Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Reeko]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

Except RJ has been an inefficient chucker his whole career, undersized...and his teams perform better when he's off the floor....he is the opposite of Scottie in all those things I've mentioned Scottie

I don't see the similarities

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Two totally different players with totally different approaches to the game. And if we're talking about efficiency, Scottie has been a more efficient player than RJ since day 1.

[HumbleRen]

The only similarities they have are that they both lack a traditional first step you want in your star players.

Outside of that, they’re both completely different lol. RJ wishes he can be anywhere near the passer that Scottie is.

[vulture]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

Except RJ has been an inefficient chucker his whole career, undersized...and his teams perform better when he's off the floor....he is the opposite of Scottie in all those things I've mentioned Scottie

I don't see the similarities

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Two totally different players with totally different approaches to the game. And if we're talking about efficiency, Scottie has been a more efficient player than RJ since day 1.

Not this season he’s not but that wasn’t the main point.

[Reeko]

Except RJ has been an inefficient chucker his whole career, undersized...and his teams perform better when he's off the floor....he is the opposite of Scottie in all those things I've mentioned Scottie

I don't see the similarities

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Two totally different players with totally different approaches to the game. And if we're talking about efficiency, Scottie has been a more efficient player than RJ since day 1.

Not this season he’s not but that wasn’t the main point.

Your point is that Scottie is inefficient in his current role, which is incorrect to begin with.

[vulture]

Two totally different players with totally different approaches to the game. And if we're talking about efficiency, Scottie has been a more efficient player than RJ since day 1.

Not this season he’s not but that wasn’t the main point.

Your point is that Scottie is inefficient in his current role, which is incorrect to begin with.

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

[Reeko]

Not this season he’s not but that wasn’t the main point.

Your point is that Scottie is inefficient in his current role, which is incorrect to begin with.

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

[Raps in 4]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

[vulture]

Your point is that Scottie is inefficient in his current role, which is incorrect to begin with.

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

We can ignore true shooting all we want but other teams don’t even guard him when on the perimeter. FVV and pascal are better passers imo. Scottie is basically a connector on offense.

He’s a below average player on both sides of the ball at the moment.

[vulture]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

[Reeko]

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

We can ignore true shooting all we want but other teams don’t even guard him when on the perimeter. FVV and pascal are better passers imo. Scottie is basically a connector on offense.

He’s a below average player on both sides of the ball at the moment.

Most advanced stats would point to that being a false statement.

[pingpongrac]

Your point is that Scottie is inefficient in his current role, which is incorrect to begin with.

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

Scottie has quite literally been the least efficient rotation player on the team for almost the entire season according to TS%. And yes, TS% has always been used as a barometer for how efficient a player is since its inception. I personally think it's important to also look at TOV% relating to USG% which helps Scottie's case a bit, but it's not enough to claim he has been anywhere close to efficient. The reality is his 52.5 TS% is even worse than Koloko (52.9 TS%) and Achiuwa (54.1 TS%) as we near the end of the season while he has the 2nd highest TOV% among rotation players (OG is #1) and averages 2-3 more TOV per 100 possessions than Siakam and FVV despite having the ball in his hands ~25% less.

Scottie is definitely the most talented passer on the team and he has the highest ceiling as a playmaker, but that doesn't mean he is the BEST passer on the team right now. He makes multiple careless/stupid passes almost every game and that isn't necessarily something that he is going to fix by having the ball put in his hands even more frequently than it has been over the past few weeks (20.2 USG% pre-ASB vs 22.1 USG% post-ASB). What's more likely is his passing will improve over time as his scoring improves and he/the team has more space to operate with. If he can get to the level of shooting of Siakam over the past few years (38% on 3+ midrange attempts and 33% on 4+ 3FGA), his game will open up so much more. It's a big ask, but Scottie becoming a more willing and effective shooter outside of the paint is the quickest way to fast-track his development. That's the only way he is going to realistically get the ball more than he already does as he is bad as a PnR ball handler and in ISO situations while he doesn't drive very frequently at all right now. An improved jumper instantly makes him more of an all-around threat.

[Reeko]

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

Scottie has quite literally been the least efficient rotation player on the team for almost the entire season according to TS%. And yes, TS% has always been used as a barometer for how efficient a player is since its inception. I personally think it's important to also look at TOV% relating to USG% which helps Scottie's case a bit, but it's not enough to claim he has been anywhere close to efficient. The reality is his 52.5 TS% is even worse than Koloko (52.9 TS%) and Achiuwa (54.1 TS%) as we near the end of the season while he has the 2nd highest TOV% among rotation players (OG is #1) and averages 2-3 more TOV per 100 possessions than Siakam and FVV despite having the ball in his hands ~25% less.

