Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[HumbleRen]

Are you saying that Barnes has not shown an ability to score at 3 levels lol?

Correct.

By this logic Banchero is not a 3 level scorer either.

Currently right now ? Nope, Banchero isn't.

[Tha Cynic]

Correct.

By this logic Banchero is not a 3 level scorer either.

Currently right now ? Nope, Banchero isn't.

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

[DemHeavyHands]

By this logic Banchero is not a 3 level scorer either.

Currently right now ? Nope, Banchero isn't.

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

Bruh he’s trolling us

Mfer is bored on a Saturday morning

[HumbleRen]

By this logic Banchero is not a 3 level scorer either.

Currently right now ? Nope, Banchero isn't.

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

Beats me man, you're the one coming up with horrible comps lol.

All I've said is if the FO was adamant on building around Siakam they should of just drafted Wagner because they're stunting Scottie's growth with our current roster.

You and I both know Scottie won't be able to tap into his full potential as long as Siakam plays on this team.

[Tha Cynic]

Currently right now ? Nope, Banchero isn't.

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

Beats me man, you're the one coming up with horrible comps lol.

All I've said is if the FO was adamant on building around Siakam they should of just drafted Wagner because they're stunting Scottie's growth with our current roster.

You and I both know Scottie won't be able to tap into his full potential as long as Siakam plays on this team.

I think I've made my point already on the comparisons. Your comparison is all about who can score more efficiently today at 3 levels. This is very flawed because by your own logic Wagner is a better player than Banchero who you have also touted (a lot of this is the grass is greener outlook). Barnes has shown he can score at 3 levels, but again, not efficiently because he was drafted as a raw offensive player with potential. He has shown some encouraging signs and is clearly not shy to shoot like Ben Simmons who you have also compared him to (lol). He has also shown an ability grow in game, and we have to bank on that.

I disagree that this front office should have drafted Wagner if they were keeping Siakam. Barnes is still going to end up the better player which is what they're projecting. Wagner wasn't raising the ceiling for Siakam and this team today even if Wagner is a better shooter today. Barnes shifts the defense better than Wagner does is a much better passer and works better in this defense.

The Raptors do need to trade Siakam though because this team is just constructed with zero fit, the team is no where near contention and the age difference doesn't make sense. Well, otherwise Masai will need to get above average scorers at the positions not played by Poeltl, Siakam or Barnes (see Mitchell and Garland or Trae Young and Murray) and that's not happening.

[HumbleRen]

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

Beats me man, you're the one coming up with horrible comps lol.

All I've said is if the FO was adamant on building around Siakam they should of just drafted Wagner because they're stunting Scottie's growth with our current roster.

You and I both know Scottie won't be able to tap into his full potential as long as Siakam plays on this team.

I think I've made my point already on the comparisons. Your comparison is all about who can score more efficiently today at 3 levels. This is very flawed because by your own logic Wagner is a better player than Banchero who you have also touted (a lot of this is the grass is greener outlook). Barnes has shown he can score at 3 levels, but again, not efficiently because he was drafted as a raw offensive player with potential. He has shown some encouraging signs and is clearly not shy to shoot like Ben Simmons who you have also compared him to (lol). He has also shown an ability grow in game, and we have to bank on that.

I disagree that this front office should have drafted Wagner if they were keeping Siakam. Barnes is still going to end up the better player which is what they're projecting. Wagner wasn't raising the ceiling for Siakam and this team today even if Wagner is a better shooter today. Barnes shifts the defense better than Wagner does is a much better passer and works better in this defense.

The Raptors do need to trade Siakam though because this team is just constructed with zero fit, the team is no where near contention and the age difference doesn't make sense. Well, otherwise Masai will need to get above average scorers at the positions not played by Poeltl, Siakam or Barnes (see Mitchell and Garland or Trae Young and Murray) and that's not happening.

Wagner is better than Banchero lol. That’s exactly what I’m saying.

As your 2nd point, we’re just so far away from putting the 3 level scoring tag on Scottie. Gotta walk before you can run lol.

As for your 3rd point, yep, I completely agree.

[Raps in 4]

Simmons has 36 3PA in his entire career, spanning 5 seasons. Scottie has 388 across 2 seasons.

