Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Reeko]

You guys who keep on insisting that Banchero and Wagner are better than Scottie gotta get your stories straight. One person says that Banchero is the primary option the other guy says that Wagner is the primary option...which is it?

There’s nothing to insist, they’re just simply better this year lol.


As for your question, it’s both but from what I’ve seen it leans more towards Banchero when it comes to plays being ran for.

They’re 1A or 1B on any given night, depending on who has it going.

The way you guys talk about Wagner, you make it seem like there's this huge gap between him and Barnes. The reality is that there isn't. You guys are deeming shooting efficiency to be the defining stats to determine who is the superior player and frankly it's a lazy process to come to that conclusion. Scottie is the better rebounder, passer, and shot blocker. Franz is the superior shooter and, I would also say, ball handler. When you look at their games in totality there's not much separating the two, valid arguments can be made in either direction.

[Mr Swagtastic]

Crazy takes on the trade board. People think Toronto is moving Barnes for Hield or Duarte and a lotto pick or Kevin Porter Jr. Yeah no Masai isn't a dumbass

[Tha Cynic]

You guys who keep on insisting that Banchero and Wagner are better than Scottie gotta get your stories straight. One person says that Banchero is the primary option the other guy says that Wagner is the primary option...which is it?

There’s nothing to insist, they’re just simply better this year lol.


As for your question, it’s both but from what I’ve seen it leans more towards Banchero when it comes to plays being ran for.

They’re 1A or 1B on any given night, depending on who has it going.

The way you guys talk about Wagner, you make it seem like there's this huge gap between him and Barnes. The reality is that there isn't. You guys are deeming shooting efficiency to be the defining stats to determine who is the superior player and frankly it's a lazy process to come to that conclusion. Scottie is the better rebounder, passer, and shot blocker. Franz is the superior shooter and, I would also say, ball handler. When you look at their games in totality there's not much separating the two, valid arguments can be made in either direction.

Lazy is a great way to put it. Lazy is what makes people say Banchero is a 3 level scorer after a few games and Wagner is a Jason Tatum archetype and then switch that take when they get caught in a bad take because then you have to admit Barnes is a 3 level scorer by your own definition. The grass is always greener on the other side lol. Lazy is what made people think Barngani was going to be a great player. Lazy is also what makes people easily conclude that Banchero and Wagner are better this year.

I wouldn't be surprised if these are the same takes that make people think Duarte, Porter Jr. or Mathurin are better prospects than Barnes too.

I can take the wild takes but the way people use stats here makes me cringe. Stick to pulling stats and let someone else do the analysis. If you can't delve deep into layers of stats and question why each analysis is giving you the conclusion you're drawing, you're not doing anyone a favour, you're just being lazy. This isn't how stats are used in the real world by those who know what they're doing. Take a pointer from a guy like Blake Murphy who will always give a stat and then give reasons for what may cause this to happen and what the stat may ignore. Don't listen to people like William Lou who will stop at the first layer that makes FVV look good lol.

[Reeko]

There’s nothing to insist, they’re just simply better this year lol.


As for your question, it’s both but from what I’ve seen it leans more towards Banchero when it comes to plays being ran for.

They’re 1A or 1B on any given night, depending on who has it going.

The way you guys talk about Wagner, you make it seem like there's this huge gap between him and Barnes. The reality is that there isn't. You guys are deeming shooting efficiency to be the defining stats to determine who is the superior player and frankly it's a lazy process to come to that conclusion. Scottie is the better rebounder, passer, and shot blocker. Franz is the superior shooter and, I would also say, ball handler. When you look at their games in totality there's not much separating the two, valid arguments can be made in either direction.

Lazy is a great way to put it. Lazy is what makes people say Banchero is a 3 level scorer after a few games and Wagner is a Jason Tatum archetype and then switch that take when they get caught in a bad take because then you have to admit Barnes is a 3 level scorer by your own definition. The grass is always greener on the other side lol. Lazy is what made people think Barngani was going to be a great player. Lazy is also what makes people easily conclude that Banchero and Wagner are better this year.

