ImageImageImageImageImage

Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

Moderators: Morris_Shatford, 7 Footer, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX

User avatar
HumbleRen
RealGM
Posts: 18,562
And1: 25,601
Joined: Jul 02, 2021
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#561 » by HumbleRen » Tue Mar 7, 2023 11:16 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Sure and he COULD maybe look better in a different offensive system. But he'll hit the same ceiling anyways.

Our offense is a mess, there's no arguing that. Is it the system, is it we don't have shooters or creators, is it both?

But again, the excuses alarm me.


I don’t think it’s excuses, more so just the reality of the situation.

We’re near last in every single metric when it comes to offence outside of transition and points off turnovers. That’s not a Scottie thing, that’s a roster thing.


It can be both at the same time. like you said.


Yep. Just wanted to add context because your point felt rather surfaced level at first glance.

I think we’re essentially saying the same things though.
NoBias
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,650
And1: 2,255
Joined: May 17, 2013

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#562 » by NoBias » Tue Mar 7, 2023 11:16 pm

Trade him for a star who’s going to be moved.
Scottie won’t be that good.
User avatar
Vampirate
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,671
And1: 4,496
Joined: Dec 04, 2016
     

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#563 » by Vampirate » Tue Mar 7, 2023 11:50 pm

HumbleRen wrote:Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.


Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.


This isn't true and people need to get off this position less idea.

The truth is we simply have the Rostor leftovers from that championship run. Siakam, OG were drafted years ago, FVV was an undrafted product who overachieved.

GTJ was simply trying to get a younger asset from a player who's about to enter their 30s, Norm.

As for Barnes himself, the only player who you can argue should have been drafted over him is a guy whose 6"8 himself, Franz Wagner, there's literally no other player worth discussing.

So really 3 players were from a different era, 1 was an asset flip and the last was a pretty good draft prospect.

As for the whole position less philosophy there's merit to it. In order to win a title, you really do need that player whose exceedingly good at everything or alot of things, those players are typically over 6"8 and are amazing at a bunch of things.

Giannis is a switch army knife, as is Lebron, Luka, KD, as is Jokic etc.

Having a top 5 player in their prime is a cheat code for a reason.

The issue with any of our players is they simply aren't good enough to transcend their positions.

Siakam is the closest player we have to be that as he has the height, length and quickness, he just isn't good enough of a shooter.

Barnes is obviously the only player that has the potential to get there, but those odds are heavily against him, but thankfully it's yet to be determined at this point.

The real trick (hard part) is to get one of those players who can transcend past their positions in some way, and then build around that player in the traditional sense.

Without that type of talent, you still aren't going anywhere no matter how traditional/untraditional you build.

The fault of this FO is sticking with the old guard when it's time to move on. All of GTJ, FVV, OG and Siakam should be moved imo.

We need to build a new core from the ground up again, Barnes is a start.
Image
User avatar
Tha Cynic
RealGM
Posts: 26,695
And1: 28,617
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Location: Starin' at the world through my rearview
     

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#564 » by Tha Cynic » Wed Mar 8, 2023 12:40 am

HumbleRen wrote:
Tha Cynic wrote:Let's get this out of the way - Midrange and improving the handles are a key to next season for Barnes personally. After that he needs to change his mindset to more of a scorer mentality. The roster around him really isn't suited for his skill-set, so anything he can provide is a plus at this stage this season. I don't get high or low anymore as he isn't going to magically hit a bunch of jumpers for the remaining games. I like that he's starting to drive and take mid range jumpers more. Let him develop his "guard" skills. His decision making in general has gotten more passive this season and into the later stages as opposed to last season where he was more aggressive as the season went on.

But, the Raptors need to figure out their offense. They have played two seasons with this exact same team (now adding Poeltl), and no one knows what their teammate is doing or when to expect passes. That's a huge issue and something that comes back to what Nurse is doing. How does your team have zero chemistry on offense after nearly two full seasons? They need to fix this offense as a whole and they have the highest paid coach in the NBA as a supposed offensive minded coach.

