Which active player is higher on your ATG list?

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Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#1 » by penbeast0 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:53 pm

1. Giannis v. Durant

2. Jokic v. Harden

Please include an explanation of the criteria you used to get you to your conclusion.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#2 » by eminence » Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:08 pm

KD and Harden for me, I’m a pretty big longevity guy, so not too surprising. I do think both of the others are on pace to reasonably get by them in the near future
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#3 » by GeorgeMarcus » Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:17 pm

Ditto what eminence said
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#4 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:01 pm

I'd say roughly KD at 18-20, Giannis at 27-32
Harden at 30-34 and Jokic at 40-50(higher in that range if he has a great playoff+ring).
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#5 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:09 pm

eminence wrote:KD and Harden for me, I’m a pretty big longevity guy, so not too surprising. I do think both of the others are on pace to reasonably get by them in the near future


I wouldn't call myself a big longevity guy, but as of 2022 I'd agree with you.

I'd say Jokic is closer to passing Harden up than Giannis is to KD, but would agree that both passes are well within the realm of possibility before all is said and done.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#6 » by dygaction » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:22 pm

They are all volatile as I value achievements greatly on ATG.
Durant 12-15; Giannis 12-17; Harden 20-30; Jokic 15-30 after this summer
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#7 » by rk2023 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:26 am

Harden / Durant for now, but as Jokic and Giannis respectively accrue more quality prime seasons, I think this provides enough lee-way to change views on such.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#8 » by SpreeS » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:57 am

dygaction wrote:They are all volatile as I value achievements greatly on ATG.
Durant 12-15; Giannis 12-17; Harden 20-30; Jokic 15-30 after this summer


Could you write places for

Kawhi
Paul
Doncic
Curry
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#9 » by dygaction » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:52 am

SpreeS wrote:
dygaction wrote:They are all volatile as I value achievements greatly on ATG.
Durant 12-15; Giannis 12-17; Harden 20-30; Jokic 15-30 after this summer


Could you write places for

Kawhi
Paul
Doncic
Curry


Very subjective, at the end of this season
Kawhi 20-30, no MVP and part time
Paul 25-30
Doncic n/a, too early to rank
Curry 8-11
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#10 » by SpreeS » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:28 am

dygaction wrote:
SpreeS wrote:
dygaction wrote:They are all volatile as I value achievements greatly on ATG.
Durant 12-15; Giannis 12-17; Harden 20-30; Jokic 15-30 after this summer


Could you write places for

Kawhi
Paul
Doncic
Curry


Very subjective, at the end of this season
Kawhi 20-30, no MVP and part time
Paul 25-30
Doncic n/a, too early to rank
Curry 8-11


Which era's players do you rate the worst? For me all these players are too high except Paul.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#11 » by Jaivl » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:19 am

1. Giannis v. Durant

Currently have Giannis #35, Durant #21
Assuming a normal 2023 season, Giannis #25, Durant #19 (up to maybe #17 if fully healthy).
Peak-wise I have Giannis ahead (#18 vs #26).

2. Jokic v. Harden

Currently have Jokic #50, Harden #28
Assuming a normal 2023 season, Jokic #36, Harden #26
Peak-wise I have Jokic ahead (#17 vs #31).

Jokic is still a tough nut to crack in terms of his championship potential (D), but, as I'm very high on his offense, my evaluaton is clearly on the "believers" side. My #17 is generous and subject to change after this season, I think anything down to ~30 is perfectly reasonable. I don't think he has a realistic argument over Harden yet.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#12 » by Colbinii » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:09 pm

I have Durant comfortably ahead of Giannis and Harden comfortably ahead of Jokic but I also don't include this season into my calculations.

Giannis can get up to Wade levels after this year while Jokic is about 2 years behind Giannis in terms of value.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#13 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:39 pm

As a longevity guy I have to go with Durant and Harden but as a basketball fan I hope Giannis and Jokic pass them sooner than later lol
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#14 » by SkyHookFTW » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:41 pm

eminence wrote:KD and Harden for me, I’m a pretty big longevity guy, so not too surprising. I do think both of the others are on pace to reasonably get by them in the near future

I'm on board with this.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#15 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:51 pm

I usually advocate for guys with relatively short careers because I feel like this board can sometimes become a bit too focuesed on longevity and "career value" but that doesn't mean longevity isn't still an important factor in my evaluations. When there is a large difference in peak performance I tend to side with peaks over longevity. For example Paul Pierce has played more career games than Jokic and Giannis combined but he never came close to reaching the MVP-level Giannis and Jokic have already been playing at for multiple years so I just don't see how playing more games at a lower level is more important than guys just generally being a tier or two better. For outlier seasons like 03 T-Mac or careers that were derailed by injuries or other stuff after like 2-3 seasons of prime play like Walton it's not as clear cut but I think we're at a point now with Giannis and Jokic that they've clearly shown that their performance isn't just a fluke and barring career ending injuries they're well on their way to top 20 resumes, if not even higher.