Scottie is definitely the most talented passer on the team and he has the highest ceiling as a playmaker, but that doesn't mean he is the BEST passer on the team right now. He makes multiple careless/stupid passes almost every game and that isn't necessarily something that he is going to fix by having the ball put in his hands even more frequently than it has been over the past few weeks (20.2 USG% pre-ASB vs 22.1 USG% post-ASB). What's more likely is his passing will improve over time as his scoring improves and he/the team has more space to operate with. If he can get to the level of shooting of Siakam over the past few years (38% on 3+ midrange attempts and 33% on 4+ 3FGA), his game will open up so much more. It's a big ask, but Scottie becoming a more willing and effective shooter outside of the paint is the quickest way to fast-track his development. That's the only way he is going to realistically get the ball more than he already does as he is bad as a PnR ball handler and in ISO situations while he doesn't drive very frequently at all right now. An improved jumper instantly makes him more of an all-around threat.

Lowry has had multiple seasons with USG% in the same ball park as Scottie, and he's had a higher TOV% than Scottie in all of those seasons. Are you prepared to say that there were better passers on the Raptors than Lowry? Was DeMar DeRozan who surpassed him in USG% and had a lower TOV% in every season that they played together, a better passer than Kyle Lowry?

[CanadaB-Ball]

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

We can ignore true shooting all we want but other teams don’t even guard him when on the perimeter. FVV and pascal are better passers imo. Scottie is basically a connector on offense.

He’s a below average player on both sides of the ball at the moment.

None of what you wrote is true. Maybe try following a different sport, kid.

[pingpongrac]

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

Scottie has quite literally been the least efficient rotation player on the team for almost the entire season according to TS%. And yes, TS% has always been used as a barometer for how efficient a player is since its inception. I personally think it's important to also look at TOV% relating to USG% which helps Scottie's case a bit, but it's not enough to claim he has been anywhere close to efficient. The reality is his 52.5 TS% is even worse than Koloko (52.9 TS%) and Achiuwa (54.1 TS%) as we near the end of the season while he has the 2nd highest TOV% among rotation players (OG is #1) and averages 2-3 more TOV per 100 possessions than Siakam and FVV despite having the ball in his hands ~25% less.

Scottie is definitely the most talented passer on the team and he has the highest ceiling as a playmaker, but that doesn't mean he is the BEST passer on the team right now. He makes multiple careless/stupid passes almost every game and that isn't necessarily something that he is going to fix by having the ball put in his hands even more frequently than it has been over the past few weeks (20.2 USG% pre-ASB vs 22.1 USG% post-ASB). What's more likely is his passing will improve over time as his scoring improves and he/the team has more space to operate with. If he can get to the level of shooting of Siakam over the past few years (38% on 3+ midrange attempts and 33% on 4+ 3FGA), his game will open up so much more. It's a big ask, but Scottie becoming a more willing and effective shooter outside of the paint is the quickest way to fast-track his development. That's the only way he is going to realistically get the ball more than he already does as he is bad as a PnR ball handler and in ISO situations while he doesn't drive very frequently at all right now. An improved jumper instantly makes him more of an all-around threat.

Lowry has had multiple seasons with USG% in the same ball park as Scottie, and he's had a higher TOV% than Scottie in all of those seasons. Are you prepared to say that there were better passers on the Raptors than Lowry? Was DeMar DeRozan who surpassed him in USG% and had a lower TOV% in every season that they played together, a better passer than Kyle Lowry?

No, but it's also important to see how those turnovers are caused. Lowry was typically the primary ball handler and made almost twice as many passes as DeRozan (Lowry averaged 62 passes per game whereas DeRozan averaged 36 passes per game). Lowry was averaging 40 passes and 4.4 assists per bad pass turnover whereas DeRozan was averaging 39 passes and 4.6 assists per bad pass turnover. The numbers are almost identical, but Lowry gets the clear edge because of the eye test as well as the much higher volume of passes; just how you tend to see a decrease in efficiency as a player's usage goes up, you would expect to see a higher volume of turnovers from someone who has the ball in their hands to make plays so frequently.

Comparing Scottie with Siakam and FVV this season, the gap is much wider. Scottie is averaging 44 passes and 3.8 assists per bad pass turnover whereas Siakam is averaging 53 passes and 5.6 assists per bad pass turnover while FVV is averaging 61 passes and 6.8 assists per bad pass turnover. That's too big of a gap to completely write off the data considering the fact that they average a similar number of passes per game (63 for FVV, 56 for Scottie and 55 for Siakam).

There is a risk-reward payoff with making more tough passes and I am completely fine with most of those passes Scottie tries/makes. That doesn't mean he should be absolved of those passes that don't work though. Scottie is the flashiest passer, but he is also by far the most prone to bad passes which kind of brings into question: is he really the best passer on the team by quite a bit?

[vulture]

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

We can ignore true shooting all we want but other teams don’t even guard him when on the perimeter. FVV and pascal are better passers imo. Scottie is basically a connector on offense.

He’s a below average player on both sides of the ball at the moment.

None of what you wrote is true. Maybe try following a different sport, kid.

Make your case because you can’t.