Masai needs to make some roster changes going into next season. Make a decision - are you making Barnes a cornerstone or not? If not, then trade him. If yes, then trade others.


Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.

Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.


The Warriors did this with a bunch of guards who could shoot. The Raptors are trying the exact opposite with a bunch of raw offensive players who are very limited.

The Warriors are a huge exception because their chemistry, offensive game plan and execution is off the charts and they have the best shooter of all time. The Raptors focus more on defense and don't coach offense. Huge difference between the two. The Raptors also don't do anything to adjust their system to take advantage of individual skills which the Warrior do a great job of.

I think where they miscalculated is trusting the players to figure this out on their own and this has lead to more individual play on offense which has seeped their defense. They also don't have enough high IQ players.
Kobe Bryant:You asked for my hustle - I gave you my heart, because it came with so much more."~Kobe #MambaOut
Chandan
RealGM
Posts: 18,350
And1: 22,015
Joined: Nov 23, 2017
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#565 » by Chandan » Wed Mar 8, 2023 12:48 am

MonkBatter42 wrote:I wish Scottie would just drop the point guard schtick. Just because he's a talented passer doesn't make him a point guard. He's a power forward, and he thrives in that role. I don't want to see this guy dribbling aimlessly around the perimiter. Dude can barely handle the ball. He can't even keep his dribble even somewhat low while running in a straight line in transition, and once he reaches the top of the 3 point line, he has no wiggle/ability to change direction whatsoever, in order to continue into the paint. We clearly see him at his best when he operates in the post and uses his strength to his advantage. When he does receive the ball on the perimeter, all I want to see is quick North-South movement. If there is a quick drive available, drive it. If not, pass it and get your ass into the post and bang for position. He is not this "swaggy" ball-handling guard or wing guy that he wishes he was. As a fanbase, how did we go from 95% of us freaking out after we drafted him knowing he had no offensive game, to now believing that he is the second coming of Magic? He is not him.


but if Scottie does as you describe there goes the dream of him ever becoming a top 10 player, and the franchise cant keep selling hope and would have no way to justify not tanking and trading away our first round pick.
Image
User avatar
Tha Cynic
RealGM
Posts: 26,695
And1: 28,617
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Location: Starin' at the world through my rearview
     

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#566 » by Tha Cynic » Wed Mar 8, 2023 12:50 am

Something to remember is that if Barnes was any less raw, he would have been drafted ahead of 4 and the Raptors end up with Jalen Green who is a dime a dozen player these days.

The growth won't be easy, but that's where patience and hoping you hit on the right character and work ethic guy makes a huge difference. Let's see what this off-season brings. Last season was all wins and overwhelmed and this is the first adversary Barnes is facing. This should give a good sense of character.

My thoughts on this whole situation is that there is no further Siakam and FVV can give us. They are what they are. The one potential for more this team has is Barnes and there are a couple of elite players in the league who came up raw. That's where the focus needs to be. That development.
Kobe Bryant:You asked for my hustle - I gave you my heart, because it came with so much more."~Kobe #MambaOut
User avatar
Thaddy
Head Coach
Posts: 6,894
And1: 4,014
Joined: Dec 12, 2022

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#567 » by Thaddy » Wed Mar 8, 2023 1:06 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Thaddy wrote:Does ceiling matter when he's not even improving? Same bad handles, bad shot, and even worse defense. He was getting turned and danced on by Murray. Murray spun him around like a drunk thot and I saw Barnes on his ass a few times crying about calls.


He's a PF who was defending a PG. He's a versatile defender. That doesn't mean he can defend every position at an elite level.

IMO, we need to bench Barnes to light a fire under his ass. He needed to get his shot at league average level yesterday, it's overdue now. So hit the bench until you can figure that out.


His development of a shot is overdue, at age 21?

