Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Tha Cynic]

He’s 5% below league average true shooting. How is that not efficient?

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

We can ignore true shooting all we want but other teams don’t even guard him when on the perimeter. FVV and pascal are better passers imo. Scottie is basically a connector on offense.

He’s a below average player on both sides of the ball at the moment.

Teams guard him on the perimeter as much as they guard anyone on this team other than FVV or GTJ. In fact Barnes gets a similar treatment to Siakam and OG on the perimeter. You definitely cannot just ignore him because he will shoot. There was maybe a 3 or 4 game stretch where teams consistently tried to do this and then Barnes figured out a way to use that gap to get himself a running start. Teams immediately stopped after that.

All I'm seeing is people rehashing the same negative takes here even if those aren't the case anymore or even if their take doesn't have a better alternative for this team as a whole.

The way some of you keep saying he has to "earn it", you would think we had Doncic or Jokic on this team. Teams regularly trade players away to give younger players bigger opportunities because fact is, in every facet of the world, there are people who need to be moved for an up-and-comer. This is not just in basketball.

[ATLTimekeeper]

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

Fred and Siakam are much better offensive players. You aren't really losing anything by allowing Scottie time to develop his skillset. It's just work. What's his upside on offense? He has to prove that he can shoot or dribble in order to have the ball. You need at least one of those. That argument just hasn't changed.

[ATLTimekeeper]

You're going to find that most stats favour Siakam and Fred over Scottie on offense. More opportunity doesn't seem to make Barnes better. He seems to be incapable of running bench units without cover of better offensive players. Just needs to go and have an honest summer of work. There's more positives than negatives because he's stepped up defensively, but the Raptors want to avoid him having Ricky Rubio's career, or Iguodala's.

[vulture]

None of what you wrote is true. Maybe try following a different sport, kid.

Make your case because you can’t.

81st percentile in OEPM, 55th in DEPM, 76th in EPM, and 86th in eW.

0.3 O-LEBRON, 1.07 D-LEBRON, 1.36 LEBRON.

0.4 O-RAPTOR, 0.2 D-RAPTOR, 0.6 RAPTOR, 4.0 WAR.

-2.29 ORPM, 5.78 DRPM, 3.46 RPM.

74th percentile in CraftedOPM, 65th percentile in CraftedDPM.

95th percentile playmaker, who’s also the best passer on the Raptors: https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2023/03/13/scottie-barnes-is-one-of-the-worlds-best-passers/

Top 70 (of 341 qualified players) in consolidated impact ranking.

There you go, kid.

Thank you young man for cherry picking some stats.

What has he improved this season other than throwing a few more passes and the free throws ticking up?
Is he a starting caliber player on a good playoff team? Don't even get me started on the defense where he opens up his hips every time a player drives at him.

Season FG 2P 3P eFG FT TS FTr 3PAr
2021-22 0.492 0.543 0.301 0.524 0.735 0.552 0.231 0.207
2022-23 0.453 0.497 0.3 0.48 0.774 0.525 0.249 0.225

[vulture]

You're going to find that most stats favour Siakam and Fred over Scottie on offense. More opportunity doesn't seem to make Barnes better. He seems to be incapable of running bench units without cover of better offensive players. Just needs to go and have an honest summer of work. There's more positives than negatives because he's stepped up defensively, but the Raptors want to avoid him having Ricky Rubio's career, or Iguodala's.

To argue that FVV and Pascal are not that much better than Scottie is some crazy level bargnani delusion I haven't seen around here in a while.
Glad to know Cynic is back because I have stopped responding to that dude.

[Tha Cynic]

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

Fred and Siakam are much better offensive players. You aren't really losing anything by allowing Scottie time to develop his skillset. It's just work. What's his upside on offense? He has to prove that he can shoot or dribble in order to have the ball. You need at least one of those. That argument just hasn't changed.

