Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[HumbleRen]

What? Every team you listed plays completely differently than those with old school centres and does not rely on and old school centre to win it all. Let's take JV as the best example currently of a quality old school centre left in the league. You're trying to tell me that Timelord, JJJ, Allen or Mobley, Sabonis and two MVPs are the same? None of them play like that. Only one of them defends like that (Jokic) and that's why they are suscepitble to being the modern version of the mid teen Raptors. And to win a title the Bucks had tfinally stop playing Lopez as much and moved GA to centre the last two rounds. No, the entire league has been trying to find that centre that allows you to play positionless and its the hardest position to fill, and it's not going to stop until they change the rules. They aren't the ones misreading the direction of the game. To win a title now you need that player.

And if you're going to argue this, please start by listing all the old school type centres drafted in the top ten in the last five years.

Nah they definitely misread the direction of the game.

You spent all of last year and the off season saying we didn’t need a center which was clearly wrong. They went and got a traditional center.

Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.

Whatever the Raps were doing over the last 3 years was the opposite of being versatile, they were pigeon holing themselves with this “6’9 positionless” nonsense that people ate up.

My god, you really never get any of it! Saying they are missing the direction of the game is willfully sticking your head in the ground. Wish I could state that otherwise here.

No, I spent all of last year saying we needed a different kind of centre and adding one that is a true centre will only help us beat the teams in the bottom half of the league league. (I literally said it over and over.) And it is doing just that, although once healthy we started doing that anyway somewhat.

At the deadline, first and foremost, we added DEPTH. Another starter would have helped us immensely either way. But you just ignore the fact that all of a sudden we have depth, and *derp, just centre, while complaining about the bench all year? Right.

Is Poeltl bad for that? No, he's apparently especially good for people that can't fathom that the game has changed. At leats Poeltl can defend at a high level, even if he is making spacing worse.


Your belief that they will only want 6'9" guys is nothing but pure RGM fantasy. They literally have guys that aren't that. You can't seem to grasp that what they want is long for the position, height does not matter when standing reach and wingspan matters more, speed and ability to switch and defend, and try to find higher character guys. Nnoe of that happens overnight. It's literally the reason I was able to guess they would pick Barnes. Becuase you only have to watch what they value.

And you're going to ignore the teams in the league that are moving this way and building this way, and pretend that the centre position hasn't changed and for good reason? That GSW didn't change the game forever? There are almost no old school centres left. even though they get cut at the deadline or are playing in China? Nice absolute lie.

And if you can't even do the first thing I asked. There's almost no centres drafted top ten the last five years and for good reason. Because the game changed and that player is hard to find but necessary.

Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.

Yeah, you need a versatile centre first and foremost. Way to validate the entire point.

But way to strive for mediocrity making the regular season more important by having to have that traditional big.

So no....They didn't misread the direction of the game.

Eh. They misread it.

It’s okay, even great FO’s become mediocre over time.

[mrdressup]

Don't forget that people were very upset when we traded Charlie Villaneuva when he was young and looked super promising. Scottie has showed me that he's closer to Precious in IQ than Someone like Lowry. His game is limited, and I doubt he'll ever be an all-star unless he shows up at some point with handles or a reliable shot. His defense is hit and miss (can be a very weak on ball defender when guarding PGs). His offense is...to be determined, but currently unreliable. Effort appears to be sporadic and that is a concern. He does show flashes. At this point his value is probably low enough that he's not worth trading. I don't like that Nurse is his coach. Ultimately that may keep him buried low in the pecking order where he will develop into a garbage man.

[ConSarnit]

Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Masai and Bobby need to look around the league and realize they miscalculated.

Memphis, Nuggets, Sixers, Celtics, Bucks, Cavs, Suns and the Kings are the top 8 teams in the league. You know what they got in common ? They’re all painfully traditional in terms of roster construction.

This happens all of the time in the Tech World, sometimes you just completely misread the direction of the industry is going in and it sets you back YEARS.

I believe this is what is happening with the FO.

The Warriors did this with a bunch of guards who could shoot. The Raptors are trying the exact opposite with a bunch of raw offensive players who are very limited.

The Warriors are a huge exception because their chemistry, offensive game plan and execution is off the charts and they have the best shooter of all time. The Raptors focus more on defense and don't coach offense. Huge difference between the two. The Raptors also don't do anything to adjust their system to take advantage of individual skills which the Warrior do a great job of.