What skill did he improve?
User avatar
Tha Cynic
RealGM
Posts: 26,695
And1: 28,617
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Location: Starin' at the world through my rearview
     

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#568 » by Tha Cynic » Wed Mar 8, 2023 1:09 am

MonkBatter42 wrote:I wish Scottie would just drop the point guard schtick. Just because he's a talented passer doesn't make him a point guard. He's a power forward, and he thrives in that role. I don't want to see this guy dribbling aimlessly around the perimiter. Dude can barely handle the ball. He can't even keep his dribble even somewhat low while running in a straight line in transition, and once he reaches the top of the 3 point line, he has no wiggle/ability to change direction whatsoever, in order to continue into the paint. We clearly see him at his best when he operates in the post and uses his strength to his advantage. When he does receive the ball on the perimeter, all I want to see is quick North-South movement. If there is a quick drive available, drive it. If not, pass it and get your ass into the post and bang for position. He is not this "swaggy" ball-handling guard or wing guy that he wishes he was. As a fanbase, how did we go from 95% of us freaking out after we drafted him knowing he had no offensive game, to now believing that he is the second coming of Magic? He is not him.


It's probably somewhere in between. You're trying to limit him expanding and instead focus on what he's already good at. He has shown enough flashes to show that improvement is possible. We have seen players on this team go from zero handles to becoming the main ball handler. That's going to simply be focus on training. We're less patient than we were years ago with player development. We do not want to develop him into an undersized big man. That defeats the purpose of drafting him 4th overall.

What he does need to focus on is his PG and guard like skills. He's already good at the big man skills. In fact, boxing out and screening have become very good this year. His mid range also looks very good when it's at the end of the shot clock. So it's a matter of repetition and focus.

Ultimately he won't be a PG but a point forward who can handle the ball.
Kobe Bryant:You asked for my hustle - I gave you my heart, because it came with so much more."~Kobe #MambaOut
User avatar
duppyy
RealGM
Posts: 19,341
And1: 13,859
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Location: ???????, ??????
       

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#569 » by duppyy » Wed Mar 8, 2023 2:12 am

We don't need to trade him, stop being fickle.
User avatar
S.W.A.N
Head Coach
Posts: 6,725
And1: 3,335
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Location: Sick Wicked And Nasty
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#570 » by S.W.A.N » Wed Mar 8, 2023 2:35 am

What the hell? Trade Scottie? That is a crazy idea.

His development isn't as fast as some would've liked but the tool set is all there to be a top 2 guy on a team. We see it soo many times when 4th quarter Scottie comes out.

Give him a couple years to develop that 3 ball and refine his midrange he is going to be a fantastic player.
We the North
User avatar
HiJiNX
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 16,199
And1: 15,236
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Location: T-Dot

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#571 » by HiJiNX » Wed Mar 8, 2023 2:57 am

Tha Cynic wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Tha Cynic wrote:Let's get this out of the way - Midrange and improving the handles are a key to next season for Barnes personally. After that he needs to change his mindset to more of a scorer mentality. The roster around him really isn't suited for his skill-set, so anything he can provide is a plus at this stage this season. I don't get high or low anymore as he isn't going to magically hit a bunch of jumpers for the remaining games. I like that he's starting to drive and take mid range jumpers more. Let him develop his "guard" skills. His decision making in general has gotten more passive this season and into the later stages as opposed to last season where he was more aggressive as the season went on.

But, the Raptors need to figure out their offense. They have played two seasons with this exact same team (now adding Poeltl), and no one knows what their teammate is doing or when to expect passes. That's a huge issue and something that comes back to what Nurse is doing. How does your team have zero chemistry on offense after nearly two full seasons? They need to fix this offense as a whole and they have the highest paid coach in the NBA as a supposed offensive minded coach.

Masai needs to make some roster changes going into next season. Make a decision - are you making Barnes a cornerstone or not? If not, then trade him. If yes, then trade others.


Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.

Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.


The Warriors did this with a bunch of guards who could shoot. The Raptors are trying the exact opposite with a bunch of raw offensive players who are very limited.