There is a gulf-sized gap between them offensively. Dwfences can't completely ignore Scottie outside the paint like they can Simmons.

Again, you’re confusing versatility vs the actual results.

It’s great that Scottie has so many 3 point attempts but he’s also shooting 29-30% from the 3 lol.

When Scottie starts being efficient, that’s when the offensive gap opens up.

Reminds me of the whole Bargnani argument. "But he's 7 foot and he shoots 3s." While completely ignoring what he was bad at.

Like you said. Versatility and actual results.

Simmons is missing the most fundamental skill in basketball, the ability to shoot the ball.

A player that is able to shoot and hit threes, even if at just 30%, is already miles ahead of Simmons offensively.

Sinmons plays the game as if he's Shaq, except he's only 6'10" 240 lbs, and is scared of contact.

[Wise80]

Again, you’re confusing versatility vs the actual results.

It’s great that Scottie has so many 3 point attempts but he’s also shooting 29-30% from the 3 lol.

When Scottie starts being efficient, that’s when the offensive gap opens up.

Reminds me of the whole Bargnani argument. "But he's 7 foot and he shoots 3s." While completely ignoring what he was bad at.

Like you said. Versatility and actual results.

Simmons is missing the most fundamental skill in basketball, the ability to shoot the ball.

A player that is able to shoot and hit threes, even if at just 30%, is already miles ahead of Simmons offensively.

Sinmons plays the game as if he's Shaq, except he's only 6'10" 240 lbs, and is scared of contact.

That's not how he was guarded in his first 2 years. He was driving and kicking and getting double teamed.

Nowadays? Sure. But not back then. He was getting to the line 5 times a game.

The guy was guarding Kawhi in the playoffs after the first game in his second year because Jimmy got wrecked so hard.

[Syd-TK3]

The same mid range shots Scottie was bricking against the clippers and everyone was complaining about he hit last night against the Lakers.

Trial and error is part of development

[pingpongrac]

The same mid range shots Scottie was bricking against the clippers and everyone was complaining about he hit last night against the Lakers.

Trial and error is part of development

He was 0/4 in the midrange against the Clippers and 0/0 against the Lakers. Unless you're including shots from ~10 feet out as midrange, he was taking better shots last night. Everything last night was within reason (backing down a defender then a bit of a fade as he's turning around and taking the shot in his regular motion) whereas he was straight-up jumping back and it looked like he was pushing the ball (almost as if it was a bit of a heave) because he was so off-balance against the Clippers on numerous occasions. He also had a lot of timely cuts last night leading to easy buckets as well as a few putbacks.

Last night was one of Scottie's best games in the NBA, especially as a scorer. It wasn't so much trial and error as it was simply Scottie playing to his strengths (taking the ball inside and capitalizing on some easy transition/semi-transition buckets and putbacks) and the team recognizing that he had it going. Obviously you want him to become a better shooter outside of the paint, but that doesn't mean he still can't play to his scoring strengths for the most part.

[Syd-TK3]

The same mid range shots Scottie was bricking against the clippers and everyone was complaining about he hit last night against the Lakers.

Trial and error is part of development

He was 0/4 in the midrange against the Clippers and 0/0 against the Lakers. Unless you're including shots from ~10 feet out as midrange, he was taking better shots last night. Everything last night was within reason (backing down a defender then a bit of a fade as he's turning around and taking the shot in his regular motion) whereas he was straight-up jumping back and it looked like he was pushing the ball (almost as if it was a bit of a heave) because he was so off-balance against the Clippers on numerous occasions. He also had a lot of timely cuts last night leading to easy buckets as well as a few putbacks.

Last night was one of Scottie's best games in the NBA, especially as a scorer. It wasn't so much trial and error as it was simply Scottie playing to his strengths (taking the ball inside and capitalizing on some easy transition/semi-transition buckets and putbacks) and the team recognizing that he had it going. Obviously you want him to become a better shooter outside of the paint, but that doesn't mean he still can't play to his scoring strengths for the most part.

