Fultz: Ranked #29 out of 30 Point Guard

orthoman · Post #1 » by **orthoman** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:33 pm

I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

tiderulz · Post #2 » by **tiderulz** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:48 pm

been plenty people here that said he was below average PG. 29 is a little surprising though

Bergmaniac · Post #3 » by **Bergmaniac** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:55 pm

He's definitely not 29th, he's certainly better than Kilian Hayes, Tre Jones and the current version of Westbrook, probably a few others I am too lazy to look up.

Max Power · Post #4 » by **Max Power** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:08 pm

Typical anti-Magic bias if you ask me. Granted, Markelle’s injury history probably plays into that as well. If Markelle keeps his recent stellar play into next season and the Magic win more I’d expect articles such as these will change their tunes.

VFX · Post #5 » by **VFX** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:11 pm

pepe1991 · Post #6 » by **pepe1991** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:43 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:He's definitely not 29th, he's certainly better than Kilian Hayes, Tre Jones and the current version of Westbrook, probably a few others I am too lazy to look up.

I would assume Hayes is no longer listed as starter, it's Ivey or Cade.

orlando_joe · Post #7 » by **orlando_joe** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:04 pm

i mean his sc-eff is better then some guards just not a shot taking hog....cough fvv...d murray a sg sure but..better then c.paul ....fultz ripped for not being able to shoot .....yet?

drsd · Post #8 » by **drsd** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:58 pm

orthoman wrote:I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.

But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.

Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.

So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.

..

RichCollab · Post #9 » by **RichCollab** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:14 pm

Fultz stayed healthy and improved. Winning season from my point of view. I run with him next season unless we luck into the 2nd pick and draft Scoot. Fultz top 15 pg next season.

pepe1991 · Post #10 » by **pepe1991** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:16 pm

drsd wrote:
orthoman wrote:I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.

But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.

Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.

So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.

..

If you used ESPN's list for PER, it's complete BS as their positions split makes no sense whatsoever.

Why PG list does not have:
Harden, Vleet, Kevin Porter Jr, CJ McCullum, Lebron, Poole ?

Why Sabonis , Wood, AD, Garuba aren't centers?

chrbal · Post #11 » by **chrbal** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:21 pm

It’s an article from before this season started.

Post #12 » by **eyriq** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:22 pm

orthoman wrote:I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

One quick and easy way to check how he stacks up against starting point guards is to look at ESPN's real plus minus. Filtering to PG's that average >= 28 MPG and have played in >= 20 games this season Fultz is clearly a below average starting point guard due to his poor impact on offense. Top 15 in defense though...

30th in ORPM (-1.44)
11th in DRPM (1.21)
27th overall (-0.23)

MagicFan101 · Post #13 » by **MagicFan101** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:56 pm

OP: are you talking about this article written on 10/3/2022 well before Fultz even returned this season let alone before he got back to full speed?

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-point-guard-rankings-2022-23-starters/xkrzvjczcf5ecphwydfbmlgt

Look, I’m the guy who just posted in another thread about Scoot Henderson. I’m very aware of our need for an elite star at the PG spot if we want to get to the top but the ignorant biased hate towards Fultz is getting out of hand.

orlando_joe · Post #14 » by **orlando_joe** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:58 pm

delete

fendilim · Post #15 » by **fendilim** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:14 pm

Is Fultz our starting PG moving forward? I hope not.

Is he the 29th worst starting PG in the league? Nope.

jezzerinho · Post #16 » by **jezzerinho** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:42 pm

EPM ranks him #30 among all PGs.

On expected Wins, they rank him #31.

Audi · Post #17 » by **Audi** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:02 pm

It’s like people forget that PG is the most star-stacked position in the league, most of whom are top 1-2 options on their teams. I’ve been under the impression we wanted our #1 and #2 options to be Paolo & Franz…so why compare the guy we literally want operating as a #3/#4 option to guys like Curry, Ja, Dame, etc?

Also, as others have said - articles are outdated.

Post #18 » by **eyriq** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:16 pm

Audi wrote:It’s like people forget that PG is the most star-stacked position in the league, most of whom are top 1-2 options on their teams. I’ve been under the impression we wanted our #1 and #2 options to be Paolo & Franz…so why compare the guy we literally want operating as a #3/#4 option to guys like Curry, Ja, Dame, etc?

Also, as others have said - articles are outdated.

You've got arguably the best defensive small forward in the league in Franz (#1 in DRPM amongst SFs) and arguably one of the best offensive power forwards in the league in Paolo (#10 in ORPM amongst PFs). Getting an offensive impact from your PG should be a strategy given our abundance of resources.

Skybox · Post #19 » by **Skybox** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:19 pm

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today. Not even worth discussing years ago. They have similar games, both are outdated in era where offenses routinely score 120 (3 at a time) and defenses pack the paint and dare non-shooters (or even just less dangerous shooters) to punish them.

Tre Jones is mediocre, would be a great backup...but also a better skill mix at PG than Fultz.

I'm really sorry, but it's true. He made 2 of 4 the other night, but they dared him to take 15 and his awkward form suggested that he really didn't want to take any...I don't know why (physical or mental), but why is not as critical as the facts. Banchero and Franz are just getting beat up going into crowds and drawing so much contact...they could both be scoring 25ppg if they met an occasional 1 on 1. Paolo is built to play like a 3 with a body and a style that punishes defenders (and he does) but he can't beat a crowd all night long.

Bergmaniac · Post #20 » by **Bergmaniac** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:33 pm

Skybox wrote:Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today. Not even worth discussing years ago. They have similar games, both are outdated in era where offenses routinely score 120 (3 at a time) and defenses pack the paint and dare non-shooters (or even just less dangerous shooters) to punish them.

He is really not and I say it as a huge Westbrook fan. Defensively Westbrook is a disaster this season. Watch any of his game and focus on what he does on defense, he is getting abused constantly. And offensively he is a better passer and playmaker, but Fultz is a more efficient scorer who knows his limitations and has a much superior midrange jumper, so overall it's a wash or at most a small advantage to Russ which doesn't come close to negate the defensive gap.