2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
I do agree there were some trades that slipped through their fingers like Chris Paul. That should have been done. Under the radar deals could have been done for Reddish and Hachimura that would have really helped this team this season.
And to not forget, GMs haven't valued Herro in trades like the Heat were hoping.
And to not forget, GMs haven't valued Herro in trades like the Heat were hoping.
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
twix2500 wrote:AirP you have to understand. The Heat didn't have a good hand of trade chips because the Heat went all in to build around Bosh and traded for Dragic. They had to create trade chips from within and take chances on rehabbing players and hope they can become trade chips. They failed to get Paul, Westbrook and Harden to be a third star. That's where they failed at, finding that other star. Role players the Heat done an incredible job surrounding Butler.
I get that but they've also used their 1st round draft picks twice since the Bubble run. With Precious they picked a player to backup Bam and this year they kept their pick and took Jovic that neither helped Miami, even if Precious was used or a trade for a past his prime player (Miami really backed themselves in a corner with that 2021 plan).
One of the things I saw and really liked about the Heat before Butler got here was the understanding that lower 1st round picks rarely work out unless someone you really like fell through the cracks so use those picks to get good players and usually core players for the team.
The only incredible job the FO did surrounding Butler was an incredibly cheap job and wasted assets during that time.
What the 2021 plan did before they gave it up when Giannis announced he was signing the super max(which was a no brainer)
* They didn't trade for CP3 in 2019, asked him to decline his 2021 player option and he said no of course.
* Miami let a starting Finals PF in Crowder walk for nothing the next season.
* They extended Bam a year early taking away a ton of money for free agents.
* No longer having the cap space the next summer, they overpay Dragic for a tradable expiring (good move since they extended Bam).
* They tried to trade for Lowry at the deadline, it didn't work.
* They traded for Lowry which cost them Dragic and their most recent 1st round pick.
If Miami had just waited 1 year before extending Bam on the max, they wouldn't have had to overpay Dragic, would have had enough money to outright sign Lowry as a FA and would have retained Precious for depth or a trade piece. This is just the 2021 plan which made Miami basically freeze their roster after acquiring Butler for nearly 2 years handcuffing themselves to not acquiring any contracts that went into or past 2021.
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
twix2500 wrote:I do agree there were some trades that slipped through their fingers like Chris Paul. That should have been done. Under the radar deals could have been done for Reddish and Hachimura that would have really helped this team this season.
And to not forget, GMs haven't valued Herro in trades like the Heat were hoping.
I get both of those but when we hear that some of the decision makers in the Miami organization talk about Herro and think better then Booker or giving Duncan 50 mil over 5 years it makes me really wonder about their decision making.
The Heat FO has done some nice moves, like when they overpaid Dragic to have a moveable contract or the Memphis trade although they wanted Gallo but the 2021 plan stopped that since he wanted an extension.
I still don't get letting Nunn walk for nothing, he was good enough to be a decent scoring 6th man and ok spot starter for the way Miami utilized him.
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
twix2500 wrote:I do agree there were some trades that slipped through their fingers like Chris Paul. That should have been done. Under the radar deals could have been done for Reddish and Hachimura that would have really helped this team this season.
And to not forget, GMs haven't valued Herro in trades like the Heat were hoping.
These are all normal occurrences that happen with every team though, to some degree. Here however,we draw up an "If" for every scenario. If we had waited, if we had done this, if we had done that, etc. Well if every team had the benefit of hindsight nobody would ever be wrong. Even down to the Bam extension, you get criticized for letting a franchise cornerstone walk and then when you attempt to actually take care of one your guys "if they would have waited a year.." cmon.
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
twix2500 wrote:A lot of things failed in the Heat this season. Heat brought this team back to be traded chips. And only Martin has lived up to that hopes. Yurt, Jovic, Duncan, Strus, Vincent, Lowry, Dedmon all underachieved to being valuable trade chips plus the unexpected usages of draft picks in trades kept Heat out if the trade market.
I expected last offseason to be the big moving and shaking season when it wasn't I decided not to post in the season predictions thread, people were going to hate my record prediction.