I think where they miscalculated is trusting the players to figure this out on their own and this has lead to more individual play on offense which has seeped their defense. They also don't have enough high IQ players.

Nailed it with that last sentence. How many teams can you say are collectively stupider than ours? Houston? Maybe Detroit? That’s kind of it. I don’t think it’s talked about enough, that we have about four high IQ players in Poetl, Barnes, Thad and Dowtin Jr. The problem is that only one of those guys is a consistently good NBA player right now. That’s a problem. It’s hard to teach IQ. The lack of it lowers our ceiling.

I think IQ is a big issue for us, at least on the offensive end. We talk about fixing the offense but I don’t know if that’s possible at the moment:

-I don’t think we are smart enough for a movement system. Trent, OG, Precious, Boucher. I don’t trust any of them to make quick reads. Even FVV and Pascal are prone to pounding the air out of the ball

-this team is better fitted for an offensive hub. We have a bunch of finishers but no one to get guys easy looks

-just an overall lack of shooting hurts us too

No high end creator + lower iq players + lack of shooting = grinding it out on offense.

The hope would be Scottie could become that hub but he’ll need time (if he can ever get there). His ballhandling and shooting will have to improve. I think him not making many strides offensively this year really effected this team.

[Johnny Bball]

Nah they definitely misread the direction of the game.

You spent all of last year and the off season saying we didn’t need a center which was clearly wrong. They went and got a traditional center.

Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.

Whatever the Raps were doing over the last 3 years was the opposite of being versatile, they were pigeon holing themselves with this “6’9 positionless” nonsense that people ate up.

My god, you really never get any of it! Saying they are missing the direction of the game is willfully sticking your head in the ground. Wish I could state that otherwise here.

No, I spent all of last year saying we needed a different kind of centre and adding one that is a true centre will only help us beat the teams in the bottom half of the league league. (I literally said it over and over.) And it is doing just that, although once healthy we started doing that anyway somewhat.

At the deadline, first and foremost, we added DEPTH. Another starter would have helped us immensely either way. But you just ignore the fact that all of a sudden we have depth, and *derp, just centre, while complaining about the bench all year? Right.

Is Poeltl bad for that? No, he's apparently especially good for people that can't fathom that the game has changed. At leats Poeltl can defend at a high level, even if he is making spacing worse.


Your belief that they will only want 6'9" guys is nothing but pure RGM fantasy. They literally have guys that aren't that. You can't seem to grasp that what they want is long for the position, height does not matter when standing reach and wingspan matters more, speed and ability to switch and defend, and try to find higher character guys. Nnoe of that happens overnight. It's literally the reason I was able to guess they would pick Barnes. Becuase you only have to watch what they value.

And you're going to ignore the teams in the league that are moving this way and building this way, and pretend that the centre position hasn't changed and for good reason? That GSW didn't change the game forever? There are almost no old school centres left. even though they get cut at the deadline or are playing in China? Nice absolute lie.

And if you can't even do the first thing I asked. There's almost no centres drafted top ten the last five years and for good reason. Because the game changed and that player is hard to find but necessary.

Outside of having a top 6-7 player, the key is having a versatile roster that play a traditional and small ball line up against different type of matches.

Yeah, you need a versatile centre first and foremost. Way to validate the entire point.

But way to strive for mediocrity making the regular season more important by having to have that traditional big.

So no....They didn't misread the direction of the game.

Eh. They misread it.

It’s okay, even great FO’s become mediocre over time.

So you can't admit centres aren't drafted top ten anymore and playing small is some kind of lie. When was the last time Green won defensive player of the year? Was it their last two titles?

You can't admit all competing teams play smallball first and foremost or have a built in option? But pretend they misread it?

Then you have this gem.

Positionless basketball was the biggest lie the Warriors has brought to the game. [/u]It only worked because Draymond is the best defender of the modern nba era and they had 3 of the best shooters OAT.

Cleveland didn't play old school.

Warriors in there again with a 7 foot PF twice.

Raptors needed Ibaka to win without any doubt and Gasol playing less agaisnt the team to beat, Golden State.

LAL did not play old school.

Bucks needed Portis and GA playing centre to win it all.

Shockingly, the lie that was GSW won again.

I mean you can't keep ignoring you have to beat the best teams that play this way to win it all, right?