The Warriors are a huge exception because their chemistry, offensive game plan and execution is off the charts and they have the best shooter of all time. The Raptors focus more on defense and don't coach offense. Huge difference between the two. The Raptors also don't do anything to adjust their system to take advantage of individual skills which the Warrior do a great job of.

I think where they miscalculated is trusting the players to figure this out on their own and this has lead to more individual play on offense which has seeped their defense. They also don't have enough high IQ players.

Nailed it with that last sentence. How many teams can you say are collectively stupider than ours? Houston? Maybe Detroit? That’s kind of it. I don’t think it’s talked about enough, that we have about four high IQ players in Poetl, Barnes, Thad and Dowtin Jr. The problem is that only one of those guys is a consistently good NBA player right now. That’s a problem. It’s hard to teach IQ. The lack of it lowers our ceiling.
not strong, only aggresive cuz the power ain't directed/ that's why, we are subjected to the will of the oppressive
User avatar
Raps in 4
RealGM
Posts: 67,101
And1: 61,960
Joined: Nov 01, 2008
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#572 » by Raps in 4 » Wed Mar 8, 2023 3:17 am

Thaddy wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Thaddy wrote:Does ceiling matter when he's not even improving? Same bad handles, bad shot, and even worse defense. He was getting turned and danced on by Murray. Murray spun him around like a drunk thot and I saw Barnes on his ass a few times crying about calls.


He's a PF who was defending a PG. He's a versatile defender. That doesn't mean he can defend every position at an elite level.

IMO, we need to bench Barnes to light a fire under his ass. He needed to get his shot at league average level yesterday, it's overdue now. So hit the bench until you can figure that out.


His development of a shot is overdue, at age 21?

What skill did he improve?


It doesn't matter because he's 21. Development isn't linear.
User avatar
Thaddy
Head Coach
Posts: 6,894
And1: 4,014
Joined: Dec 12, 2022

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#573 » by Thaddy » Wed Mar 8, 2023 7:36 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Thaddy wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
He's a PF who was defending a PG. He's a versatile defender. That doesn't mean he can defend every position at an elite level.



His development of a shot is overdue, at age 21?

What skill did he improve?


It doesn't matter because he's 21. Development isn't linear.

Lol a down year doesn't indicate a better chance of him suddenly being way better next year either. In fact when has a player who's been the same for several years just suddenly break out. The potential label is going to wear off very soon. There's a lot of 22-23 year old prospects who just need a shot but can't figure it out. Barnes is quickly trending towards that category.
User avatar
Reeko
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 26,451
And1: 38,694
Joined: Jan 04, 2015
Location: East side, in a deluxe apartment in the sky.
   

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#574 » by Reeko » Wed Mar 8, 2023 9:33 am

Thaddy wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Thaddy wrote:What skill did he improve?


It doesn't matter because he's 21. Development isn't linear.

Lol a down year doesn't indicate a better chance of him suddenly being way better next year either. In fact when has a player who's been the same for several years just suddenly break out. The potential label is going to wear off very soon. There's a lot of 22-23 year old prospects who just need a shot but can't figure it out. Barnes is quickly trending towards that category.

Steph Curry, Ja Morant, Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown... All of these guys broke out after a couple of pretty similar seasons and this is just off the top of my head. It happens all the time.
Clay Davis wrote:COMPOSED ONLY OF THE COOLEST WOMEN AND THE HOTTEST GUYS, THE TORONTO RAPTORS REALGM BOARD HAS LONG BEEN KNOWN FOR ITS HIGH-QUALITY DISCUSSION, PASSIONATE LOYALTY, TEMPERATE CELEBRATIONS OF VICTORY, AND GRACE IN DEFEAT.
User avatar
HumbleRen
RealGM
Posts: 18,562
And1: 25,601
Joined: Jul 02, 2021
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#575 » by HumbleRen » Wed Mar 8, 2023 11:40 am

Reeko wrote:
Thaddy wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
It doesn't matter because he's 21. Development isn't linear.