The entire team is inefficient and I haven't checked in a month but when I had, the entire team was below league average after the half way point of this season. So, not only are you two apparent best players inefficient, they haven't done anything to make others around them efficient. You're definitely losing time there with development of younger players and even the possibility of trying something new on offense in preparation for next season.

Barnes has handled the ball and can get to where he needs to with the ball and he does shoot. He doesn't need to be Kyrie Irving to handle the ball.

This argument about handling bench and not showing anything is all false. He has been jerked back and forth by Nurse all season as has everyone. There's no denying that this team that has been together for 2 seasons has no chemistry. They look like a team playing in preseason together for the first time most nights. That's deeply concerning. You give a guy a true opportunity when you give him the ball and you adjust the system to fit his skills rather than try to have him play multiple positions (big man, to 3 and D wing, to running the bench one game to not even playing with the bench the next). This isn't giving anyone opportunity to take the reigns.

[pingpongrac]

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

I think it's pretty safe to say Siakam and FVV are better players right now lol. They have done more with more usage on higher efficiency for years. We should be putting the ball in Scottie's hands to create for others a bit more...but the problem is we have a large enough sample size over the course of the season that points to Scottie being a pretty mediocre offensive player outside of his passing and there's no reason to believe even more opportunities are going to magically make him a more efficient or effective player in the short term. Clearly the team is invested in him long-term and they want/hope for him to become the star of the team, but they are also not going to just turf the season at this point after they've already gone out and traded for a guy like Poeltl who has drastically improved the starting lineup as they try to make the playoffs.

Scottie is 248th among 271 qualified players (at least 2/3 GP of team's total) when it comes to TS% – and the majority of players worse than him are undersized guards and/or rookies. He is bad as a PnR ball handler (0.70 PPP and 18th percentile) and he is bad in transition (0.97 PPP and 20th percentile) while he hasn't been very good in ISOs (0.82 PPP and 32nd percentile) or post-ups (0.87 PPP and 35th percentile) either. By far, he has been at his best as a PnR roll man (1.33 PPP and 85th percentile) while he has been decent spotting up (1.01 PPP and 51st percentile). He averages 6.7 drives per game (4th on the team behind Siakam, FVV and OG) with 4.0 PTS (3rd) and 0.5 AST (4th) on those drives. Does any of that scream "he needs more touches and opportunities"? Everything points to Scottie being a pretty average offensive player this season all things considered yet he has more opportunities than most (95th in USG%, 25th in touches and 21st in MPG among those same 271 qualified players) despite being a worse all-around offensive player than the majority in the upper half of those categories.

The article about Scottie's passing was excellent. It was a deep dive into his abilities that showed what many people on this forum believe – Scottie has the best vision on the team and he reads the floor like a vet for the most part. The idea of advantage assists and high-reward turnovers leaves a lot of room for debate though. For instance, Tatum is one of the most prolific scorers in the league though he is just a decent passer at best. Looking at a 5-game sample size for Tatum (where he was averaging 33 PPG and 5 AST) compared to Scottie's entire season (where he is averaging 16 PPG and 5 AST) is a bit misleading. Obviously one can't do a deep dive into every single player in the league (and Samson clarified the point that it's not a perfect comparison), but it's pretty important to note that even a so-so passer in Tatum is generating more points off his passes (12.1 points per game) than Scottie (11.6 points per game) despite averaging marginally less assists and passes. There are other factors (mainly Boston being a significantly better three-point shooting team), but it's still worthwhile to mention.