I still wonder what last season would have looked like had Miami been smart enough to add a backup PF for their aging starting PF, adding Rui or PJ Washington for a 1st may have gotten Miami to the finals. It was another highly disappointing non-move at last year's deadline and another data point that this FO was not trying to win with Butler but were fixated on the next era.
Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
Solid article in the Ringer:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/3/10/23633235/miami-heat-ice-cold-offense
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/3/10/23633235/miami-heat-ice-cold-offense

I remember 11-30 with these guys. ^
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
gom wrote:Solid article in the Ringer:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/3/10/23633235/miami-heat-ice-cold-offense
Really good read, and a point some of have been making on this board
With that trio, the Heat have three qualified players averaging at least 20 points per game; the Trail Blazers, who rank seventh on offense, are the only other team that can make that claim.
But even amid those solid performances, the Heat expose the limits of building a team around two non-shooters in the modern NBA. This isn’t a new point, but it’s worth revisiting because the numbers are just so extreme. Out of 56 total players averaging at least 20 points per game this season, Butler ranks 52nd in 3-pointers per game while Adebayo ranks 56th.
Taken together, Butler and Adebayo combine for just 0.5 made 3s per game. The top two scorers on every other team combine for at least 1.8 triples per game; the average team is up around 4.5. Winning that way isn’t impossible, but it forces a team to navigate a very narrow path.
+ shooting numbers down across the board for the role guys, with the biggest offenders being Strus, Vincent, Robinson and Lowry. Herro and Martin have both dipped but still shoot above 37%
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AirP. wrote:twix2500 wrote:AirP you have to understand. The Heat didn't have a good hand of trade chips because the Heat went all in to build around Bosh and traded for Dragic. They had to create trade chips from within and take chances on rehabbing players and hope they can become trade chips. They failed to get Paul, Westbrook and Harden to be a third star. That's where they failed at, finding that other star. Role players the Heat done an incredible job surrounding Butler.
I get that but they've also used their 1st round draft picks twice since the Bubble run. With Precious they picked a player to backup Bam and this year they kept their pick and took Jovic that neither helped Miami, even if Precious was used or a trade for a past his prime player (Miami really backed themselves in a corner with that 2021 plan).
One of the things I saw and really liked about the Heat before Butler got here was the understanding that lower 1st round picks rarely work out unless someone you really like fell through the cracks so use those picks to get good players and usually core players for the team.
The only incredible job the FO did surrounding Butler was an incredibly cheap job and wasted assets during that time.
What the 2021 plan did before they gave it up when Giannis announced he was signing the super max(which was a no brainer)
* They didn't trade for CP3 in 2019, asked him to decline his 2021 player option and he said no of course.
* Miami let a starting Finals PF in Crowder walk for nothing the next season.
* They extended Bam a year early taking away a ton of money for free agents.
* No longer having the cap space the next summer, they overpay Dragic for a tradable expiring (good move since they extended Bam).
* They tried to trade for Lowry at the deadline, it didn't work.
* They traded for Lowry which cost them Dragic and their most recent 1st round pick.
If Miami had just waited 1 year before extending Bam on the max, they wouldn't have had to overpay Dragic, would have had enough money to outright sign Lowry as a FA and would have retained Precious for depth or a trade piece. This is just the 2021 plan which made Miami basically freeze their roster after acquiring Butler for nearly 2 years handcuffing themselves to not acquiring any contracts that went into or past 2021.
Yes I agree Miami made mistakes and miscalculations. There are things I would of done differently. Nothing wrong with pointing out some adjustments. But you can't say the Heat have done nothing when they got him to a finals, breaking records in treys. Then last yr leading the east and was a miss 3 pointer falling from taking Butler to the finals twice in 3 yrs. I know it sucks to see the Heat were so close.
It is what it is, the Heat are not building around Butler anymore. Their likely thinking is they want to put Butler on a maintenance plan which would make Butler less impactful doing the regular season. Caleb is the perfect role player to allow to replace Butler during those gaps. And if they want to rest Butler then they definitely need another star who can carry them in the regular season. Bam and Herro are just not good enough yet to carry a team. Bam is in the middle of his evolution and Herro who iv always felt he was close to his ceiling, but he hasn't grown into a player who can carry a team.
Heat are holding fast to be ready for another star.