I wouldn't be surprised if these are the same takes that make people think Duarte, Porter Jr. or Mathurin are better prospects than Barnes too.

I can take the wild takes but the way people use stats here makes me cringe. Stick to pulling stats and let someone else do the analysis. If you can't delve deep into layers of stats and question why each analysis is giving you the conclusion you're drawing, you're not doing anyone a favour, you're just being lazy. This isn't how stats are used in the real world by those who know what they're doing.

Banchero, who shoots 28% from 3 and 42% from the field, is a 3 level scorer.

Scottie, who shoots 30% from 3 and 45% from the field, is not.

I would say that neither one of them are at this present moment but that they both have potential to be in the future. The one thing Banchero has over both Franz and Scottie, is his ability to get to the free throw line which is already elite.

[Tha Cynic]

The way you guys talk about Wagner, you make it seem like there's this huge gap between him and Barnes. The reality is that there isn't. You guys are deeming shooting efficiency to be the defining stats to determine who is the superior player and frankly it's a lazy process to come to that conclusion. Scottie is the better rebounder, passer, and shot blocker. Franz is the superior shooter and, I would also say, ball handler. When you look at their games in totality there's not much separating the two, valid arguments can be made in either direction.

Lazy is a great way to put it. Lazy is what makes people say Banchero is a 3 level scorer after a few games and Wagner is a Jason Tatum archetype and then switch that take when they get caught in a bad take because then you have to admit Barnes is a 3 level scorer by your own definition. The grass is always greener on the other side lol. Lazy is what made people think Barngani was going to be a great player. Lazy is also what makes people easily conclude that Banchero and Wagner are better this year.

I wouldn't be surprised if these are the same takes that make people think Duarte, Porter Jr. or Mathurin are better prospects than Barnes too.

I can take the wild takes but the way people use stats here makes me cringe. Stick to pulling stats and let someone else do the analysis. If you can't delve deep into layers of stats and question why each analysis is giving you the conclusion you're drawing, you're not doing anyone a favour, you're just being lazy. This isn't how stats are used in the real world by those who know what they're doing.

Banchero, who shoots 28% from 3 and 42% from the field, is a 3 level scorer.

Scottie, who shoots 30% from 3 and 45% from the field, is not.

I would say that neither one of them are at this present moment but that they both have potential to be in the future. The one thing Banchero has over both Franz and Scottie, is his ability to get to the free throw line which is already elite.

I'm shocked the Bulls released 3 level scorer Goran Dragic.

All joking aside, I agree. The ability get to the free throw line and his overall aggressiveness could be a good combination for a go to scorer down the line.

A guy's game is much more than just being a 3 level scorer. How aggressive will he be when it's a bad shot? How is his feel for the game? Will he put in the work? Will he know when to pass? Can he play without being a ball stopper? Does he make others around him better? How is his impact on the game? Does he care about defense? Can he be an on court leader? Can he take over games in multiple ways? Can he carry a team on his shoulders when they need him?

There's so much that goes into what makes a good featured basketball player and multiple combination of things have to go right. What I will say is that I am glad we have Barnes and like his projection against Wagner and Banchero individually. I personally think he'll be better than both of those guys and I don't think either of those guys are better than him today.

[HumbleRen]

I get it, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I don’t expect most Raps fans in here to acknowledge that Franz and Banchero are currently better than Scottie. Hell, there’s even people who are so biased that they think Scottie is better than Mobley right now lol.

He’s been a disappointment this year, it’s okay to acknowledge that. Everyone on the team has been disappointing, it’s not just him.

He was just simply not ready to take on a bigger load which is why the offence reverted back to FVV. Is some of that due to his injuries that he was playing through ? Possibly. Him not being a great fit with the roster definitely hurts his play style too.

Do I think he’s ready to be a focal point of an offence to the extent of Banchero and Franz ? No, not really. Do I want to see it happen ? Absolutely. Being tossed to the fire like Banchero/Franz have been is good for their development. That’s if you’re mentally strong enough to shoulder that burden.