Regarding the high-reward turnovers, there is no comparison to other players (on other teams or on our team) to see how Scottie stacks up when it comes to high-reward turnovers on passes vs low-reward turnovers on passes. Upon doing some of my own research on the bus this morning, I came to the conclusion that 23 (or 24-27 depending on how picky one wants to be) of FVV's 59 bad pass turnovers could be classified as high-reward turnovers (a dozen picked off passes to cutters in tight, 7 failed lobs, 3 or 4 cross-court passes picked off after collapsing the defence and 3 pitch-ahead passes in transition that ended up as empty trips). 23 of 59 (39%) for FVV isn't far off from 32 of 74 (43%) for Scottie. Considering the fact that FVV also has 80 more assists than Scottie, it's probably safe to assume that he has at least as many advantage assists. And this is why it's unreasonable to say Scottie is by far the best passer on the team. Other players (like FVV) are making just as many risky passes on a per game basis yet the difference in assists and bad pass turnovers is sizable. People seem to remember the 2-3 flashy passes that Scottie makes per game while also remembering the 2-3 times that FVV missed someone on the roll then take those few possessions as gospel.

[ItsDanger]

Your stats are useless when underlying variables are changed, what is this? Amateur hour?

[vulture]

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

I think it's pretty safe to say Siakam and FVV are better players right now lol. They have done more with more usage on higher efficiency for years. We should be putting the ball in Scottie's hands to create for others a bit more...but the problem is we have a large enough sample size over the course of the season that points to Scottie being a pretty mediocre offensive player outside of his passing and there's no reason to believe even more opportunities are going to magically make him a more efficient or effective player in the short term. Clearly the team is invested in him long-term and they want/hope for him to become the star of the team, but they are also not going to just turf the season at this point after they've already gone out and traded for a guy like Poeltl who has drastically improved the starting lineup as they try to make the playoffs.

Scottie is 248th among 271 qualified players (at least 2/3 GP of team's total) when it comes to TS% – and the majority of players worse than him are undersized guards and/or rookies. He is bad as a PnR ball handler (0.70 PPP and 18th percentile) and he is bad in transition (0.97 PPP and 20th percentile) while he hasn't been very good in ISOs (0.82 PPP and 32nd percentile) or post-ups (0.87 PPP and 35th percentile) either. By far, he has been at his best as a PnR roll man (1.33 PPP and 85th percentile) while he has been decent spotting up (1.01 PPP and 51st percentile). He averages 6.7 drives per game (4th on the team behind Siakam, FVV and OG) with 4.0 PTS (3rd) and 0.5 AST (4th) on those drives. Does any of that scream "he needs more touches and opportunities"? Everything points to Scottie being a pretty average offensive player this season all things considered yet he has more opportunities than most (95th in USG%, 25th in touches and 21st in MPG among those same 271 qualified players) despite being a worse all-around offensive player than the majority in the upper half of those categories.

The article about Scottie's passing was excellent. It was a deep dive into his abilities that showed what many people on this forum believe – Scottie has the best vision on the team and he reads the floor like a vet for the most part. The idea of advantage assists and high-reward turnovers leaves a lot of room for debate though. For instance, Tatum is one of the most prolific scorers in the league though he is just a decent passer at best. Looking at a 5-game sample size for Tatum (where he was averaging 33 PPG and 5 AST) compared to Scottie's entire season (where he is averaging 16 PPG and 5 AST) is a bit misleading. Obviously one can't do a deep dive into every single player in the league (and Samson clarified the point that it's not a perfect comparison), but it's pretty important to note that even a so-so passer in Tatum is generating more points off his passes (12.1 points per game) than Scottie (11.6 points per game) despite averaging marginally less assists and passes. There are other factors (mainly Boston being a significantly better three-point shooting team), but it's still worthwhile to mention.

Regarding the high-reward turnovers, there is no comparison to other players (on other teams or on our team) to see how Scottie stacks up when it comes to high-reward turnovers on passes vs low-reward turnovers on passes. Upon doing some of my own research on the bus this morning, I came to the conclusion that 23 (or 24-27 depending on how picky one wants to be) of FVV's 59 bad pass turnovers could be classified as high-reward turnovers (a dozen picked off passes to cutters in tight, 7 failed lobs, 3 or 4 cross-court passes picked off after collapsing the defence and 3 pitch-ahead passes in transition that ended up as empty trips). 23 of 59 (39%) for FVV isn't far off from 32 of 74 (43%) for Scottie. Considering the fact that FVV also has 80 more assists than Scottie, it's probably safe to assume that he has at least as many advantage assists. And this is why it's unreasonable to say Scottie is by far the best passer on the team. Other players (like FVV) are making just as many risky passes on a per game basis yet the difference in assists and bad pass turnovers is sizable. People seem to remember the 2-3 flashy passes that Scottie makes per game while also remembering the 2-3 times that FVV missed someone on the roll then take those few possessions as gospel.

