Brandon Miller - Alabama

[reanimator]

Alabama doesn't have big talent around him, help defenders can cheat against Miller. The key for his game is going to be mid range efficiency

I mean....

And it was echoed during the South Carolina game too.

[SeattleJazzFan]

miller with a nice, though unspectacular, game today. shot it only decent, one of his better games making plays for teammates finishing with 5 assists, rebounded, took care of the ball (1 TO) and played very good defense. one characteristic of great players is that even when they don't play great, they still make an impact in several ways - they don't disappear. it was a fun game to watch from him - and that that stroke is just so pure.

you watch the game, missed some bunnies, some good looks at three, you might think he's playing poorly, but he finishes with 18, 9 and 5 (with the one TO) in just 28 minutes.

[mattao313]

Didn't watch but boxscore wise he had a pretty good game .

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[reanimator]

Once again, the debate for a lot of this thread is his onball creation not any other aspect of the game. 4 catch and shoot 3s, a transition bucket, and a put back do not speak to his creation. We know he can shoot offball and rebound so not really worth mentioning.

If you watched the game, you would know he had a few finds in PnR and transition but struggled to get where he wanted in the halfcourt. 3 straight games of bad onball scoring after a really good one vs Arkansas.

[Upperclass]

This dude looks like another Jarret Culver-type prospect. Doesnt seem like much different from your standard 6'6/6'7 high D1 wing scorer

[clyde21]

This dude looks like another Jarret Culver-type prospect. Doesnt seem like much different from your standard 6'6/6'7 high D1 wing scorer

except he's not 6'6 or 6'7 he's 6'9 which is a completely different threshold.

[Upperclass]

^Lots of very average prospects in recent drafts of the same archetype.. KZ Okpala, Cam Reddish, Justin Jackson, Ziaire Williams.. the '23 draft looks pretty terrible overall

[clyde21]

it's one of the best and deepest classes in a while but ok

[reanimator]

If Culver or Reddish could shoot like Miller, they would have very different outcomes. I don't think there is any way Miller fails as a floor spacer at minimum

[SeattleJazzFan]

Once again, the debate for a lot of this thread is his onball creation not any other aspect of the game. 4 catch and shoot 3s, a transition bucket, and a put back do not speak to his creation. We know he can shoot offball and rebound so not really worth mentioning.

If you watched the game, you would know he had a few finds in PnR and transition but struggled to get where he wanted in the halfcourt. 3 straight games of bad onball scoring after a really good one vs Arkansas.

he didn't do great scoring on the ball, he created and found people. he was fine. it's the jumbled mess that is cbb. any bigger wing is going to have their struggles at times creating on the ball.

[SeattleJazzFan]

This dude looks like another Jarret Culver-type prospect. Doesnt seem like much different from your standard 6'6/6'7 high D1 wing scorer

except he's not 6'6 or 6'7 he's 6'9 which is a completely different threshold.

6'9" and is a pure shooter. culver was a 30% 3pt shooter coming out of TT on 4 attempts per. Miller is a 40% shooter on 7 attempts. that anybody would try to compare them is pretty funny. they are really nothing alike.

[reanimator]

Once again, the debate for a lot of this thread is his onball creation not any other aspect of the game. 4 catch and shoot 3s, a transition bucket, and a put back do not speak to his creation. We know he can shoot offball and rebound so not really worth mentioning.

If you watched the game, you would know he had a few finds in PnR and transition but struggled to get where he wanted in the halfcourt. 3 straight games of bad onball scoring after a really good one vs Arkansas.

he didn't do great scoring on the ball, he created and found people. he was fine. it's the jumbled mess that is cbb. any bigger wing is going to have their struggles at times creating on the ball.

Yes, I said he passed the ball well in my initial post which is important but my concern isn't whether he had a good game or shot the ball well. Alabama is a well spaced team, but he often has issues creating advantages which I hone in on due to the belief he has Ingram/Tatum/PG13 type upside. In the Arkansas game and late in the South Carolina game, he was shooting over guys when he got stopped on his drives or simply getting the switch onto a big where he could then blow past them but that has not been the case these last 3 games.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Miller with another really good game against a damn good team. 20, 12 and 4 on 8-11 FGs.

[The-Power]

We're talking about one of the best seasons by a Freshman wing in recent memory and there are still people who make it seem like all he really does is catch-and-shoot and downplay how spectacular he has been especially in conference play.

As for his on-ball creation: I'm not sure we're watching the games but he creates a lot on the ball. He has completely turned one of – if not the – biggest weakness, namely the ability to create and finish in the paint, into a genuine strength. Over the course of a couple weeks! His handles are also incredible for a 6'9 Freshman. The way he uses hesitation and dribble combinations to weave his way into a good shoot is as advanced as I have seen in a long time for a player with his profile. The idea that he struggles to create his own shot just feels incredibly strange to me. I can only explain that with nitpicking or absurd expectations.

