Peak: Larry Bird vs Kevin Durant - who you got?

[rim213221]

In a peak v peak comparison of the likely 2nd and 3rd greatest SF’s all time, who is the better player? Most assume peak Bird is mid 80’s with 3 consecutive MVP’s and peak Durant is late 10’s with monster Finals stats and consecutive Finals MVPs.

Peak: Larry Bird vs Kevin Durant - who you got?

[rk2023]

Pretty comfortably Bird. I would give Durant the advantages when it comes to scoring and rim protection.. but prefer Bird across the board as it comes to a basketball player. While Durant may be the best plug-and-play scorer into any system (I lean Nowitzki in this particular attribute), I view Bird as the ultimate plug-and-play offensive talent - when looking at their relative eras and skillset/impact.

Like Durant, Bird had an amazing ability to play both forward positions. Playing more of a "4" role better suited Bird on defense and gave him more value as an outlier spacer and shooter, likely benefitting offense - whereas playing the "3" position enabled more of a defensive slant with the Celtics roster. Regardless of position at a given time, Bird was very selfless with his off-ball acumen, rebounding value, and hyper-quick decision making. His turnover economy and touch economy as a playmaker / semi-facilitator (the latter noticeable on film rather than a stat sheet) led to some remarkable offensive results for the 1986 Celtics looking at peak season performance.

[dygaction]

Bird is a better playmaker and leader, everything else should go to Durant.

[Cavsfansince84]

Bird is a better playmaker and leader, everything else should go to Durant.

Rebounder too. I mean Bird is close to the goat rebounder at the 3 and still very good at the 4. I wouldn't say there is much of a shooting gap either except KD is slightly better as a face up shooter off the dribble.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Bird in 84 and 86 (and probably 85) reached a level that Durant hasn't attained.

Bird's Peaks in the following metrics:

Backpicks BPM-9.3

BPM-10.3

Societal Impact (s0ciety's metric)-6.9 (Numbers for games that go to the Championship)

Pelton's Rating (Goes Up Through 2018 Season PS)-8.5

3-year PIPM-16th All-time


Durant's Peaks in the following metrics:

Backpicks BPM-8.7

BPM-10

Societal Impact (s0ciety's metric)-6.7

Pelton's Rating-6.8

3-year PIPM-18th All-time

*PIPM ranks are from Thinking Basketball Greatest Peak Series

Bird looks to have reached higher highs in the PS than Durant and I would also say his work in the RS would further add on to the idea he peaked higher. I believe it is also possible that the gap between Bird and Durant could be understated. Durant's traits such as high-volume scoring, high-efficiency, and blocked shots are perhaps better accounted for in these metrics than Bird's consistent off-ball movement, hockey-assist passing, and positionally sound defense to contest shots (but not ending up with a steal or block).

[No-more-rings]

Bird pretty comfortably imo, and if you think this is a good comparison you probably don’t realize how great Bird was between that 84-87 ish period.

[Colbinii]

Bird pretty comfortably imo, and if you think this is a good comparison you probably don’t realize how great Bird was between that 84-87 ish period.

Someone can know/realize how good Bird was and still think this is a good comparison. Not everyone needs to think like you.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Bird pretty comfortably imo, and if you think this is a good comparison you probably don’t realize how great Bird was between that 84-87 ish period.

Someone can know/realize how good Bird was and still think this is a good comparison. Not everyone needs to think like you.

Don’t neccessarily agree with the majority but that’s randomly hostile lol

[1993Playoffs]

Pickem or Bird slightly.

KD significantly better scorer and better defensive peak

Bird significantly better passer and rebounder

[No-more-rings]

Bird pretty comfortably imo, and if you think this is a good comparison you probably don’t realize how great Bird was between that 84-87 ish period.

Someone can know/realize how good Bird was and still think this is a good comparison. Not everyone needs to think like you.

I didn’t say everyone has to agree with me, that obviously will never happen. I’m still allowed to question if someone is giving a player proper due.

[Colbinii]

Bird pretty comfortably imo, and if you think this is a good comparison you probably don’t realize how great Bird was between that 84-87 ish period.

Someone can know/realize how good Bird was and still think this is a good comparison. Not everyone needs to think like you.

Don’t neccessarily agree with the majority but that’s randomly hostile lol

It isn't intended to be hostile. NoMoreRings said "If you think it is a good comparison then you don't know something". That's not really productive to conversation about who is better. Instead, he is saying "If you don't think Bird is better [like I do] then you don't know how good Bird was ."

The fact is, Bird was not an ATG playoff scorer and he played on relatively loaded teams in terms of talent. If you value playoff scoring/resiliency and believe Durant's defense was better, then the argument can be made for Durant.

[Colbinii]

Bird is a better playmaker and leader, everything else should go to Durant.

I have Bird as a better offensive player and defensive player.

[csh 19792001]

Pretty comfortably Bird.

I would agree with this.

Over a 9 year stretch, Larry Bird won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times, 3rd once and 4th once. Sheer dominance.