Preach my brother!

[Tha Cynic]

You're going to find that most stats favour Siakam and Fred over Scottie on offense. More opportunity doesn't seem to make Barnes better. He seems to be incapable of running bench units without cover of better offensive players. Just needs to go and have an honest summer of work. There's more positives than negatives because he's stepped up defensively, but the Raptors want to avoid him having Ricky Rubio's career, or Iguodala's.

To argue that FVV and Pascal are not that much better than Scottie is some crazy level bargnani delusion I haven't seen around here in a while.
Glad to know Cynic is back because I have stopped responding to that dude.

I can't remember if you were on the side of Barngani or Calderon but I was vastly against both and preferred getting rid of Barngani and running Lowry over Calderon. Luckily, I got by wish when Colangelo was let go.

Also, I clearly asked the question about Siakam and FVV being that much better in a team context considering the team outlook. I can see that was ignored as then you have to answer why you and others are so hellbound on defending a treadmill over a pivot.

Last time I checked most are saying make the team worse today for a better team tomorrow. No one is saying Barnes is going to turn this team into a 50 win team next season.

Sometimes I think the objective on this board is about arguing for the trees over the forest just to find some way to say "I got you there". There are a lot of people hellbound on arguing for a treadmill status, and well I guess you should be happy then because, here we are.

[Tha Cynic]

Sure but he has better players ahead of him. Scottie has to put in the work to improve his game and show them he deserves the bigger load. He can’t even handle the role he’s in.

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

I think it's pretty safe to say Siakam and FVV are better players right now lol. They have done more with more usage on higher efficiency for years. We should be putting the ball in Scottie's hands to create for others a bit more...but the problem is we have a large enough sample size over the course of the season that points to Scottie being a pretty mediocre offensive player outside of his passing and there's no reason to believe even more opportunities are going to magically make him a more efficient or effective player in the short term. Clearly the team is invested in him long-term and they want/hope for him to become the star of the team, but they are also not going to just turf the season at this point after they've already gone out and traded for a guy like Poeltl who has drastically improved the starting lineup as they try to make the playoffs.

Scottie is 248th among 271 qualified players (at least 2/3 GP of team's total) when it comes to TS% – and the majority of players worse than him are undersized guards and/or rookies. He is bad as a PnR ball handler (0.70 PPP and 18th percentile) and he is bad in transition (0.97 PPP and 20th percentile) while he hasn't been very good in ISOs (0.82 PPP and 32nd percentile) or post-ups (0.87 PPP and 35th percentile) either. By far, he has been at his best as a PnR roll man (1.33 PPP and 85th percentile) while he has been decent spotting up (1.01 PPP and 51st percentile). He averages 6.7 drives per game (4th on the team behind Siakam, FVV and OG) with 4.0 PTS (3rd) and 0.5 AST (4th) on those drives. Does any of that scream "he needs more touches and opportunities"? Everything points to Scottie being a pretty average offensive player this season all things considered yet he has more opportunities than most (95th in USG%, 25th in touches and 21st in MPG among those same 271 qualified players) despite being a worse all-around offensive player than the majority in the upper half of those categories.

