Saddiq with Atlanta

[Rodman]

The point of this thread and the article that was originally referenced was to point out how this coaching staff failed to develop Saddiq to the level he is now producing at. The question was it a failure to recognize his skillset or a failure to make him play to his skillset. Furthermore, if it was failure on behalf of the coaching staff why would anyone believe that Casey should be entrusted with the development of the rest of the young guys.I

[kierkegaard]

The only thing that gave me pause about the trade, all things considered (such as defense, lack of proper development under Casey, pending contract, etc), was that he had a 50 point game. True it was against Orlando under their own first year head coach. But not just anyone can go out and drop 50 in the league. That was microwave like. And if we could all roll back the reels of time inside our heads, I bet, given his rookie season, that most of us were not really surprised.

Despite his defensive liabilities, if forced to be only a sharp shooter on a good team where there are ample other distractions for the defense, I think he can be a valuable player, particularly come playoff time.

Regarding his defense, I don't he has the athleticism to do much better - so it's not an effort thing. Has anyone else noticed that he kind of walks off his heals. He has no natural bounciness and/or twitch.

[Manocad]

The point of this thread and the article that was originally referenced was to point out how this coaching staff failed to develop Saddiq to the level he is now producing at. The question was it a failure to recognize his skillset or a failure to make him play to his skillset. Furthermore, if it was failure on behalf of the coaching staff why would anyone believe that Casey should be entrusted with the development of the rest of the young guys.I

In 11 games with Atlanta Saddiq is averaging 11.8 PPG on 50.6%/50.0% shooting in 26.3 MPG. In 204 games with Detroit he averaged 14.5 PPG on 40.4%/36.3% shooting in 30.0 MPG. What exactly do you believe Atlanta's coaching staff did to improve his shooting slightly in 11 games during his 3rd year in the league? And how's his defense?

Let's slow the roll on the rhetoric that Atlanta has somehow achieved some magical "development" of Bey that Detroit couldn't. It's been ELEVEN GAMES.

[bstein14]

The point of this thread and the article that was originally referenced was to point out how this coaching staff failed to develop Saddiq to the level he is now producing at. The question was it a failure to recognize his skillset or a failure to make him play to his skillset. Furthermore, if it was failure on behalf of the coaching staff why would anyone believe that Casey should be entrusted with the development of the rest of the young guys.I

In 11 games with Atlanta Saddiq is averaging 11.8 PPG on 50.6%/50.0% shooting in 26.3 MPG. In 204 games with Detroit he averaged 14.5 PPG on 40.4%/36.3% shooting in 30.0 MPG. What exactly do you believe Atlanta's coaching staff did to improve his shooting slightly in 11 games during his 3rd year in the league? And how's his defense?

Let's slow the roll on the rhetoric that Atlanta has somehow achieved some magical "development" of Bey that Detroit couldn't. It's been ELEVEN GAMES.

Exactly, by that metric the Warriors, who developed Curry, Thompson, Green, etc..... are trash at developing Wiseman who is performing much better with Detroit. Same goes for Sacramento and Bagley.... sometimes its just about being put in the right spot and given a chance to succeed.

[theBigLip]

The point of this thread and the article that was originally referenced was to point out how this coaching staff failed to develop Saddiq to the level he is now producing at. The question was it a failure to recognize his skillset or a failure to make him play to his skillset. Furthermore, if it was failure on behalf of the coaching staff why would anyone believe that Casey should be entrusted with the development of the rest of the young guys.I

In 11 games with Atlanta Saddiq is averaging 11.8 PPG on 50.6%/50.0% shooting in 26.3 MPG. In 204 games with Detroit he averaged 14.5 PPG on 40.4%/36.3% shooting in 30.0 MPG. What exactly do you believe Atlanta's coaching staff did to improve his shooting slightly in 11 games during his 3rd year in the league? And how's his defense?