That said I'm still going with KD and Harden here and I don't think it's too close either. Peak KD and Harden might be a tad below Giannis and Jokic but KD and Harden have been playing at MVP candidate/All-NBA 1st team level for over a decade. I do think Jokic and especially Giannis are well on their way but I can't take them over guys of a similar level with like a 5-year lead.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#16 » by dygaction » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:14 pm

SpreeS wrote:
dygaction wrote:
SpreeS wrote:
Could you write places for

Kawhi
Paul
Doncic
Curry


Very subjective, at the end of this season
Kawhi 20-30, no MVP and part time
Paul 25-30
Doncic n/a, too early to rank
Curry 8-11


Which era's players do you rate the worst? For me all these players are too high except Paul.


50/70/60/90/80/10/00 roughly. I give quite heavier weight to accolades, peak and prime, but less on longevity as all star level for ATGs.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#17 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:04 pm

penbeast0 wrote:1. Giannis v. Durant

2. Jokic v. Harden

Please include an explanation of the criteria you used to get you to your conclusion.



Giannis and Jokic

Giannis isn't as skilled, but he does more without the ball and he has won a title with less talent around him. They put up some similar impact numbers, but Giannis separates himself with his unique size + athleticism that allows him to do so much more without the ball. He also seems like a much better teammate and much easier to manage/coach. That's HUGE when it comes to building chemistry and winning games.

Jokic and Harden is closer for me. Jokic is a bigger defensive liability and he plays a much more important position on defense. It's a huge red flag. However, he has been more dominant and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he fails a few more times. Big men take longer to develop and usually win later in their career.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#18 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:08 pm

Giannis and Jokic by a country mile each. Giannis was clearly the best player in the league the year he won his ring and has been top 3 most of the surrounding years putting up all-time stats while playing elite D. Durant hasn’t been a top 3 player since 2014, was never the best player in the league and puts up slightly worse numbers with much less impactful defense.

Jokic was clearly the best player in the league last season and is again this season, completely dominates the advanced metrics, has better box stats than Harden, has an impact this season in on/off that’s more than twice what Harden ever managed, is a much better defender than Harden, and tends to come up very clutch in the playoffs whereas Harden tends to choke.

I have Giannis #9 on my all-time list and Durant #25.

I have Jokic #21 on my all-time list and Harden somewhere outside the top 30. (30 is as many players as I ranked.) I’m guessing he’d be somewhere in the top 40, but the playoff chokes really do work against him.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#19 » by Ein Sof » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:16 pm

KD and Harden.

They beat Giannis and Jokic by 10k pts each.
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Re: Which active player is higher on your ATG list? 

Post#20 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:30 pm

For some reason, it seems like the longevity thing is always held against the modern guys more when really it should be the opposite. If your career's over, lack of longevity is an actual problem with your career that will never be fixed. If you're active, it makes more sense that we recognize the player when they show themselves clearly to be better and assume that they should be able to provide at least a little bit of value in the future. I like to use a 3-year rule. If someone's shown themselves to clearly be better than the players above them ever reached for 3 years and that player doesn't have exceptional longevity above and beyond what would be expected than I feel like the modern guy's proven himself.

Bill Walton has 5000 less career minutes than Jokic and he only had one healthy playoff run as a starter, but no one has a problem with him in the top 100 because his career's over and he touched greatness. Meanwhile, Jokic led the playoffs in PER, WS/48, and BPM in 2019, led an incredible conference finals run in 2020, then followed that up with one of the greatest 3 year runs in the history of the league where he's forcing people to give him back-to-back-to-back MVPs as they desperately look for another candidate, and people aren't sure if he's in the top 40 yet? Come on. How many years did Harden have that really mattered anyway? Maybe 2014-2020 at most? Then he sulked his way out of Houston, was hurt all through his Brooklyn run, and had a terrible playoffs in Philly last year.

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