The article about Scottie's passing was excellent. It was a deep dive into his abilities that showed what many people on this forum believe – Scottie has the best vision on the team and he reads the floor like a vet for the most part. The idea of advantage assists and high-reward turnovers leaves a lot of room for debate though. For instance, Tatum is one of the most prolific scorers in the league though he is just a decent passer at best. Looking at a 5-game sample size for Tatum (where he was averaging 33 PPG and 5 AST) compared to Scottie's entire season (where he is averaging 16 PPG and 5 AST) is a bit misleading. Obviously one can't do a deep dive into every single player in the league (and Samson clarified the point that it's not a perfect comparison), but it's pretty important to note that even a so-so passer in Tatum is generating more points off his passes (12.1 points per game) than Scottie (11.6 points per game) despite averaging marginally less assists and passes. There are other factors (mainly Boston being a significantly better three-point shooting team), but it's still worthwhile to mention.

Regarding the high-reward turnovers, there is no comparison to other players (on other teams or on our team) to see how Scottie stacks up when it comes to high-reward turnovers on passes vs low-reward turnovers on passes. Upon doing some of my own research on the bus this morning, I came to the conclusion that 23 (or 24-27 depending on how picky one wants to be) of FVV's 59 bad pass turnovers could be classified as high-reward turnovers (a dozen picked off passes to cutters in tight, 7 failed lobs, 3 or 4 cross-court passes picked off after collapsing the defence and 3 pitch-ahead passes in transition that ended up as empty trips). 23 of 59 (39%) for FVV isn't far off from 32 of 74 (43%) for Scottie. Considering the fact that FVV also has 80 more assists than Scottie, it's probably safe to assume that he has at least as many advantage assists. And this is why it's unreasonable to say Scottie is by far the best passer on the team. Other players (like FVV) are making just as many risky passes on a per game basis yet the difference in assists and bad pass turnovers is sizable. People seem to remember the 2-3 flashy passes that Scottie makes per game while also remembering the 2-3 times that FVV missed someone on the roll then take those few possessions as gospel.

Dude, we all know Barnes is not a star today. No one argued that or even that he's going to take the reigns like he's Luka Doncic.

The understanding is that there will be growing pains, but this team needs a major change and start working towards that future rather than being stuck in the mud with two 29 year olds who aren't even consistent All-stars (which is the lowest form of a featured player who is well into their prime). In fact the Brooklyn Nets have a much better outlook than the Raptors right now and the Nets wouldn't trade Bridges for anyone on this team. That's how bad this team situation is and the team you're trying so hard to defend current state with no changes for.

We can keep going back and forth about Barnes' stats today or we can try talking about how we make this team better so we actually have a winning team that accomplishes something. If we're going to get excited everytime they beat a terrible team or take one from a good team and not realize the flaws of this team, then the organization can keep raising ticket prices while putting a bad product on the floor.

[HumbleRen]

Sometimes you just gotta throw a kid into the fire and see what he turns into.

Scottie may not be ready but this core isn't good enough to bring him along slowly.

Siakam/OG/FVV not getting first option reps when they were younger have stunted their ISO game development. They look like pussies when it comes to crunch time.

Bringing Scottie along slowly in a role player role isn't the move. Gotta let the kid fail repeatedly to get over the hump.

[Tha Cynic]

Sometimes you just gotta throw a kid into the fire and see what he turns into.

Scottie may not be ready but this core isn't good enough to bring him along slowly.

Siakam/OG/FVV not getting first option reps when they were younger have stunted their ISO game development. They look like pussies when it comes to crunch time.

Bringing Scottie along slowly in a role player role isn't the move. Gotta let the kid fail repeatedly to get over the hump.

This is a very good point. For as good as Siakam is as a scorer you can see he was developed like a role player. He has one or two move he uses in the midrange and if those are stopped he basically stands in the corner and disappears.

FVV is simply a jump shooter coming off screens at this stage with no other offensive skill as a scorer. He's basically the same player he was 3 years ago with a bit more maturity at times.

OG we don't even need to talk about. The dude looks awkward doing anything but shooting open 3s.

GTJ has one offensive move which is the chest bump to dislodge the defender and then fadeaway for a jumper.

All of these guys are one trick ponies that have no feel for the game. They rely heavily on repeated moves in the gym and clearly predetermine what they're going to do.