Let's slow the roll on the rhetoric that Atlanta has somehow achieved some magical "development" of Bey that Detroit couldn't. It's been ELEVEN GAMES.

Totally agree on that. It probably has a lot more to do with the fact Atlanta has other players that need defensive attention. I haven’t watched Bey much in Atlanta but I’m sure he’s getting better looks.

[Rodman]

Do not bring Wiseman into the discussion. Golden State was in pursuit of another championship, and they felt they did not have time to wait on Wiseman to develop defensively; in his 60 something game audition. Additionally, it appears Wiseman was also let go b/c of the cost. Now about Bey. What do I think Atlanta MIGHT be doing differently with Bey? I don' know. How about take shots you can make. How about if your field goal % is low 40.s you are not playing. How about stop dribble driving 25 ft away from the basket. You are not that guy.

[Uncle Mxy]

I suspect Bey reverts to the mean. Even after his hot stretch in Atlanta, his numbers this season are about the same as his overall career averages.

[SuperBad]

I always liked Bey, I think he just getting on a good run with Atlanta, he’ll come down again then back up, he seems like a good professional ball player that just wanted a slight overpay, that we can’t afford because we got better things coming.

[JNewton]

I always liked Bey, I think he just getting on a good run with Atlanta, he’ll come down again then back up, he seems like a good professional ball player that just wanted a slight overpay, that we can’t afford because we got better things coming.

I agree with this. I was a Bey fan as well, and appreciated the effort he put in during the early days of the rebuild. I can understand the Pistons not wanting to be the team paying his next contract though, especially with them likely believing they can get similar production out of Livers at a smaller cap hit - if he can ever stay healthy.

[Billl]

The atlanta Bey getting kickouts from their guards and knocking down shots looks a whole lot like the rookie bey getting kickouts from blake and Rose and knocking down shots. You can certainly argue that should have been his role all along, but I wouldn't call that "development".

[Mr Peanut]

He's been more efficient with his shooting as the Hawks system means he gets less (but more open) looks. And he's doing less of those wild drives and missed layups that we had to deal with. His defense is still low quality though. He is going to be extended for somewhere around the 18-20M/yr mark and I'm glad that we won't be on the hook for that.

[Invictus88]

He's been more efficient with his shooting as the Hawks system means he gets less (but more open) looks. And he's doing less of those wild drives and missed layups that we had to deal with. His defense is still low quality though. He is going to be extended for somewhere around the 18-20M/yr mark and I'm glad that we won't be on the hook for that.

So basically if I am understanding things correctly:

1. Bey starts out his career and is given extra minutes to develop skills as a 3 & D. He excels at shooting spot up 3s but fails at defense.
2. He is then given and or takes the opportunity to try and develop further skills by way of driving / etc for the next 2 years. He is unsuccessful here.
3. He is then traded to an Atlanta team that basically makes him play the same style as his 1st year when he was successful. He responds in kind; His defense still sucks.
4. Folks on this board somehow view this as a failing of Weaver/Casey to properly develop Bey.

I have the following questions to ask these folk:

Q1. Is the development failure viewed as Bey failing to develop driving skills / furthering his offensive skill set?
Comment: Atlanta isn't even allowing him to do this at all. So it can't be this

Q2. Is it his failure to develop defensive skills?
Comment: Can't be. He still sucks at this in Atlanta too.

Q3. Is it the fact that Atlanta has better personnel to surround Bey with / doesn't allow him to do things he is bad at?
Comment: How is this considered development at all? Sure, it translates to more wins but that has nothing to do with whether Bey is actually gaining new skills / growth as a player.

Q4. Does Bey's play justify what he is reportedly asking for in terms of a new salary?
Comment: Hahahaha. No. Thank goodness this isn't the Pistons problem and we even got a possible asset back in return to boot.

Q5. How are some commenters on this board so bad at distinguishing between win and loss records and player development? Especially this year when we are clearly tanking?