Watch on YouTube

Just looking at last night's game. At 1:45, how many wings keep that dribble alive and have the patience and creativity to turn this into an and-1? Not many. Or at 4:15, the way he creates separation for the pull-up 3 is an advanced NBA move already. The tools for him are all there. He would be a very deserving #1 pick if it wasn't for Victor Wembanyama.

[Catchall]

We're talking about one of the best seasons by a Freshman wing in recent memory and there are still people who make it seem like all he really does is catch-and-shoot and downplay how spectacular he has been especially in conference play.

As for his on-ball creation: I'm not sure we're watching the games but he creates a lot on the ball. He has completely turned one of – if not the – biggest weakness, namely the ability to create and finish in the paint, into a genuine strength. Over the course of a couple weeks! His handles are also incredible for a 6'9 Freshman. The way he uses hesitation and dribble combinations to weave his way into a good shoot is as advanced as I have seen in a long time for a player with his profile. The idea that he struggles to create his own shot just feels incredibly strange to me. I can only explain that with nitpicking or absurd expectations.

I question whether he's going to be able to get separation and beat defenders consistently at the next level. Hence, people comparing him to a complementary off-ball scorer like Khris Middleton. I've thrown out another name in the past--Nic Batum. People think I'm dogging Miller when I make that comparison. However, take a look at these Batum highlights from 10 years ago and tell me you don't think this is a good outcome for Brandon Miller.

Watch on YouTube

[The-Power]

I question whether he's going to be able to get separation and beat defenders consistently at the next level. Hence, people comparing him to a complementary off-ball scorer like Khris Middleton. I've thrown out another name in the past--Nic Batum.

Have you said the same about Tatum? Can he create at the next level? I'm not sure people fully grasp that Miller, as a Freshman, was the POY in the toughest conference in college basketball. I see no reason to believe that he, of all people, has more question marks about next-level creation ability than frankly anyone else in this draft. You can never know for sure but if we question that ability for Miller then we should question it even more for literally every other prospect in this draft.

But somehow we have people who watch prospects that are worse at creating their own shots against many times inferior HS competition and somehow have fewer doubts about their ability to create in the NBA. It's insane. I thought people learned from Luka (not saying that Miller is Luka as a prospect, of course, but too many people dismissed his elite production because ‘just wait until he's facing NBA athletes’). Highly skilled wings with great size and elite production tend to figure it out in the NBA, too.

[Catchall]

I question whether he's going to be able to get separation and beat defenders consistently at the next level. Hence, people comparing him to a complementary off-ball scorer like Khris Middleton. I've thrown out another name in the past--Nic Batum.

Have you said the same about Tatum? Can he create at the next level? I'm not sure people fully grasp that Miller, as a Freshman, was the POY in the toughest conference in college basketball. I see no reason to believe that he, of all people, has more question marks about next-level creation ability than frankly anyone else in this draft. You can never know for sure but if we question that ability for Miller then we should question it even more for literally every other prospect in this draft.

Hard disagree on this. First of all, Tatum was an incredibly smooth three-level and isolation scorer who was the best prospect in his draft. Even so, there were questions about how well he'd translate to the pros. Second of all, there's no doubt that other players in this class have a better first step and better ability to get separation than Brandon Miller, including Scoot, both Thompsons and Cam at a minimum.

The knock on Miller is that he doesn't have a great first step, he's not explosive off the dribble, and his elevation is limited. That doesn't show up as much in the college game, but it will against NBA size, length and athleticism. Miller has some shift and good feel off the dribble, but it probably isn't enough to make him a primary scorer. That's why you'll keep hearing people say his ideal role is that of an off-ball, complementary scorer like Khris Middleton.

[buzzkilloton]

Seems like he never has a bad game just so consistent.

[The-Power]

Hard disagree on this. First of all, Tatum was an incredibly smooth three-level and isolation scorer who was the best prospect in his draft. Even so, there were questions about how well he'd translate to the pros. Second of all, there's no doubt that other players in this class have a better first step and better ability to get separation than Brandon Miller, including Scoot, both Thompsons and Cam at a minimum.

Sorry, but the part about Tatum is hindsight. This is what you wrote about him at the time:

I see Tatum as a Tobias Harris-type complementary player, not a star or primary offensive player. It's tempting to compare his role in the NBA to Shane Battier, though Tatum is more versatile offensively. If expectations are that he's going to be an All Star-caliber player, he's likely to disappoint. Good college player though.