Barnes has actually shown an ability to hit jumpers in late clock and has shown an ability to overwhelm defenders in the 4th numerous times. He just sits back too much.

We need the guy with a better natural feel who clearly adapts with more reps as he has shown in his rookie season.

If Barnes fails, then you just simply move on from everyone. It's not worth arguing for current state or even FVV or Siakam over anyone...

[ConSarnit]

Are they really that much better as players? They have definitely been featured more to get this team nowhere while putting up stats. What are we losing by pivoting and letting someone with more upside do essentially the same thing while having more opportunities to run this team in a different way?

Also there's literally an article a page back that shows that Barnes is one of the best passers in the entire league that goes much deeper into why he is based on actual analysis instead of generic stats some of you like to use.

Fred and Siakam are much better offensive players. You aren't really losing anything by allowing Scottie time to develop his skillset. It's just work. What's his upside on offense? He has to prove that he can shoot or dribble in order to have the ball. You need at least one of those. That argument just hasn't changed.

The entire team is inefficient and I haven't checked in a month but when I had, the entire team was below league average after the half way point of this season. So, not only are you two apparent best players inefficient, they haven't done anything to make others around them efficient. You're definitely losing time there with development of younger players and even the possibility of trying something new on offense in preparation for next season.

Barnes has handled the ball and can get to where he needs to with the ball and he does shoot. He doesn't need to be Kyrie Irving to handle the ball.

This argument about handling bench and not showing anything is all false. He has been jerked back and forth by Nurse all season as has everyone. There's no denying that this team that has been together for 2 seasons has no chemistry. They look like a team playing in preseason together for the first time most nights. That's deeply concerning. You give a guy a true opportunity when you give him the ball and you adjust the system to fit his skills rather than try to have him play multiple positions (big man, to 3 and D wing, to running the bench one game to not even playing with the bench the next). This isn't giving anyone opportunity to take the reigns.

I will preface this by saying I have high hopes for Barnes. He has a lot of potential and it's probably unfair to expect the world this early. But, he has been pretty bad this year on offense.

iso: 0.82ppp (31st percentile league-wide)
pnr ball handler: 0.7ppp (17th)
post up: 0.87ppp (34th)
spot up: 1.01ppp (50th)
roll man: 1.33ppp (85th, a good area to use him more because of his passing)
transition: 0.97ppp (20th)

drives per game: 6.7 (a low number, likely correlated to his ball handling)

rim fg%: 60% (an ok but not great number)
midrange: ~30%
3pt: 30%
ts%: 52%

Scottie's a good passer (maybe the most natural passer on the team). Other than that I'm not really sure what he's doing that's helping our offense. If we're being honest he's probably hurting it this year. On a team of inefficient scorers he might be our worst, especially because he's doesn't hit 3's with any volume or efficiency and he's not great at getting to the line. His TS% for his position is really really bad.

[Tha Cynic]

Fred and Siakam are much better offensive players. You aren't really losing anything by allowing Scottie time to develop his skillset. It's just work. What's his upside on offense? He has to prove that he can shoot or dribble in order to have the ball. You need at least one of those. That argument just hasn't changed.

The entire team is inefficient and I haven't checked in a month but when I had, the entire team was below league average after the half way point of this season. So, not only are you two apparent best players inefficient, they haven't done anything to make others around them efficient. You're definitely losing time there with development of younger players and even the possibility of trying something new on offense in preparation for next season.

Barnes has handled the ball and can get to where he needs to with the ball and he does shoot. He doesn't need to be Kyrie Irving to handle the ball.

This argument about handling bench and not showing anything is all false. He has been jerked back and forth by Nurse all season as has everyone. There's no denying that this team that has been together for 2 seasons has no chemistry. They look like a team playing in preseason together for the first time most nights. That's deeply concerning. You give a guy a true opportunity when you give him the ball and you adjust the system to fit his skills rather than try to have him play multiple positions (big man, to 3 and D wing, to running the bench one game to not even playing with the bench the next). This isn't giving anyone opportunity to take the reigns.