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Kobewade11 wrote:gom wrote:Solid article in the Ringer:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/3/10/23633235/miami-heat-ice-cold-offense
Really good read, and a point some of have been making on this boardWith that trio, the Heat have three qualified players averaging at least 20 points per game; the Trail Blazers, who rank seventh on offense, are the only other team that can make that claim.
But even amid those solid performances, the Heat expose the limits of building a team around two non-shooters in the modern NBA. This isn’t a new point, but it’s worth revisiting because the numbers are just so extreme. Out of 56 total players averaging at least 20 points per game this season, Butler ranks 52nd in 3-pointers per game while Adebayo ranks 56th.
Taken together, Butler and Adebayo combine for just 0.5 made 3s per game. The top two scorers on every other team combine for at least 1.8 triples per game; the average team is up around 4.5. Winning that way isn’t impossible, but it forces a team to navigate a very narrow path.
+ shooting numbers down across the board for the role guys, with the biggest offenders being Strus, Vincent, Robinson and Lowry. Herro and Martin have both dipped but still shoot above 37%
I disagree with this notion you can't build a title team around Bam and Butler because they are not 3 point shooters. Prior to this year, the problem was Bam was a rolling big not a go-too scorer. Simply if Bam was the immature go-too scorer he is now they are in the finals easily over the beloved three point shooting Tatum twice. Would of beaten Bucks twice, and may have won the title against the Lakers.
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twix2500 wrote:
I disagree with this notion you can't build a title team around Bam and Butler because they are not 3 point shooters. Prior to this year, the problem was Bam was a rolling big not a go-too scorer. Simply if Bam was the immature go-too scorer he is now they are in the finals easily over the beloved three point shooting Tatum twice.
To be fair, the writer didn't say you can't build a title team around Bam and Butler because they are not 3 point shooters. They are just pointing out the obvious limitations. Based on the graphic the average teams are getting 4 3 pointers made from their top 2 guys. That means even when the role guys are off, they're banking at least 12 points a night from their stars - in comparison we are getting 0, on average. If Bam had been more aggressive every game could we have beaten Boston? I think we would have had a much better chance for sure. But as it stands, in a series in which Boston made 10 more 3 pointers we lost a game 7 by a missed shot.
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
Kobewade11 wrote:gom wrote:Solid article in the Ringer:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/3/10/23633235/miami-heat-ice-cold-offense
Really good read, and a point some of have been making on this boardWith that trio, the Heat have three qualified players averaging at least 20 points per game; the Trail Blazers, who rank seventh on offense, are the only other team that can make that claim.
But even amid those solid performances, the Heat expose the limits of building a team around two non-shooters in the modern NBA. This isn’t a new point, but it’s worth revisiting because the numbers are just so extreme. Out of 56 total players averaging at least 20 points per game this season, Butler ranks 52nd in 3-pointers per game while Adebayo ranks 56th.
Taken together, Butler and Adebayo combine for just 0.5 made 3s per game. The top two scorers on every other team combine for at least 1.8 triples per game; the average team is up around 4.5. Winning that way isn’t impossible, but it forces a team to navigate a very narrow path.Spoiler:
I get the lack of 3pt shooting from the main guys, but in reality all the 3pt shot means is efficient offense which is what Butler and Bam give Miami. The question needs to be, why are the 3pt shooters missing shots, open shots.
3pt shooting
Open is 4-6 feet from a defender
Wide Open is 6+
Code: Select all
Player, Open 3%, wide open 3% - () denotes attempts per game
Strus (3.4) 35.4%, (2.0) 41%
Herro (4.0) 32.7%, (2.2) 46.2%
Robinson (2.3) 40.3%, (1.2) 30%
Vincent (2.3) 31.7%, (2.4) 32.8%
Lowry (3.2) 37.9%, (2.1) 30.4%
The big issue on Lowry is the fit next to Herro. Herro is trying to be a playmaker a lot of the game instead of being a catch and shoot 3pt shooter which is the role he replaced from Duncan/Strus in the starting lineup. Obviously, Miami has given Herro that role so the only fix is probably the issue with Lowry and Miami... to utilize him as a small SG which is probably not what he was told when Miami tried to acquire him in FA/S&T nor how he was used his first season. This is why I keep bringing up Lowry's stats when Herro is out of the lineup, Lowry gets the ball more and has a more ready catch and shoot player next to him.