So this ‘best prospect of his class’ assessment comes from, at least in your case, after his translation to the NBA. Indeed, Miller has played a better season than Tatum. The question is: why was that? What was he better at than Tatum, and why should that translate worse to the NBA? It's not like Tatum had an elite first step, so that's not it. I've yet to hear someone make argument. Sure, Tatum was better in some areas but Miller is (even more so) in others.

Re: First Step. I'll just make two points here. First, if his lack of first step holds him back then how come it hasn't in the NCAA? What is the precedent? Second, I truly believe that you severely overrate first step for on-ball creators. You make it sound like those who have a better first step than Miller are a shoe-in for better creation upside, and that's just not true. Creation depends as much, if not more, on your ability to handle the ball, creativity and instincts, basketball IQ and, perhaps most importantly, your ability to pull up. None of the players you mentioned as having a better first step have a better overall creation package than Miller.

The knock on Miller is that he doesn't have a great first step, he's not explosive off the dribble, and his elevation is limited. That doesn't show up as much in the college game, but it will against NBA size, length and athleticism. Miller has some shift and good feel off the dribble, but it probably isn't enough to make him a primary scorer. That's why you'll keep hearing people say his ideal role is that of an off-ball, complementary scorer like Khris Middleton.

You don't have to have a great first step to be a primary creator in the NBA. In fact, many of the best wing creators in the NBA do not have a special first step currently. Luka? Nope. Tatum? Nope. George? Not anymore, really. Kawhi? Not currently. None of them create based on their ability to blow by guys. Of course they have other qualities but so does Miller. And of course they are better than Miller at a lot of those other qualities, but that took years of development and there's nothing inherently stopping Miller from improving as they did. And it's not like Miller has a problematic physical profile. His first step and overall explosion isn't elite but it's not bad at all, plus he's long and insanely fluid.

But I'm willing to listen to a list of players who were as elite as Miller in terms of scoring but struggled considerably more in the NBA. Small Guards and old-school Bigs excluded because that's not at all Miller's profile. I'm all ears. Also, if your point is that we can't expect Miller to be a creator that is much better than Middleton, I don't even disagree. The problem is that the same is true for literally every other prospect in the draft. So what are we talking about? If your argument is that Miller is less likely to develop into a primary scorer than some other players in the draft, I'd disagree. You don't need to be an explosive athlete to be a great scorer in the NBA. To imply that you do is just not rooted in reality. Indeed, a bunch of other skills are much more important and Miller combines those skills much better than the ‘elite athletes’ in this draft.

edit: And to make another point explicit: the NBA is all about counters when it comes to elite scorers. Very few players are good enough at one particular thing to become elite scorers that way. Certainly there are no players who primarily rely on their first step who are not figured out eventually. Miller has a lot of counters. This is part what makes him so consistent (which the poster above correctly points out) and this consistency is what distinguishes elite scorers or offensive players from those who aren't. Because many NBA players can look elite offensively for a game or a stretch of games – but only the truly elite ones can look like that consistently.

[reanimator]

We're talking about one of the best seasons by a Freshman wing in recent memory and there are still people who make it seem like all he really does is catch-and-shoot and downplay how spectacular he has been especially in conference play.

As for his on-ball creation: I'm not sure we're watching the games but he creates a lot on the ball. He has completely turned one of – if not the – biggest weakness, namely the ability to create and finish in the paint, into a genuine strength. Over the course of a couple weeks! His handles are also incredible for a 6'9 Freshman. The way he uses hesitation and dribble combinations to weave his way into a good shoot is as advanced as I have seen in a long time for a player with his profile. The idea that he struggles to create his own shot just feels incredibly strange to me. I can only explain that with nitpicking or absurd expectations.

Watch on YouTube

Just looking at last night's game. At 1:45, how many wings keep that dribble alive and have the patience and creativity to turn this into an and-1? Not many. Or at 4:15, the way he creates separation for the pull-up 3 is an advanced NBA move already. The tools for him are all there. He would be a very deserving #1 pick if it wasn't for Victor Wembanyama.

This is the Missouri game.

Yes I question the Mississipi St, Texas A+M, and Auburn games because he simply had issues creating onball. If it is "absurd" or you feel different then post some of the every possession footage to reference.

This is the thing with people who are very high on Miller. Yes, he has good games onball. Like I said, he was excellent vs Arkansas, at the end of South Carolina, and yesterday but it doesn't discount everything holistically.

Nitpicking would be to say Arkansas (Kenpom 54), South Carolina (Kenpom 216), and Missouri (178) are awful defensive teams while any team he struggles against onball are good Mississipi St (6), Texas A+M (35), and Auburn (29).

Not only acknowledging when Miller has a great game onball is nitpicking but monitoring every Scoot game for how many dunks or how many 3s he makes/misses versus grown men and a NBA 3 pt line is somehow inbounds on this forum. Now that is strange to me.