MVP Finish Placing By Year:
Larry Bird: 88 (2nd), 87 (3rd), 86 (1st), 85 (1st), 84 (1st), 83 (2nd), 82 (2nd), 81 (2nd), 80 (4th) = 9 Top 5s, (3 MVPs) (4 2nd places)

Durant's Prime:
Durant: 10 (2), 11 (5), 12 (2), 13 (2), 14 (1), 15 (not in top 12), 16 (5), 17 (9), 18 (7th), 19 (8th), 20 (not in top 12), 21 (not in top 12), 22 (10th) = 6 Top 5s, (1 MVP), (3 2nd places)

However, Durant has played in a deeper/tougher NBA than Bird did, quite arguably. But even after accounting for that, Bird's 9 year stretch before his back went bad stacks up against basically everyone in NBA history on quality.

[trex_8063]

I think I'd have to go with Bird, but the margin is not big.

Durant is a better scorer (and by a very comfortable margin, imo). But that might be the only thing he's better at.

Bird is a much better passer/playmaker (somewhat like comparing LeBron to Durant in that regard), and at least a little better rebounder, too. I like his personality/leadership intangibles at least a little better, too.

Defense I suppose could be close, depending on exactly which years you go with for their respective peaks. e.g. '87 Bird or '88 Bird vs '17 Durant probably goes easily to Durant; but '86 Bird vs '14 Durant, otoh, goes easily to Bird, imo. '86 Bird vs '17 Durant on defense....I still probably go Bird, but it's not a big margin, imo.

[capfan33]

Someone can know/realize how good Bird was and still think this is a good comparison. Not everyone needs to think like you.

Don’t neccessarily agree with the majority but that’s randomly hostile lol

It isn't intended to be hostile. NoMoreRings said "If you think it is a good comparison then you don't know something". That's not really productive to conversation about who is better. Instead, he is saying "If you don't think Bird is better [like I do] then you don't know how good Bird was ."

The fact is, Bird was not an ATG playoff scorer and he played on relatively loaded teams in terms of talent. If you value playoff scoring/resiliency and believe Durant's defense was better, then the argument can be made for Durant.

Except that Durant's scoring resiliency was terrible in OKC and he had an even more loaded team in GS and Bird's was actually quite good during 84-86. Yea there are some caveats, with the Thunder's lacking offensive talent at times and excusing Bird's bar fight, but peak for peak I don't think there's much of a gap at all. They both had pretty notable limitations in the playoffs.

[capfan33]

Someone can know/realize how good Bird was and still think this is a good comparison. Not everyone needs to think like you.

Don’t neccessarily agree with the majority but that’s randomly hostile lol

It isn't intended to be hostile. NoMoreRings said "If you think it is a good comparison then you don't know something". That's not really productive to conversation about who is better. Instead, he is saying "If you don't think Bird is better [like I do] then you don't know how good Bird was ."

The fact is, Bird was not an ATG playoff scorer and he played on relatively loaded teams in terms of talent. If you value playoff scoring/resiliency and believe Durant's defense was better, then the argument can be made for Durant.

Except that Durant's scoring resiliency was terrible in OKC and he had an even more loaded team in GS and Bird's was actually quite good during 84-86. Yea there are some caveats, with the Thunder's lacking offensive talent at times and excusing Bird's bar fight, but peak for peak I don't think there's much of a gap at all. They both had pretty notable limitations in the playoffs.

[rk2023]

Don’t neccessarily agree with the majority but that’s randomly hostile lol

It isn't intended to be hostile. NoMoreRings said "If you think it is a good comparison then you don't know something". That's not really productive to conversation about who is better. Instead, he is saying "If you don't think Bird is better [like I do] then you don't know how good Bird was ."

The fact is, Bird was not an ATG playoff scorer and he played on relatively loaded teams in terms of talent. If you value playoff scoring/resiliency and believe Durant's defense was better, then the argument can be made for Durant.

Except that Durant's scoring resiliency was terrible in OKC and he had an even more loaded team in GS and Bird's was actually quite good during 84-86. Yea there are some caveats, with the Thunder's lacking offensive talent at times and excusing Bird's bar fight, but peak for peak I don't think there's much of a gap at all. They both had pretty notable limitations in the playoffs.

And to add.. in 1987 and 88 before his bone spur injury, Bird was a lights-out scorer! While being the best passer on his team and not having a system / other ATG perimeter creator serving as aid, some of his numbers those two years very much pop out and manifest themselves in how good the 1987/88 C's offense was while the roster was somewhat hampered within this span.

[Colbinii]

Don’t neccessarily agree with the majority but that’s randomly hostile lol

It isn't intended to be hostile. NoMoreRings said "If you think it is a good comparison then you don't know something". That's not really productive to conversation about who is better. Instead, he is saying "If you don't think Bird is better [like I do] then you don't know how good Bird was ."