[Reeko]

I get it, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I don’t expect most Raps fans in here to acknowledge that Franz and Banchero are currently better than Scottie. Hell, there’s even people who are so biased that they think Scottie is better than Mobley right now lol.

He’s been a disappointment this year, it’s okay to acknowledge that. Everyone on the team has been disappointing, it’s not just him.

He was just simply not ready to take on a bigger load which is why the offence reverted back to FVV. Is some of that due to his injuries that he was playing through ? Possibly. Him not being a great fit with the roster definitely hurts his play style too.

Do I think he’s ready to be a focal point of an offence to the extent of Banchero and Franz ? No, not really. Do I want to see it happen ? Absolutely. Being tossed to the fire like Banchero/Franz have been is good for their development. That’s if you’re mentally strong enough to shoulder that burden.

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

[Tha Cynic]

I get it, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I don’t expect most Raps fans in here to acknowledge that Franz and Banchero are currently better than Scottie. Hell, there’s even people who are so biased that they think Scottie is better than Mobley right now lol.

He’s been a disappointment this year, it’s okay to acknowledge that. Everyone on the team has been disappointing, it’s not just him.

He was just simply not ready to take on a bigger load which is why the offence reverted back to FVV. Is some of that due to his injuries that he was playing through ? Possibly. Him not being a great fit with the roster definitely hurts his play style too.

Do I think he’s ready to be a focal point of an offence to the extent of Banchero and Franz ? No, not really. Do I want to see it happen ? Absolutely. Being tossed to the fire like Banchero/Franz have been is good for their development. That’s if you’re mentally strong enough to shoulder that burden.

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

I think people forget that this is the same fanbase that's ready to jump on anyone who will lead this team to failure lol. If a guy sucks we don't cheer for them and will call it out and the front office. If Wagner is or looks better than Barnes I'll be the first to call the front office incompetent like they have been with roster construction.

Any analysis that says Nicola Vucevic was going to be a better basketball player than Kawhi Leonard after a season or two is vastly flawed

[HumbleRen]

I get it, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I don’t expect most Raps fans in here to acknowledge that Franz and Banchero are currently better than Scottie. Hell, there’s even people who are so biased that they think Scottie is better than Mobley right now lol.

He’s been a disappointment this year, it’s okay to acknowledge that. Everyone on the team has been disappointing, it’s not just him.

He was just simply not ready to take on a bigger load which is why the offence reverted back to FVV. Is some of that due to his injuries that he was playing through ? Possibly. Him not being a great fit with the roster definitely hurts his play style too.

Do I think he’s ready to be a focal point of an offence to the extent of Banchero and Franz ? No, not really. Do I want to see it happen ? Absolutely. Being tossed to the fire like Banchero/Franz have been is good for their development. That’s if you’re mentally strong enough to shoulder that burden.

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

Hiding behind the “5th worst team in the nba” is not the dig you think it is lol.

We’re only 4-5 games better than them and that’s WITH a win now move where we had to give up a valuable pick. In fact, we have an identical record as them since January 1st, that’s a 3 month sample size. Not bad for a couple of 20 year olds.

Meanwhile we have to beg Scottie to be assertive and not defer to Boucher, GTJ and Precious when they’re on the court lol.

I do think Scottie has a lot working against him due to roster fit, coaching negligence and pecking order but I won’t give him the excuse of being extremely passive at times.

[VanWest82]

I get it, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I don’t expect most Raps fans in here to acknowledge that Franz and Banchero are currently better than Scottie. Hell, there’s even people who are so biased that they think Scottie is better than Mobley right now lol.

He’s been a disappointment this year, it’s okay to acknowledge that. Everyone on the team has been disappointing, it’s not just him.

He was just simply not ready to take on a bigger load which is why the offence reverted back to FVV. Is some of that due to his injuries that he was playing through ? Possibly. Him not being a great fit with the roster definitely hurts his play style too.

Do I think he’s ready to be a focal point of an offence to the extent of Banchero and Franz ? No, not really. Do I want to see it happen ? Absolutely. Being tossed to the fire like Banchero/Franz have been is good for their development. That’s if you’re mentally strong enough to shoulder that burden.