Lol a down year doesn't indicate a better chance of him suddenly being way better next year either. In fact when has a player who's been the same for several years just suddenly break out. The potential label is going to wear off very soon. There's a lot of 22-23 year old prospects who just need a shot but can't figure it out. Barnes is quickly trending towards that category.

Steph Curry, Ja Morant, Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown... All of these guys broke out after a couple of pretty similar seasons and this is just off the top of my head. It happens all the time.


Not necessarily.

Ja was averaging 40 against the Warriors in the playoffs in his 2nd year.

Curry was already one of the best shooters in the league by his 2nd year averaging like 18/5/5 on insanely efficient shooting splits.

Tatum was the #1 scoring option on a team in his rookie year that went to game 7 vs Lebron in the ECF.



I think Brown is a great comp, very raw athlete that took a couple of seasons to put everything together. Obviously we were all hoping Barnes would be a tier 1 prospect with like Ant Edwards, Tatum, Ja of the worlds but he’s just not that caliber of prospect.

I’m more than fine with having patience with Scottie but our dumb ass FO wants to win now and that makes Scottie the most likely player to be traded if they want for superstar player.
User avatar
Johnny Bball
RealGM
Posts: 54,942
And1: 59,316
Joined: Feb 01, 2015
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#576 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Mar 8, 2023 12:34 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
Tha Cynic wrote:Let's get this out of the way - Midrange and improving the handles are a key to next season for Barnes personally. After that he needs to change his mindset to more of a scorer mentality. The roster around him really isn't suited for his skill-set, so anything he can provide is a plus at this stage this season. I don't get high or low anymore as he isn't going to magically hit a bunch of jumpers for the remaining games. I like that he's starting to drive and take mid range jumpers more. Let him develop his "guard" skills. His decision making in general has gotten more passive this season and into the later stages as opposed to last season where he was more aggressive as the season went on.

But, the Raptors need to figure out their offense. They have played two seasons with this exact same team (now adding Poeltl), and no one knows what their teammate is doing or when to expect passes. That's a huge issue and something that comes back to what Nurse is doing. How does your team have zero chemistry on offense after nearly two full seasons? They need to fix this offense as a whole and they have the highest paid coach in the NBA as a supposed offensive minded coach.

Masai needs to make some roster changes going into next season. Make a decision - are you making Barnes a cornerstone or not? If not, then trade him. If yes, then trade others.


Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.

Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.


What? Every team you listed plays completely differently than those with old school centres and does not rely on and old school centre to win it all. Let's take JV as the best example currently of a quality old school centre left in the league. You're trying to tell me that Timelord, JJJ, Allen or Mobley, Sabonis and two MVPs are the same? None of them play like that. Only one of them defends like that (Jokic) and that's why they are suscepitble to being the modern version of the mid teen Raptors. And to win a title the Bucks had tfinally stop playing Lopez as much and moved GA to centre the last two rounds. No, the entire league has been trying to find that centre that allows you to play positionless and its the hardest position to fill, and it's not going to stop until they change the rules. They aren't the ones misreading the direction of the game. To win a title now you need that player.

And if you're going to argue this, please start by listing all the old school type centres drafted in the top ten in the last five years.
User avatar
HumbleRen
RealGM
Posts: 18,562
And1: 25,601
Joined: Jul 02, 2021
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#577 » by HumbleRen » Wed Mar 8, 2023 1:34 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Tha Cynic wrote:Let's get this out of the way - Midrange and improving the handles are a key to next season for Barnes personally. After that he needs to change his mindset to more of a scorer mentality. The roster around him really isn't suited for his skill-set, so anything he can provide is a plus at this stage this season. I don't get high or low anymore as he isn't going to magically hit a bunch of jumpers for the remaining games. I like that he's starting to drive and take mid range jumpers more. Let him develop his "guard" skills. His decision making in general has gotten more passive this season and into the later stages as opposed to last season where he was more aggressive as the season went on.