[vulture]

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

Scottie has quite literally been the least efficient rotation player on the team for almost the entire season according to TS%. And yes, TS% has always been used as a barometer for how efficient a player is since its inception. I personally think it's important to also look at TOV% relating to USG% which helps Scottie's case a bit, but it's not enough to claim he has been anywhere close to efficient. The reality is his 52.5 TS% is even worse than Koloko (52.9 TS%) and Achiuwa (54.1 TS%) as we near the end of the season while he has the 2nd highest TOV% among rotation players (OG is #1) and averages 2-3 more TOV per 100 possessions than Siakam and FVV despite having the ball in his hands ~25% less.

Scottie is definitely the most talented passer on the team and he has the highest ceiling as a playmaker, but that doesn't mean he is the BEST passer on the team right now. He makes multiple careless/stupid passes almost every game and that isn't necessarily something that he is going to fix by having the ball put in his hands even more frequently than it has been over the past few weeks (20.2 USG% pre-ASB vs 22.1 USG% post-ASB). What's more likely is his passing will improve over time as his scoring improves and he/the team has more space to operate with. If he can get to the level of shooting of Siakam over the past few years (38% on 3+ midrange attempts and 33% on 4+ 3FGA), his game will open up so much more. It's a big ask, but Scottie becoming a more willing and effective shooter outside of the paint is the quickest way to fast-track his development. That's the only way he is going to realistically get the ball more than he already does as he is bad as a PnR ball handler and in ISO situations while he doesn't drive very frequently at all right now. An improved jumper instantly makes him more of an all-around threat.

People really don’t want to say the truth of how disappointing Scottie has been this season.

Who was the last ROY who had this subpar of a second season? He’s not in great company guys and he sure as hell doesn’t deserve a bigger role.

[CanadaB-Ball]

We can ignore true shooting all we want but other teams don’t even guard him when on the perimeter. FVV and pascal are better passers imo. Scottie is basically a connector on offense.

He’s a below average player on both sides of the ball at the moment.

None of what you wrote is true. Maybe try following a different sport, kid.

Make your case because you can’t.

81st percentile in OEPM, 55th in DEPM, 76th in EPM, and 86th in eW.

0.3 O-LEBRON, 1.07 D-LEBRON, 1.36 LEBRON.

0.4 O-RAPTOR, 0.2 D-RAPTOR, 0.6 RAPTOR, 4.0 WAR.

-2.29 ORPM, 5.78 DRPM, 3.46 RPM.

74th percentile in CraftedOPM, 65th percentile in CraftedDPM.

95th percentile playmaker, who’s also the best passer on the Raptors: https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2023/03/13/scottie-barnes-is-one-of-the-worlds-best-passers/

Top 70 (of 341 qualified players) in consolidated impact ranking.

There you go, kid.

[Tha Cynic]

Not this season he’s not but that wasn’t the main point.

Your point is that Scottie is inefficient in his current role, which is incorrect to begin with.

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

What are you arguing here? Siakam and FVV are not efficient players either and trying this style has run its course. By your own logic the Raptors should try something different because the entire team has been below average for most of this season.

You also still don't seem to understand that people advocating this aren't asking Barnes to shoot 25 shots a game. In fact the hope is that his feel for the game will help others on this team grow and get better chemistry going while allowing Barnes to figure things out with his scoring.

[Tha Cynic]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

[Mikistan]

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

Scottie has quite literally been the least efficient rotation player on the team for almost the entire season according to TS%. And yes, TS% has always been used as a barometer for how efficient a player is since its inception. I personally think it's important to also look at TOV% relating to USG% which helps Scottie's case a bit, but it's not enough to claim he has been anywhere close to efficient. The reality is his 52.5 TS% is even worse than Koloko (52.9 TS%) and Achiuwa (54.1 TS%) as we near the end of the season while he has the 2nd highest TOV% among rotation players (OG is #1) and averages 2-3 more TOV per 100 possessions than Siakam and FVV despite having the ball in his hands ~25% less.

Scottie is definitely the most talented passer on the team and he has the highest ceiling as a playmaker, but that doesn't mean he is the BEST passer on the team right now. He makes multiple careless/stupid passes almost every game and that isn't necessarily something that he is going to fix by having the ball put in his hands even more frequently than it has been over the past few weeks (20.2 USG% pre-ASB vs 22.1 USG% post-ASB). What's more likely is his passing will improve over time as his scoring improves and he/the team has more space to operate with. If he can get to the level of shooting of Siakam over the past few years (38% on 3+ midrange attempts and 33% on 4+ 3FGA), his game will open up so much more. It's a big ask, but Scottie becoming a more willing and effective shooter outside of the paint is the quickest way to fast-track his development. That's the only way he is going to realistically get the ball more than he already does as he is bad as a PnR ball handler and in ISO situations while he doesn't drive very frequently at all right now. An improved jumper instantly makes him more of an all-around threat.

People really don’t want to say the truth of how disappointing Scottie has been this season.

Who was the last ROY who had this subpar of a second season? He’s not in great company guys and he sure as hell doesn’t deserve a bigger role.

The only people disappointed by him are those that don't understand context