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

There's evidence to seriously question whether Scottie could do what those guys are currently doing on the Magic. For starters, he just isn't as skilled as those guys at initiating offense (e.g. breaking his man down off the bounce, creating his own shot, etc.). Banchero is a better isolation player who can get to the line and Franz is a much better PnR ball handler. Scottie is still a tiertiary, attack against a tilted defense or post up a mismatch guy. You're not building an offense out of that. He has a ways to go in skill development, particularly ball handling and shooting, before we consider that.

[brownbobcat]

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

"He could, but just doesn't want to" isn't as ringing an endorsement as you think. It's moot as he clearly doesn't have the skillset right now to be the focal point. Can't be done without a jumper or consistent ability to break down the defense. I'm a big fan, I think he has a lot of promise - but a lot of flaws too.

[Mikistan]

I get it, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I don’t expect most Raps fans in here to acknowledge that Franz and Banchero are currently better than Scottie. Hell, there’s even people who are so biased that they think Scottie is better than Mobley right now lol.

He’s been a disappointment this year, it’s okay to acknowledge that. Everyone on the team has been disappointing, it’s not just him.

He was just simply not ready to take on a bigger load which is why the offence reverted back to FVV. Is some of that due to his injuries that he was playing through ? Possibly. Him not being a great fit with the roster definitely hurts his play style too.

Do I think he’s ready to be a focal point of an offence to the extent of Banchero and Franz ? No, not really. Do I want to see it happen ? Absolutely. Being tossed to the fire like Banchero/Franz have been is good for their development. That’s if you’re mentally strong enough to shoulder that burden.

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

There's evidence to seriously question whether Scottie could do what those guys are currently doing on the Magic. For starters, he just isn't as skilled as those guys at initiating offense (e.g. breaking his man down off the bounce, creating his own shot, etc.). Banchero is a better isolation player who can get to the line and Franz is a much better PnR ball handler. Scottie is still a tiertiary, attack against a tilted defense or post up a mismatch guy. You're not building an offense out of that. He has a ways to go in skill development, particularly ball handling and shooting, before we consider that.

He can get to his paint hook shot anytime.

[hype_2004]

I was in firm belief that Ujiri would clean house by the trade deadline by having no Fred and Pascal. Getting rid of the remnants of that 2019 team should have been his priority. Pascal and Fred's ego and pride will always hamper Scottie's development because these 2 guys have earned their spot and feel entitled because of it. They have that"we won a ring and you haven't" mentality and in their mind give them the right to do whatever they want on the floor. Ujiri will need to address this in the offseason, Pascal and Fred needs to go, treadmilling for playoff revenue is not what this team needs to do going forward. We need a full rebuild that will get us to the promise land once more.

[Reeko]

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

"He could, but just doesn't want to" isn't as ringing an endorsement as you think. It's moot as he clearly doesn't have the skillset right now to be the focal point. Can't be done without a jumper or consistent ability to break down the defense. I'm a big fan, I think he has a lot of promise - but a lot of flaws too.

Who said anything about doesn’t want to? He’s got vets ahead of him and the Raps aren’t the 5th worst team in the league. It’s not about his aspiration, it’s about his situation.

[HumbleRen]

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

"He could, but just doesn't want to" isn't as ringing an endorsement as you think. It's moot as he clearly doesn't have the skillset right now to be the focal point. Can't be done without a jumper or consistent ability to break down the defense. I'm a big fan, I think he has a lot of promise - but a lot of flaws too.

Yep.

[brownbobcat]

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

"He could, but just doesn't want to" isn't as ringing an endorsement as you think. It's moot as he clearly doesn't have the skillset right now to be the focal point. Can't be done without a jumper or consistent ability to break down the defense. I'm a big fan, I think he has a lot of promise - but a lot of flaws too.

Who said anything about doesn’t want to? He’s got vets ahead of him and the Raps aren’t the 5th worst team in the league. It’s not about his aspiration, it’s about his situation.