But, the Raptors need to figure out their offense. They have played two seasons with this exact same team (now adding Poeltl), and no one knows what their teammate is doing or when to expect passes. That's a huge issue and something that comes back to what Nurse is doing. How does your team have zero chemistry on offense after nearly two full seasons? They need to fix this offense as a whole and they have the highest paid coach in the NBA as a supposed offensive minded coach.

Masai needs to make some roster changes going into next season. Make a decision - are you making Barnes a cornerstone or not? If not, then trade him. If yes, then trade others.


Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.

Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.


What? Every team you listed plays completely differently than those with old school centres and does not rely on and old school centre to win it all. Let's take JV as the best example currently of a quality old school centre left in the league. You're trying to tell me that Timelord, JJJ, Allen or Mobley, Sabonis and two MVPs are the same? None of them play like that. Only one of them defends like that (Jokic) and that's why they are suscepitble to being the modern version of the mid teen Raptors. And to win a title the Bucks had tfinally stop playing Lopez as much and moved GA to centre the last two rounds. No, the entire league has been trying to find that centre that allows you to play positionless and its the hardest position to fill, and it's not going to stop until they change the rules. They aren't the ones misreading the direction of the game. To win a title now you need that player.

And if you're going to argue this, please start by listing all the old school type centres drafted in the top ten in the last five years.


Nah they definitely misread the direction of the game.

You spent all of last year and the off season saying we didn’t need a center which was clearly wrong. They went and got a traditional center.

Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.

Whatever the Raps were doing over the last 3 years was the opposite of being versatile, they were pigeon holing themselves with this “6’9 positionless” nonsense that people ate up.
User avatar
Johnny Bball
RealGM
Posts: 54,942
And1: 59,316
Joined: Feb 01, 2015
 

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#578 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Mar 8, 2023 2:45 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.

Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.


What? Every team you listed plays completely differently than those with old school centres and does not rely on and old school centre to win it all. Let's take JV as the best example currently of a quality old school centre left in the league. You're trying to tell me that Timelord, JJJ, Allen or Mobley, Sabonis and two MVPs are the same? None of them play like that. Only one of them defends like that (Jokic) and that's why they are suscepitble to being the modern version of the mid teen Raptors. And to win a title the Bucks had tfinally stop playing Lopez as much and moved GA to centre the last two rounds. No, the entire league has been trying to find that centre that allows you to play positionless and its the hardest position to fill, and it's not going to stop until they change the rules. They aren't the ones misreading the direction of the game. To win a title now you need that player.

And if you're going to argue this, please start by listing all the old school type centres drafted in the top ten in the last five years.


Nah they definitely misread the direction of the game.

You spent all of last year and the off season saying we didn’t need a center which was clearly wrong. They went and got a traditional center.

Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.

Whatever the Raps were doing over the last 3 years was the opposite of being versatile, they were pigeon holing themselves with this “6’9 positionless” nonsense that people ate up.


My god, you really never get any of it! Saying they are missing the direction of the game is willfully sticking your head in the ground. Wish I could state that otherwise here.

No, I spent all of last year saying we needed a different kind of centre and adding one that is a true centre will only help us beat the teams in the bottom half of the league league. (I literally said it over and over.) And it is doing just that, although once healthy we started doing that anyway somewhat.

At the deadline, first and foremost, we added DEPTH. Another starter would have helped us immensely either way. But you just ignore the fact that all of a sudden we have depth, and *derp, just centre, while complaining about the bench all year? Right.

Is Poeltl bad for that? No, he's apparently especially good for people that can't fathom that the game has changed. At leats Poeltl can defend at a high level, even if he is making spacing worse.


Your belief that they will only want 6'9" guys is nothing but pure RGM fantasy. They literally have guys that aren't that. You can't seem to grasp that what they want is long for the position, height does not matter when standing reach and wingspan matters more, speed and ability to switch and defend, and try to find higher character guys. Nnoe of that happens overnight. It's literally the reason I was able to guess they would pick Barnes. Becuase you only have to watch what they value.

