 so far). I think we all recognise he isn't good right now but the length and potential talent is there. If he makes strides and starts to show real progress by the end of next season then fantastic, if not then we let him go and move on. Might sound like a potential bleak outcome but probably preferable to paying $20M+ per year to an inefficient SF who can't defend in Bey.

So the one thing I will say after hearing him interview (which happened after their recent loss where the guy rebounded the ball in to win) is that he sounded fairly articulate in explaining where the breakdown occurred on defense etc. He expressed his accountability in that circumstance as well.

He might very well not have good instincts / awareness and if that's the case then maybe there isn't anything that can be done about it. But what I pointed out above in combination with his athletic ability at least gives me hope that he's mentally and physically able to play better defense. And if that's the case then he would just get better with more reps.

[whitehops]

I actually think Cade will be better as the pick and roll guard, but Ivey will be better as the guard in transition and also making off ball cuts while Cade creates.

I think is definitely the better primary ball handler and really manages the offense better. Ivey could be a great secondary ball handler and with his speed could be great running weak side actions while the defense is focused on cade running the pick and roll. Back door cuts, coming off screens for shots and quick-hitting PnRs in space could easily be ivey’s bread and butter as the secondary guy.

[floppymoose]

. I think we all recognise he isn't good right now but the length and potential talent is there. If he makes strides and starts to show real progress by the end of next season then fantastic, if not then we let him go and move on. Might sound like a potential bleak outcome but probably preferable to paying $20M+ per year to an inefficient SF who can't defend in Bey.

Exactly. It will be easier for your GM to walk away from Wiseman…. Its not like your GM spent a #2 pick to get him. Signing a below avg player to a long term deal is a worse outcome then just letting a rookie walk. In the end either both DET and GSW dodge bullets by not getting tied long term to Wiseman and Bey, or maybe Wiseman improves and becomes worth resigning.