The Raptors are 1 win ahead of being 6th worst in the league. Opportunity isn't what's holding him back, it's technical skill. When does Scottie ever need to be defended with a double in the half-court? The answer is never.

He plays a ton of minutes and he does get to handle the ball. When he gets his chances to initiate, the results have been inconsistent to say the least. It's not as if he's out there cooking guys and only gets held back because FVV/Siakam freeze him out. He can't create enough space for himself relative to his shotmaking abilities. And truth be told, his "ranking" within his draft class is irrelevant. They couldn't draft Mobley and Scottie's as good as anyone that came after. Personally I still take him ahead of Wagner with flaws and all, but his skillset screams complementary right now.

[Raps in 4]

If it were true, I'd have no problem acknowledging it. Fact of the matter is that there's very little evidence to support that assertion. Franz and Banchero are the focal points of the offense of the 5th worst team in the NBA, pretty sure Scottie could do that. It's not like efficiency (in the case of Banchero) or team success is a prerequisite here. There's no reason to believe that Scottie couldn't have the same "success" or lack thereof as the focal point of the offense.

"He could, but just doesn't want to" isn't as ringing an endorsement as you think. It's moot as he clearly doesn't have the skillset right now to be the focal point. Can't be done without a jumper or consistent ability to break down the defense. I'm a big fan, I think he has a lot of promise - but a lot of flaws too.

Neither do Franz and Paolo. Hence why their team sucks.

They are the focal points of their team's offence by virtue of there being no one better on their rebuilding team. Not because they actually have the skills to be good focal points.

Franz has had a better season than Scottie so far, but I'd argue Scottie is still the more talented player with more potential. Paolo has been no better than Scottie.

[brownbobcat]

Neither do Franz and Paolo. Hence why their team sucks.

They are the focal points of their team's offence by virtue of there being no one better on their rebuilding team. Not because they actually have the skills to be good focal points.

Don't conflate their team sucking with their skillsets. Every player has their flaws, but anyone who's watched Banchero can tell he's easily showing more promise as an unguardable scorer. Has similar shooting issues, but much more fluid and gets all the way to the rim with ease.

[Raps in 4]

"He could, but just doesn't want to" isn't as ringing an endorsement as you think. It's moot as he clearly doesn't have the skillset right now to be the focal point. Can't be done without a jumper or consistent ability to break down the defense. I'm a big fan, I think he has a lot of promise - but a lot of flaws too.

Who said anything about doesn’t want to? He’s got vets ahead of him and the Raps aren’t the 5th worst team in the league. It’s not about his aspiration, it’s about his situation.

The Raptors are 1 win ahead of being 6th worst in the league. Opportunity isn't what's holding him back, it's technical skill. When does Scottie ever need to be defended with a double in the half-court? The answer is never.

He plays a ton of minutes and he does get to handle the ball. When he gets his chances to initiate, the results have been inconsistent to say the least. It's not as if he's out there cooking guys and only gets held back because FVV/Siakam freeze him out. He can't create enough space for himself relative to his shotmaking abilities. And truth be told, his "ranking" within his draft class is irrelevant. They couldn't draft Mobley and Scottie's as good as anyone that came after. Personally I still take him ahead of Wagner with flaws and all, but his skillset screams complementary right now.

Opportunity is absolutely what's holding him back from having the same usage rate as Wagner and Banchero and being the focal point of a losing team.

Scottie: 20%
Wagner: 24%
Banchero: 28%

Remove Pascal, FVV, and OG from the team, and Scottie will see just as much meaningless usage as those guys.

[Raps in 4]

Neither do Franz and Paolo. Hence why their team sucks.

They are the focal points of their team's offence by virtue of there being no one better on their rebuilding team. Not because they actually have the skills to be good focal points.

Don't conflate their team sucking with their skillsets. Every player has their flaws, but anyone who's watched Banchero can tell he's easily showing more promise as an unguardable scorer. Has similar shooting issues, but much more fluid and gets all the way to the rim with ease.

Your assessment isn't based on results. He's sucked this season, as has Scottie. Describing a player as fluid or unguardable means nothing. Those are subjective observations.