And you're going to ignore the teams in the league that are moving this way and building this way, and pretend that the centre position hasn't changed and for good reason? That GSW didn't change the game forever? There are almost no old school centres left. even though they get cut at the deadline or are playing in China? Nice absolute lie.

And if you can't even do the first thing I asked. There's almost no centres drafted top ten the last five years and for good reason. Because the game changed and that player is hard to find but necessary.

HumbleRen wrote:Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.


Yeah, you need a versatile centre first and foremost. Way to validate the entire point.

But way to strive for mediocrity making the regular season more important by having to have that traditional big.

So no....They didn't misread the direction of the game.
User avatar
Reeko
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 26,451
And1: 38,694
Joined: Jan 04, 2015
Location: East side, in a deluxe apartment in the sky.
   

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#579 » by Reeko » Wed Mar 8, 2023 3:01 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
Reeko wrote:
Thaddy wrote:Lol a down year doesn't indicate a better chance of him suddenly being way better next year either. In fact when has a player who's been the same for several years just suddenly break out. The potential label is going to wear off very soon. There's a lot of 22-23 year old prospects who just need a shot but can't figure it out. Barnes is quickly trending towards that category.

Steph Curry, Ja Morant, Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown... All of these guys broke out after a couple of pretty similar seasons and this is just off the top of my head. It happens all the time.


Not necessarily.

Ja was averaging 40 against the Warriors in the playoffs in his 2nd year.

Curry was already one of the best shooters in the league by his 2nd year averaging like 18/5/5 on insanely efficient shooting splits.

Tatum was the #1 scoring option on a team in his rookie year that went to game 7 vs Lebron in the ECF.



I think Brown is a great comp, very raw athlete that took a couple of seasons to put everything together. Obviously we were all hoping Barnes would be a tier 1 prospect with like Ant Edwards, Tatum, Ja of the worlds but he’s just not that caliber of prospect.

I’m more than fine with having patience with Scottie but our dumb ass FO wants to win now and that makes Scottie the most likely player to be traded if they want for superstar player.

None of that is relevant to what I said.

During the regular season both Ja and Tatum's efficiency took hits in their 2nd seasons and their raw stats were basically the same. Curry's efficiency improved in year 2, but his raw stats were mostly the same.

Whether Scottie is the caliber of prospect as the players you mentioned remains to be seen, but the point I was making was that players do stagnate in their 2nd year and sometimes even their 3rd and go on to break out later on.
Clay Davis wrote:COMPOSED ONLY OF THE COOLEST WOMEN AND THE HOTTEST GUYS, THE TORONTO RAPTORS REALGM BOARD HAS LONG BEEN KNOWN FOR ITS HIGH-QUALITY DISCUSSION, PASSIONATE LOYALTY, TEMPERATE CELEBRATIONS OF VICTORY, AND GRACE IN DEFEAT.
User avatar
Vampirate
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,671
And1: 4,496
Joined: Dec 04, 2016
     

Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#580 » by Vampirate » Wed Mar 8, 2023 3:29 pm

Thaddy wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Thaddy wrote:Does ceiling matter when he's not even improving? Same bad handles, bad shot, and even worse defense. He was getting turned and danced on by Murray. Murray spun him around like a drunk thot and I saw Barnes on his ass a few times crying about calls.


He's a PF who was defending a PG. He's a versatile defender. That doesn't mean he can defend every position at an elite level.

IMO, we need to bench Barnes to light a fire under his ass. He needed to get his shot at league average level yesterday, it's overdue now. So hit the bench until you can figure that out.


His development of a shot is overdue, at age 21?

What skill did he improve?


I'd say passing/decision making.

On the whole last year he averaged 3.5 assists/1.8 turnovers
This year he's averaging---------------4.8 assists/2 turnovers

So either he's performing better on larger usage, or he's making better use of the same usage he got last year. This on a team that has very little to no shooting.
Image

Return to Toronto Raptors