In theory, Strus is a better overall player than Robinson but if Strus isn't hitting his 3s and Robinson somewhat is(and is under contract for 3 more years), maybe Miami needs to go with the more consistent 3pt shooter. If nothing else, possibly losing his spot in the rotation to Robinson could light a fire under him to work more on his 3pt shot on a daily basis.
Also, some of those wide open 3s are end of the shot clock rushed long shots. I know I've seen Lowry get the pass with a couple of seconds left and hae to chuck a long but open 3. Lowry's problem in this current offense is he's not looking for his shot in the flow of the offense, he's still looking to pass.
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
Kobewade11 wrote:twix2500 wrote:
I disagree with this notion you can't build a title team around Bam and Butler because they are not 3 point shooters. Prior to this year, the problem was Bam was a rolling big not a go-too scorer. Simply if Bam was the immature go-too scorer he is now they are in the finals easily over the beloved three point shooting Tatum twice.
To be fair, the writer didn't say you can't build a title team around Bam and Butler because they are not 3 point shooters. They are just pointing out the obvious limitations. Based on the graphic the average teams are getting 4 3 pointers made from their top 2 guys. That means even when the role guys are off, they're banking at least 12 points a night from their stars - in comparison we are getting 0, on average. If Bam had been more aggressive every game could we have beaten Boston? I think we would have had a much better chance for sure. But as it stands, in a series in which Boston made 10 more 3 pointers we lost a game 7 by a missed shot.
Thats fine most star players have their limitations. There are only 2 stars that can pick up the load in almost every category if the role players fails and that's Durant and Lebron. You can add Kawhi from 5 yrs ago. But that is why they are heralded as the greatest of the greats.
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I don't understand why people want to make it soo hard to build around Butler. But complete silence when it come to Luka and Harden. Its not easy to find the right complementary role players to fit your star, because its unique to that star and there are limited role players that fits that role.
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twix2500 wrote:I don't understand why people want to make it soo hard to build around Butler. But complete silence when it come to Luka and Harden
Why would we want to talk about Luka and Harden?

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Kobewade11 wrote:twix2500 wrote:I don't understand why people want to make it soo hard to build around Butler. But complete silence when it come to Luka and Harden
Why would we want to talk about Luka and Harden?I think someone like a Paul George, or someone with a comparable skillset is an ideal pairing for Jimmy - if we are discussing pie in the sky scenarios.

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twix2500 wrote:the claim is its easier to build around 3 pt shooters. Yet Luka teams constantly sucks.
Luke is one guy. It would probably be easier to build around a core of either Luka/Bam, Luka/Jimmy than the 2 of them together. But at this point we’re just going down a rabbit hole. Maybe the role guys will find a way to play above their averages and we’ll overcome this. We’ll see
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
Luka had the Unicorn and they couldn't figure it out.Kobewade11 wrote:twix2500 wrote:the claim is its easier to build around 3 pt shooters. Yet Luka teams constantly sucks.
Luke is one guy. It would probably be easier to build around a core of either Luka/Bam, Luka/Jimmy than the 2 of them together. But at this point we’re just going down a rabbit hole. Maybe the role guys will find a way to play above their averages and we’ll overcome this. We’ll see
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Re: 2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition
twix2500 wrote:I don't understand why people want to make it soo hard to build around Butler. But complete silence when it come to Luka and Harden. Its not easy to find the right complementary role players to fit your star, because its unique to that star and there are limited role players that fits that role.
There's been a lot of national media in podcasts talking about Dallas having issues building around Luka. Dallas is getting a lot of )#$) for what they've done with Luka to the point where they're somewhat wondering if he'll leave after this next contract.
Houston was built around Harden, they went so far in they moved Capela in a package for Covington to add even more shooting. They tried CP3 in an incredibly creative trade with the Clippers.
Building around Butler and Bam isn't hard, just add solid or better 2-way players to them and let them go, of course the better 2 way players the better the team. The current defense is good but it could be special with less bad defenders in the rotation.
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twix2500 wrote:Luka had the Unicorn and they couldn't figure it out.
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Did the Unicorn “figure it out” on any team he’s been on or did I miss that?
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