I will preface this by saying I have high hopes for Barnes. He has a lot of potential and it's probably unfair to expect the world this early. But, he has been pretty bad this year on offense.

iso: 0.82ppp (31st percentile league-wide)
pnr ball handler: 0.7ppp (17th)
post up: 0.87ppp (34th)
spot up: 1.01ppp (50th)
roll man: 1.33ppp (85th, a good area to use him more because of his passing)
transition: 0.97ppp (20th)

drives per game: 6.7 (a low number, likely correlated to his ball handling)

rim fg%: 60% (an ok but not great number)
midrange: ~30%
3pt: 30%
ts%: 52%

Scottie's a good passer (maybe the most natural passer on the team). Other than that I'm not really sure what he's doing that's helping our offense. If we're being honest he's probably hurting it this year. On a team of inefficient scorers he might be our worst, especially because he's doesn't hit 3's with any volume or efficiency and he's not great at getting to the line. His TS% for his position is really really bad.

I think we're arguing two different things. None of my points are about making this team good today to make them a competitor because I don't think that happens with this combination of players, coach and system. I don't think Barnes is suddenly making this a great offense.

My point is that we need to change how we play and we need to move to something new for a better tomorrow. I have trust from what Barnes has shown that he will grow faster as an offensive player and will make the team better quicker if he's given more featured roles to grow in. I think he will help the chemistry on this team which has been terrible. Players have zero trust or even know when they will receive the ball. I'm more concerned about that than advanced stats for a bad team right now. This team needs someone who will help players trust each other.

[HumbleRen]

Sometimes you just gotta throw a kid into the fire and see what he turns into.

Scottie may not be ready but this core isn't good enough to bring him along slowly.

Siakam/OG/FVV not getting first option reps when they were younger have stunted their ISO game development. They look like pussies when it comes to crunch time.

Bringing Scottie along slowly in a role player role isn't the move. Gotta let the kid fail repeatedly to get over the hump.

This is a very good point. For as good as Siakam is as a scorer you can see he was developed like a role player. He has one or two move he uses in the midrange and if those are stopped he basically stands in the corner and disappears.

FVV is simply a jump shooter coming off screens at this stage with no other offensive skill as a scorer. He's basically the same player he was 3 years ago with a bit more maturity at times.

OG we don't even need to talk about. The dude looks awkward doing anything but shooting open 3s.

GTJ has one offensive move which is the chest bump to dislodge the defender and then fadeaway for a jumper.

All of these guys are one trick ponies that have no feel for the game. They rely heavily on repeated moves in the gym and clearly predetermine what they're going to do.

Barnes has actually shown an ability to hit jumpers in late clock and has shown an ability to overwhelm defenders in the 4th numerous times. He just sits back too much.

We need the guy with a better natural feel who clearly adapts with more reps as he has shown in his rookie season.

If Barnes fails, then you just simply Kobe on from everyone. It's not worth arguing for current state or even FVV or Siakam over anyone...

Reps is the name of the game. Bringing along someone slowly when the team isn't contending makes no sense lol. Throw the kid into the fire, he'll either sink or swim.

Wolves could of easily fallen off once KAT got injured but Anthony Edwards stepped up to the plate and became a better player than Siakam this year despite being younger than Scottie. Gotta fail before you succeed.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The entire team is inefficient and I haven't checked in a month but when I had, the entire team was below league average after the half way point of this season. So, not only are you two apparent best players inefficient, they haven't done anything to make others around them efficient. You're definitely losing time there with development of younger players and even the possibility of trying something new on offense in preparation for next season.

They acquired Poeltl and the combinations with Fred, Pascal and Scottie have been overwhelmingly good offense. To say they haven't tried anything new is ignorant. They haven't handed the keys to Scottie, but, again, why would they? He can prepare for next season by getting into the gym and working on 15 foot pull-ups off a screen.