The fact is, Bird was not an ATG playoff scorer and he played on relatively loaded teams in terms of talent. If you value playoff scoring/resiliency and believe Durant's defense was better, then the argument can be made for Durant.

Except that Durant's scoring resiliency was terrible in OKC and he had an even more loaded team in GS and Bird's was actually quite good during 84-86. Yea there are some caveats, with the Thunder's lacking offensive talent at times and excusing Bird's bar fight, but peak for peak I don't think there's much of a gap at all. They both had pretty notable limitations in the playoffs.

First off, this is about Peaks, and I think it is fair to say Durant peaked in 2017 as a scorer playing with a team where spacing was a premium. Related to this, the OKC thunder had god awful spacing, and in stating "The 2017 Warriors were loaded" then it is also to fair acknowledge just how poorly the spacing was around Durant during a majority of his time in Oklahoma City.

Furthermore, Durant was terrific scoring the ball in the 2021 post-season, scoring a blistering 34 PPG on 64 TS%.

Now, going back to his OKC days, while his efficiency wasn't great, he went against some ATG defenses with sub-par help. His 2013 series against Memphis [A 100.3 Drtg with Peak Tony Allen on the perimeter] when Durant didn't have Russell Westbrook while Kevin Martin or "14 MPG Reggie Jackson" was the teams second best offensive player. The 2014 series against the Spurs [102.4 Drtg] with KD posting 26 PPG on 56 TS% [against a Top 3 defense on the year] is terrific.

Then we have Bird, who in 1985 was playing with Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge and Cedric Maxwell--and may I remind you all these players were relatively within their primes [Ages 25-31]. 1986 is a similar story, with 6th man Walton [a very savvy player] in place of Maxwell [but really, the balance of 5 starters all averaging > 15 PPG is unheard of in the NBA].

But hey, let's make the claim Durant's scoring efficiency was horrible, without acknowledging the surrounding teammates [and missing teammates like 2013] while ignoring the perfect setting Bird was operating in. Perfect.

[Colbinii]

It isn't intended to be hostile. NoMoreRings said "If you think it is a good comparison then you don't know something". That's not really productive to conversation about who is better. Instead, he is saying "If you don't think Bird is better [like I do] then you don't know how good Bird was ."

The fact is, Bird was not an ATG playoff scorer and he played on relatively loaded teams in terms of talent. If you value playoff scoring/resiliency and believe Durant's defense was better, then the argument can be made for Durant.

Except that Durant's scoring resiliency was terrible in OKC and he had an even more loaded team in GS and Bird's was actually quite good during 84-86. Yea there are some caveats, with the Thunder's lacking offensive talent at times and excusing Bird's bar fight, but peak for peak I don't think there's much of a gap at all. They both had pretty notable limitations in the playoffs.

And to add.. in 1987 and 88 before his bone spur injury, Bird was a lights-out scorer! While being the best passer on his team and not having a system / other ATG perimeter creator serving as aid, some of his numbers those two years very much pop out and manifest themselves in how good the 1987/88 C's offense was while the roster was somewhat hampered within this span.

The 1997 and 1988 rosters are similar to 1985 and 1986. What are you talking about?

[rk2023]

Except that Durant's scoring resiliency was terrible in OKC and he had an even more loaded team in GS and Bird's was actually quite good during 84-86. Yea there are some caveats, with the Thunder's lacking offensive talent at times and excusing Bird's bar fight, but peak for peak I don't think there's much of a gap at all. They both had pretty notable limitations in the playoffs.

And to add.. in 1987 and 88 before his bone spur injury, Bird was a lights-out scorer! While being the best passer on his team and not having a system / other ATG perimeter creator serving as aid, some of his numbers those two years very much pop out and manifest themselves in how good the 1987/88 C's offense was while the roster was somewhat hampered within this span.

The 1997 and 1988 rosters are similar to 1985 and 1986. What are you talking about?

Was just adding on.. McHale was injured during this span as well. He played through a foot injury in 1987 and missed more time than usual nursing it in 1988.

See Below:

Spoiler:

https://fadeawayworld.net/kevin-mchale-unbelievably-played-77-of-82-games-despite-having-a-fractured-foot-in-1987

Bird Stats sans McHale:

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

I cited 1987/88, as I see those as Birds' offensive peak - where the 88 RS Celtics had the best offense of the era along with the 1983 Nuggets..

From Ben Taylor's Larry Profile:

And in 1986, McHale missed 14 games and the team played at a 61-win pace (7.3 SRS) without him.

Meanwhile, Boston’s offense improved, commensurate with Bird’s individual growth. The ’85 and ’86 teams were just under 5 points better than league average offensively.9 In ’87 and ’88, Boston posted a staggering +7.3 rORtg in 148 games with Bird and McHale. Bird was the cornerstone of two of the 25-best offenses in league history, including the 1988 squad, the best of all time to that point, surpassing even the ’87 Lakers in regular season efficiency. Boston’s true shooting percentage was 58.8 percent that year, a record that would stand until the 2016 Warriors shot 59 percent in their 73-win season.