[mattao313]

He's been more efficient with his shooting as the Hawks system means he gets less (but more open) looks. And he's doing less of those wild drives and missed layups that we had to deal with. His defense is still low quality though. He is going to be extended for somewhere around the 18-20M/yr mark and I'm glad that we won't be on the hook for that.

So basically if I am understanding things correctly:

1. Bey starts out his career and is given extra minutes to develop skills as a 3 & D. He excels at shooting spot up 3s but fails at defense.
2. He is then given and or takes the opportunity to try and develop further skills by way of driving / etc for the next 2 years. He is unsuccessful here.
3. He is then traded to an Atlanta team that basically makes him play the same style as his 1st year when he was successful. He responds in kind; His defense still sucks.
4. Folks on this board somehow view this as a failing of Weaver/Casey to properly develop Bey.

I have the following questions to ask these folk:

Q1. Is the development failure viewed as Bey failing to develop driving skills / furthering his offensive skill set?
Comment: Atlanta isn't even allowing him to do this at all. So it can't be this

Q2. Is it his failure to develop defensive skills?
Comment: Can't be. He still sucks at this in Atlanta too.

Q3. Is it the fact that Atlanta has better personnel to surround Bey with / doesn't allow him to do things he is bad at?
Comment: How is this considered development at all? Sure, it translates to more wins but that has nothing to do with whether Bey is actually gaining new skills / growth as a player.

Q4. Does Bey's play justify what he is reportedly asking for in terms of a new salary?
Comment: Hahahaha. No. Thank goodness this isn't the Pistons problem and we even got a possible asset back in return to boot.

Q5. How are some commenters on this board so bad at distinguishing between win and loss records and player development? Especially this year when we are clearly tanking?

If a guy whole play style and role coming out of college is a 3&d guy why in the world would you give him the green light to dribble around and create? It's stupid terrible development. Let guys excel at their role.

Its the same as if we took Duren and stuck him in the corner to shoot 3s. Wtf no let him be a rim running garbage man. Just because a guy is young doesn't mean he's got star potential. Look at the spurs they don't let their guys run wild and they do a good job of developing guys.

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[Invictus88]

He's been more efficient with his shooting as the Hawks system means he gets less (but more open) looks. And he's doing less of those wild drives and missed layups that we had to deal with. His defense is still low quality though. He is going to be extended for somewhere around the 18-20M/yr mark and I'm glad that we won't be on the hook for that.

So basically if I am understanding things correctly:

1. Bey starts out his career and is given extra minutes to develop skills as a 3 & D. He excels at shooting spot up 3s but fails at defense.
2. He is then given and or takes the opportunity to try and develop further skills by way of driving / etc for the next 2 years. He is unsuccessful here.
3. He is then traded to an Atlanta team that basically makes him play the same style as his 1st year when he was successful. He responds in kind; His defense still sucks.
4. Folks on this board somehow view this as a failing of Weaver/Casey to properly develop Bey.

I have the following questions to ask these folk:

Q1. Is the development failure viewed as Bey failing to develop driving skills / furthering his offensive skill set?
Comment: Atlanta isn't even allowing him to do this at all. So it can't be this

Q2. Is it his failure to develop defensive skills?
Comment: Can't be. He still sucks at this in Atlanta too.

Q3. Is it the fact that Atlanta has better personnel to surround Bey with / doesn't allow him to do things he is bad at?
Comment: How is this considered development at all? Sure, it translates to more wins but that has nothing to do with whether Bey is actually gaining new skills / growth as a player.

Q4. Does Bey's play justify what he is reportedly asking for in terms of a new salary?
Comment: Hahahaha. No. Thank goodness this isn't the Pistons problem and we even got a possible asset back in return to boot.

Q5. How are some commenters on this board so bad at distinguishing between win and loss records and player development? Especially this year when we are clearly tanking?