Okay "midrange" isnt the right term if you wanna be technical I'm talking about those turn around fade aways and shots over players anything that's not a floater or directly in the paint

[HiJiNX]

The same mid range shots Scottie was bricking against the clippers and everyone was complaining about he hit last night against the Lakers.

Trial and error is part of development

He was 0/4 in the midrange against the Clippers and 0/0 against the Lakers. Unless you're including shots from ~10 feet out as midrange, he was taking better shots last night. Everything last night was within reason (backing down a defender then a bit of a fade as he's turning around and taking the shot in his regular motion) whereas he was straight-up jumping back and it looked like he was pushing the ball (almost as if it was a bit of a heave) because he was so off-balance against the Clippers on numerous occasions. He also had a lot of timely cuts last night leading to easy buckets as well as a few putbacks.

Last night was one of Scottie's best games in the NBA, especially as a scorer. It wasn't so much trial and error as it was simply Scottie playing to his strengths (taking the ball inside and capitalizing on some easy transition/semi-transition buckets and putbacks) and the team recognizing that he had it going. Obviously you want him to become a better shooter outside of the paint, but that doesn't mean he still can't play to his scoring strengths for the most part.

Okay "midrange" isnt the right term if you wanna be technical I'm talking about those turn around fade aways and shots over players anything that's not a floater or directly in the paint

I agree with you. Just because those shots didn’t fit into whatever the established threshold for what a midrange shot is based on a particular statistic doesn’t mean they weren’t midrange jumpers. They weren’t threes and they weren’t hook shots, floaters, push shots, dunks or layups so what else can they be then midrange jumpers?

Why not just give the kid credit for making some jumpers?

[Reeko]

The same mid range shots Scottie was bricking against the clippers and everyone was complaining about he hit last night against the Lakers.

Trial and error is part of development

He was 0/4 in the midrange against the Clippers and 0/0 against the Lakers. Unless you're including shots from ~10 feet out as midrange, he was taking better shots last night. Everything last night was within reason (backing down a defender then a bit of a fade as he's turning around and taking the shot in his regular motion) whereas he was straight-up jumping back and it looked like he was pushing the ball (almost as if it was a bit of a heave) because he was so off-balance against the Clippers on numerous occasions. He also had a lot of timely cuts last night leading to easy buckets as well as a few putbacks.

Last night was one of Scottie's best games in the NBA, especially as a scorer. It wasn't so much trial and error as it was simply Scottie playing to his strengths (taking the ball inside and capitalizing on some easy transition/semi-transition buckets and putbacks) and the team recognizing that he had it going. Obviously you want him to become a better shooter outside of the paint, but that doesn't mean he still can't play to his scoring strengths for the most part.

He hit at least 1 if not 2 mid range shots last night, if we're defining it as a shot that is inside of the 3 point line but outside of the key. At the 1:30 mark and then at the 2:25 mark where he starts his move in the key but shoots off of one leg outside of the key. Regardless, he didn't go 0/0 from the midrange against the Lakers.

Watch on YouTube

[pingpongrac]

The same mid range shots Scottie was bricking against the clippers and everyone was complaining about he hit last night against the Lakers.

Trial and error is part of development

He was 0/4 in the midrange against the Clippers and 0/0 against the Lakers. Unless you're including shots from ~10 feet out as midrange, he was taking better shots last night. Everything last night was within reason (backing down a defender then a bit of a fade as he's turning around and taking the shot in his regular motion) whereas he was straight-up jumping back and it looked like he was pushing the ball (almost as if it was a bit of a heave) because he was so off-balance against the Clippers on numerous occasions. He also had a lot of timely cuts last night leading to easy buckets as well as a few putbacks.

Last night was one of Scottie's best games in the NBA, especially as a scorer. It wasn't so much trial and error as it was simply Scottie playing to his strengths (taking the ball inside and capitalizing on some easy transition/semi-transition buckets and putbacks) and the team recognizing that he had it going. Obviously you want him to become a better shooter outside of the paint, but that doesn't mean he still can't play to his scoring strengths for the most part.

He hit at least 1 if not 2 mid range shots last night, if we're defining it as a shot that is inside of the 3 point line but outside of the key. At the 1:30 mark and then at the 2:25 mark where he starts his move in the key but shoots off of one leg outside of the key. Regardless, he didn't go 0/0 from the midrange against the Lakers.