The consistent theme with these teams... none of them overspent in cap space at centre. They did have the option to play small, because none of them overspent at C, using other players to play small. If you need to pay two centres a big part of the cap, you can't have those other shooters. It's called prioritizing. GSW prioritized.

And finally....Who has been drafted first and second overall the last few years? Was it a long 6'8 PG? Did you sit here and and pine for a team to tank to draft a long 7' PF, regardless of if he's played? Who's going first overall this summer despite not being the most talented because he's long and athletic? Yeah, raptors misread it. Nobody is going on length.

There is data showing how guards are getting taller and centres shorter (and hence quicker) over a decade. But Raptors are misreading? Not you? Back to calling other mediocre when you just admitted you preferred they be that way? Shocking.

[Reeko]

The Warriors did this with a bunch of guards who could shoot. The Raptors are trying the exact opposite with a bunch of raw offensive players who are very limited.

The Warriors are a huge exception because their chemistry, offensive game plan and execution is off the charts and they have the best shooter of all time. The Raptors focus more on defense and don't coach offense. Huge difference between the two. The Raptors also don't do anything to adjust their system to take advantage of individual skills which the Warrior do a great job of.

I think where they miscalculated is trusting the players to figure this out on their own and this has lead to more individual play on offense which has seeped their defense. They also don't have enough high IQ players.

Nailed it with that last sentence. How many teams can you say are collectively stupider than ours? Houston? Maybe Detroit? That’s kind of it. I don’t think it’s talked about enough, that we have about four high IQ players in Poetl, Barnes, Thad and Dowtin Jr. The problem is that only one of those guys is a consistently good NBA player right now. That’s a problem. It’s hard to teach IQ. The lack of it lowers our ceiling.

I think IQ is a big issue for us, at least on the offensive end. We talk about fixing the offense but I don’t know if that’s possible at the moment:

-I don’t think we are smart enough for a movement system. Trent, OG, Precious, Boucher. I don’t trust any of them to make quick reads. Even FVV and Pascal are prone to pounding the air out of the ball

-this team is better fitted for an offensive hub. We have a bunch of finishers but no one to get guys easy looks

-just an overall lack of shooting hurts us too

No high end creator + lower iq players + lack of shooting = grinding it out on offense.

The hope would be Scottie could become that hub but he’ll need time (if he can ever get there). His ballhandling and shooting will have to improve. I think him not making many strides offensively this year really effected this team.

So we're at the point where we're comfortable laying the blame for this season being a failure at the feet of a 21 year old? An impact on the team? Sure, because him improving significantly obviously helps the team. But there are probably 3 or 4 things I could name that affected this team way more than Scottie's perceived lack of development.

[ConSarnit]

Nailed it with that last sentence. How many teams can you say are collectively stupider than ours? Houston? Maybe Detroit? That’s kind of it. I don’t think it’s talked about enough, that we have about four high IQ players in Poetl, Barnes, Thad and Dowtin Jr. The problem is that only one of those guys is a consistently good NBA player right now. That’s a problem. It’s hard to teach IQ. The lack of it lowers our ceiling.

I think IQ is a big issue for us, at least on the offensive end. We talk about fixing the offense but I don’t know if that’s possible at the moment:

-I don’t think we are smart enough for a movement system. Trent, OG, Precious, Boucher. I don’t trust any of them to make quick reads. Even FVV and Pascal are prone to pounding the air out of the ball

-this team is better fitted for an offensive hub. We have a bunch of finishers but no one to get guys easy looks

-just an overall lack of shooting hurts us too

No high end creator + lower iq players + lack of shooting = grinding it out on offense.

The hope would be Scottie could become that hub but he’ll need time (if he can ever get there). His ballhandling and shooting will have to improve. I think him not making many strides offensively this year really effected this team.

So we're at the point where we're comfortable laying the blame for this season being a failure at the feet of a 21 year old? An impact on the team? Sure, because him improving significantly obviously helps the team. But there are probably 3 or 4 things I could name that affected this team way more than Scottie's perceived lack of development.

No, it’s not fair to put the blame on him (though I’m not really sure how much he actually improved from last year). But as far as this current team goes ceiling-wise it’s pretty much gonna come down to him.

In the perfect version of this team it’s Scottie as a lead wing creator. He’s not there yet (unrealistic to think he should be at 21), but there was a hope he could take on more this year.