If a guy whole play style and role coming out of college is a 3&d guy why in the world would you give him the green light to dribble around and create? It's stupid terrible development. Let guys excel at their role.

Its the same as if we took Duren and stuck him in the corner to shoot 3s. Wtf no let him be a rim running garbage man. Just because a guy is young doesn't mean he's got star potential. Look at the spurs they don't let their guys run wild and they do a good job of developing guys.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

So you are saying we shouldn't ever let players try out new things and expand their game? Especially during seasons where it's obvious to everyone involved that wins aren't the priority?

Just to be clear: you couldn't be more wrong about the Spurs and the development of Kawhi Leonard is the biggest example of this.
He came into the league as primarily a defensive player with very few known offensive skills. According to your rationale he should never have been allowed to try or develop anything further than that.

And it would be incredibly stupid if all we did with Duren is let him be a rim-running garbage man. That's the antithesis of player development. No. We have him try things in controlled spurts to see what else he is capable of.

[mattao313]

So basically if I am understanding things correctly:

1. Bey starts out his career and is given extra minutes to develop skills as a 3 & D. He excels at shooting spot up 3s but fails at defense.
2. He is then given and or takes the opportunity to try and develop further skills by way of driving / etc for the next 2 years. He is unsuccessful here.
3. He is then traded to an Atlanta team that basically makes him play the same style as his 1st year when he was successful. He responds in kind; His defense still sucks.
4. Folks on this board somehow view this as a failing of Weaver/Casey to properly develop Bey.

I have the following questions to ask these folk:

Q1. Is the development failure viewed as Bey failing to develop driving skills / furthering his offensive skill set?
Comment: Atlanta isn't even allowing him to do this at all. So it can't be this

Q2. Is it his failure to develop defensive skills?
Comment: Can't be. He still sucks at this in Atlanta too.

Q3. Is it the fact that Atlanta has better personnel to surround Bey with / doesn't allow him to do things he is bad at?
Comment: How is this considered development at all? Sure, it translates to more wins but that has nothing to do with whether Bey is actually gaining new skills / growth as a player.

Q4. Does Bey's play justify what he is reportedly asking for in terms of a new salary?
Comment: Hahahaha. No. Thank goodness this isn't the Pistons problem and we even got a possible asset back in return to boot.

Q5. How are some commenters on this board so bad at distinguishing between win and loss records and player development? Especially this year when we are clearly tanking?

If a guy whole play style and role coming out of college is a 3&d guy why in the world would you give him the green light to dribble around and create? It's stupid terrible development. Let guys excel at their role.

Its the same as if we took Duren and stuck him in the corner to shoot 3s. Wtf no let him be a rim running garbage man. Just because a guy is young doesn't mean he's got star potential. Look at the spurs they don't let their guys run wild and they do a good job of developing guys.

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So you are saying we shouldn't ever let players try out new things and expand their game? Especially during seasons where it's obvious to everyone involved that wins aren't the priority?

Just to be clear: you couldn't be more wrong about the Spurs and the development of Kawhi Leonard is the biggest example of this.
He came into the league as primarily a defensive player with very few known offensive skills. According to your rationale he should never have been allowed to try or develop anything further than that.

And it would be incredibly stupid if all we did with Duren is let him be a rim-running garbage man. That's the antithesis of player development. No. We have him try things in controlled spurts to see what else he is capable of.

No give guys roles to excel at first then after that perhaps give them more. Bey had one as a role player then all of a sudden he's Tatum out there stinking up the joint.

Also kawhi was literally a role player for like 3 years before he got the green light for anything.

Giving guys these expanded role makes entitled players look at Drummond the guys was a elite garbage man but turned into a crappy low post player because we "developed" him by giving him a role he shouldn't have.



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[440BB]

I think they projected Saddiq as a 3 and D player but without much D they tried to find another way he could be more valuable. Once they realized he's pretty much a 3 and limited D player they decided they weren't going to pay 20 million or more a season for that skillset and found a way out before his value declined further next season.