Barnes has handled the ball and can get to where he needs to with the ball and he does shoot. He doesn't need to be Kyrie Irving to handle the ball.

Hard no. Not even arguable.

This argument about handling bench and not showing anything is all false. He has been jerked back and forth by Nurse all season as has everyone.

How so? He hasn't lost minutes, hasn't been benched aside from that one game where he was coming off an injury. He's always on the court. You get 15 points by just being there playing that much.

There's no denying that this team that has been together for 2 seasons has no chemistry. They look like a team playing in preseason together for the first time most nights. That's deeply concerning. You give a guy a true opportunity when you give him the ball and you adjust the system to fit his skills rather than try to have him play multiple positions (big man, to 3 and D wing, to running the bench one game to not even playing with the bench the next). This isn't giving anyone opportunity to take the reigns.

Again, what skills? Where's he supposed to get the ball to go to work?

[ConSarnit]

The entire team is inefficient and I haven't checked in a month but when I had, the entire team was below league average after the half way point of this season. So, not only are you two apparent best players inefficient, they haven't done anything to make others around them efficient. You're definitely losing time there with development of younger players and even the possibility of trying something new on offense in preparation for next season.

Barnes has handled the ball and can get to where he needs to with the ball and he does shoot. He doesn't need to be Kyrie Irving to handle the ball.

This argument about handling bench and not showing anything is all false. He has been jerked back and forth by Nurse all season as has everyone. There's no denying that this team that has been together for 2 seasons has no chemistry. They look like a team playing in preseason together for the first time most nights. That's deeply concerning. You give a guy a true opportunity when you give him the ball and you adjust the system to fit his skills rather than try to have him play multiple positions (big man, to 3 and D wing, to running the bench one game to not even playing with the bench the next). This isn't giving anyone opportunity to take the reigns.

I will preface this by saying I have high hopes for Barnes. He has a lot of potential and it's probably unfair to expect the world this early. But, he has been pretty bad this year on offense.

iso: 0.82ppp (31st percentile league-wide)
pnr ball handler: 0.7ppp (17th)
post up: 0.87ppp (34th)
spot up: 1.01ppp (50th)
roll man: 1.33ppp (85th, a good area to use him more because of his passing)
transition: 0.97ppp (20th)

drives per game: 6.7 (a low number, likely correlated to his ball handling)

rim fg%: 60% (an ok but not great number)
midrange: ~30%
3pt: 30%
ts%: 52%

Scottie's a good passer (maybe the most natural passer on the team). Other than that I'm not really sure what he's doing that's helping our offense. If we're being honest he's probably hurting it this year. On a team of inefficient scorers he might be our worst, especially because he's doesn't hit 3's with any volume or efficiency and he's not great at getting to the line. His TS% for his position is really really bad.

I think we're arguing two different things. None of my points are about making this team good today to make them a competitor because I don't think that happens with this combination of players, coach and system. I don't think Barnes is suddenly making this a great offense.

My point is that we need to change how we play and we need to move to something new for a better tomorrow. I have trust from what Barnes has shown that he will grow faster as an offensive player and will make the team better quicker if he's given more featured roles to grow in. I think he will help the chemistry on this team which has been terrible. Players have zero trust or even know when they will receive the ball. I'm more concerned about that than advanced stats for a bad team right now. This team needs someone who will help players trust each other.

If Barnes doesn't learn to shoot none of this matters for tomorrow. I don't really think the majority of Barnes issues are fixed by featuring him. He has to do 2 things: become a better shooter and become a better ball handler. Those are both slowly developed skills that will probably take a few off-seasons. He already has the IQ, he just doesn't have the skills to put it into practice.

What does trust mean it terms of our offense and why don't you think we have it?

[Los_29]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Not when they don't deserve it.

[ItsDanger]

Scottie's best asset is facilitating offense. He needs finishers to pass to. Team isn't maximizing his potential.