It’s clear what this team needs and he’s the only guy with the potential to provide it. It might not be fair but when you’re the “next great hope” the pressure is going to be on.

There is plenty of blame to go around imo.

[ItsDanger]

Assumption: Keep Siakam/Barnes.

If so, the ideal C is a 3 pt shooter or a low post scorer with some scoring versatility. Poeltl is neither. This wouldn't hurt as much if Siakam/Barnes were average to plus 3 pt shooters. That may never happen. I'll always see them as highly erratic perimeter shooters. Now, they're stuck with this trio after the trade and trying to improve half court offense with these 3 is difficult.

[HumbleRen]

Assumption: Keep Siakam/Barnes.

If so, the ideal C is a 3 pt shooter or a low post scorer with some scoring versatility. Poeltl is neither. This wouldn't hurt as much if Siakam/Barnes were average to plus 3 pt shooters. That may never happen. I'll always see them as highly erratic perimeter shooters. Now, they're stuck with this trio after the trade and trying to improve half court offense with these 3 is difficult.

The answer is pretty obvious on what they should do but it’s clear that the FO has lost the plot.

[Indeed]

Assumption: Keep Siakam/Barnes.

If so, the ideal C is a 3 pt shooter or a low post scorer with some scoring versatility. Poeltl is neither. This wouldn't hurt as much if Siakam/Barnes were average to plus 3 pt shooters. That may never happen. I'll always see them as highly erratic perimeter shooters. Now, they're stuck with this trio after the trade and trying to improve half court offense with these 3 is difficult.

Siakam has been average at shooting the 3s, close to 40% from the corners.

The problem has been Barnes being raw even he took some big improvement over the year. He is not yet a starter level, and causing games (e.g. Denver game on defense). Hopefully next year.

Poeltl couldn't shoot free throw was an issue of the last Denver game as well.

[Clay Davis]

Was the best player for the closing minutes in a game with four all-stars, a Finals MVP, and two former MVP candidates on the floor.

[superddracing]

Tony Delk also scored 53pts against C-webb led kings, just saying lol.

[Madvillainy2004]

Was the best player for the closing minutes in a game with four all-stars, a Finals MVP, and two former MVP candidates on the floor.

He was also pretty terrible for the first 44 minutes of that game

[Thaddy]

What improvements has Barnes made towards his game since last season?

[Madvillainy2004]

What improvements has Barnes made towards his game since last season?

His passing and thats literally it tbh lol

[Thaddy]

What improvements has Barnes made towards his game since last season?

His passing and thats literally it tbh lol

His efficiency rating went down, 2P% went way down, and his shooting is still bad. He looks worse on defense with the several blow bys he allows. I'd say he's regressed more than improved.

[DelAbbot]

Watch on YouTube

[Tha Cynic]

What improvements has Barnes made towards his game since last season?

His passing and thats literally it tbh lol

His efficiency rating went down, 2P% went way down, and his shooting is still bad. He looks worse on defense with the several blow bys he allows. I'd say he's regressed more than improved.

Cool, but as a fan of the Toronto Raptors, some of us will look at the flashes he shows, the fact that development can happen and hope for that to happen in the offseason and into next season.

For now, glad to see him trying new moves he hasn't tried before and more midrange oriented moves.

We can either sit here and keep finding ways to pin point how a raw player continues to be raw, or we can try to find areas where we see things he can improve and get better.

I think you two have chosen your path, and others have chosen theirs.

Beyond that, the outlook is pretty terrible for this team.

[AbC?]

The expectations on Barnes are unfair. On any random rebuilding team he'd be considered just a solid young player but not a franchise caliber guy. Instead he's on the Raptors who are devoid of any hope outside of his development, they need him to become a legit #1 or #2 or the team is doomed lol.

He looks like a good connector-type piece, maybe a premium Kyle Anderson or Boris Diaw.

[Sidthekid87]

Pick a direction this offseason. Scottie or Siakam. They both are 100% PFs and it's hurting both of them that they play together. It's the elephant in the room but they're not gonna succeed with 6'9 post scorer who can't shoot at the 2 spot. Trade Siakam for a bucket getting SG in the offseason and do this **** the right way.

[Chandan]

No, it’s not fair to put the blame on him (though I’m not really sure how much he actually improved from last year). But as far as this current team goes ceiling-wise it’s pretty much gonna come down to him.

i blame the FO for putting us in this position though.