I think he will succeed in his role in Atlanta but will likely be a backup.

[Mr Peanut]

He's been more efficient with his shooting as the Hawks system means he gets less (but more open) looks. And he's doing less of those wild drives and missed layups that we had to deal with. His defense is still low quality though. He is going to be extended for somewhere around the 18-20M/yr mark and I'm glad that we won't be on the hook for that.

So basically if I am understanding things correctly:

1. Bey starts out his career and is given extra minutes to develop skills as a 3 & D. He excels at shooting spot up 3s but fails at defense.
2. He is then given and or takes the opportunity to try and develop further skills by way of driving / etc for the next 2 years. He is unsuccessful here.
3. He is then traded to an Atlanta team that basically makes him play the same style as his 1st year when he was successful. He responds in kind; His defense still sucks.
4. Folks on this board somehow view this as a failing of Weaver/Casey to properly develop Bey.

I have the following questions to ask these folk:

Q1. Is the development failure viewed as Bey failing to develop driving skills / furthering his offensive skill set?
Comment: Atlanta isn't even allowing him to do this at all. So it can't be this

Q2. Is it his failure to develop defensive skills?
Comment: Can't be. He still sucks at this in Atlanta too.

Q3. Is it the fact that Atlanta has better personnel to surround Bey with / doesn't allow him to do things he is bad at?
Comment: How is this considered development at all? Sure, it translates to more wins but that has nothing to do with whether Bey is actually gaining new skills / growth as a player.

Q4. Does Bey's play justify what he is reportedly asking for in terms of a new salary?
Comment: Hahahaha. No. Thank goodness this isn't the Pistons problem and we even got a possible asset back in return to boot.

Q5. How are some commenters on this board so bad at distinguishing between win and loss records and player development? Especially this year when we are clearly tanking?

I think there's probably a lot of differing opinions on where things went wrong with Bey. I think personally a portion of the blame has to go on Bey himself, but also Casey and to a lesser extent Weaver.

Bey because he hasn't really become an objectively better player since his rookie season and although our beat writers report he is a hard worker, and the coaching staff even had to tell him to take some time away from basketball in the off-season, he clearly didn't work on the right areas of his game to develop further (i.e. 3 point shooting and defense) and that failure to progress has to at least be in part attributed to him.

Some blame goes to Casey (and other coaching personnel) as he wasn't able to reel in the inefficient part of Bey's game such as his drives to the rim, and clearly the coaching staff in Atlanta have managed to get him to do away with this. So you have to ask the question what our coaches were asking of him/how they were letting him play.

Weaver to a lesser extent because his roster building meant that Bey was usually one of the top two offensive options on the floor (especially in his second and third seasons) and was allowed to be somewhat of an offensive black hole at times, rather than being in a role where he could succeed.

[BadMofoPimp]

I don't think it is coaching as much as having a PG in Trey that can draw defenders away and is a slick passer along with Murray.

[Manocad]

Do not bring Wiseman into the discussion. Golden State was in pursuit of another championship, and they felt they did not have time to wait on Wiseman to develop defensively; in his 60 something game audition. Additionally, it appears Wiseman was also let go b/c of the cost. Now about Bey. What do I think Atlanta MIGHT be doing differently with Bey? I don' know. How about take shots you can make. How about if your field goal % is low 40.s you are not playing. How about stop dribble driving 25 ft away from the basket. You are not that guy.

There is no discussion at this point.

1. It's been 11 games.
2. Clearly you feel there's blame to be assigned somewhere, as if the Pistons failed in some way because Bey was traded. Regardless of whether the Pistons asked him to do things that he couldn't do/play a role he wasn't good at, or he took that on himself, the answer could very simply be that the Pistons saw him as a piece that should be replaced.
3. Given Bey's inability to play any kind of defense, his presence lead to losses more often than wins.