Watch on YouTube

I forgot about that pull-up midrange jumper he made in the 2nd. That's my bad. I wouldn't consider the shot made at 2:30 to be a midrange jumper, but I guess it depends on what one considers a midrange shot. I've always thought of a midrange shot as basically anything outside of the paint and inside the three-point line in that 12-20 foot range.

Scottie took 11 of his 19 shots within 8 feet while 3 others were from 10 or 11 feet and 4 others were threes, which means he took one shot in that 12-20 foot range (the pull-up jumper to start Q2). Compared to the Clippers game where he took 4 shots in the 13-18 foot range, I thought his shot selection was a lot better last night and he was on-balance for basically every attempt. In the Clippers game, he was fading to the extreme and even fell backwards when he landed on one occasion.

His short chart for last night's game is extremely ideal (5 shots right at the rim, 9 others in the paint, 1 just barely inside the paint and 3 corner threes with 1 above the break three) compared to the Clippers game where he was stretching things out a bit more (4 shots right at the rim, 9 others in the paint, 4 midrange jumpers, 2 corner threes and 2 above the break threes). I'm not trying to box Scottie in and say he should only be taking those shots. I'm just acknowledging the fact that those are the best shots for him right now as he is typically very effective close to the rim and his three-point shot looks the best from the corners. He could be putting up 20+ point games pretty frequently if he took more shots within ~5 feet of the rim and from the corners rather than above the break, but obviously we want to see growth from other areas.

[Los_29]

Currently right now ? Nope, Banchero isn't.

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

Bruh he’s trolling us

Mfer is bored on a Saturday morning

The funny thing is after about 5 games, HumbleRen was claiming that Banchero was a three level scorer and is a significantly better prospect than Scottie. Banchero's TS% is worse than Scottie's and that's supposed to be his bread and butter. All the good things Scottie does, Banchero can't do...And I like Banchero but this is the problem with hot takes. They always age poorly. lol.

[ItsDanger]

Banchero can beat a defender off the dribble much better than Scottie can. Too many horrible opinions on here.

[HumbleRen]

What are you even arguing here lol? No one is drafting a player for their second year output with a top 4 pick lol

Bruh he’s trolling us

Mfer is bored on a Saturday morning

The funny thing is after about 5 games, HumbleRen was claiming that Banchero was a three level scorer and is a significantly better prospect than Scottie. Banchero's TS% is worse than Scottie's and that's supposed to be his bread and butter. All the good things Scottie does, Banchero can't do...And I like Banchero but this is the problem with hot takes. They always age poorly. lol.

He absolutely is a better prospect than Scottie lmao.

He went #1 for a reason.

You can’t compare someone’s TS% as a 1st option to someone who’s the 5th scoring option lol.

Banchero is facing primary defensive coverage at almost all times. He has to beat his initial defender and make decisions against the secondary defender on almost every possession.

Scottie is no where near facing that level of defence lol. Siakam/FVV are top 10 in most doubled players in the league which means most of the time Scottie is facing the weakest defender on the court and still has a below average TS%.

I wouldn’t expect you to understand that nuance because you’ve shown repeatedly to lack basketball know how.

[tripa]

He's the kind of player we wished Barnes was.

32/5/5, 4 stocks on 15 shots, took over in the 4th.

Barnes is still a much better player and will be going forward.

I'll take the guy who is far more efficient, is actually a good defender, far better athlete, can handle the ball as a primary option and can shoot the ball, now and in the future.

[Reeko]

You guys who keep on insisting that Banchero and Wagner are better than Scottie gotta get your stories straight. One person says that Banchero is the primary option the other guy says that Wagner is the primary option...which is it?

[HumbleRen]

You guys who keep on insisting that Banchero and Wagner are better than Scottie gotta get your stories straight. One person says that Banchero is the primary option the other guy says that Wagner is the primary option...which is it?

There’s nothing to insist, they’re just simply better this year lol.


As for your question, it’s both but from what I’ve seen it leans more towards Banchero when it comes to plays being ran for.

They’re 1A or 1B on any given night, depending on who has it going.