Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Reeko]

This Scottie deserves a bigger role thing reminds me of when the Knicks thought that RJ Barrett deserved a bigger role despite being inefficient in a smaller role. Every fanbase thinks their promising young player is better than they are if they get a clear runaway.

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Not when they don't deserve it.

Player X: 17 FGA per game, shooting splits of 43/29/87. TS% of .519, -0.1 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Should this player have a USG% of 28?

[Los_29]

You're going to find that most stats favour Siakam and Fred over Scottie on offense. More opportunity doesn't seem to make Barnes better. He seems to be incapable of running bench units without cover of better offensive players. Just needs to go and have an honest summer of work. There's more positives than negatives because he's stepped up defensively, but the Raptors want to avoid him having Ricky Rubio's career, or Iguodala's.

To argue that FVV and Pascal are not that much better than Scottie is some crazy level bargnani delusion I haven't seen around here in a while.
Glad to know Cynic is back because I have stopped responding to that dude.

It's pretty unreal to be honest. It's quite clear who our two best players are. Scottie will certainly surpass Fred at some point (if not we are in trouble) but he's not there yet. This organization would love nothing more than to give Scottie more of a role offensively but he's simply not good enough. He needs to show he can flourish in the role he's in now before they start giving him more responsibility.

[HumbleRen]

Watch on YouTube

Scottie discussion starts at 22:00.

[Tha Cynic]

Watch on YouTube

Scottie discussion starts at 22:00.

That Jason Timpf guy sees Scottie exactly how I view him lol. It's actually crazy how similar the exact points he brought up are that I see.

Sam brought up what others are bringing up today, but the jumper I don't think is a worry in today's basketball because players are figuring out how to shoot. He shoots the ball very smooth where he hits nothing but net and under pressure situations (clock winding down) enough for me to think this shot will come around by simply playing the game more.

Time will tell. That jumper needs to go up to 4 or 5 game rather than the few he takes now.

I agree with his take on Bridges as well. I'm not a big fan of the archetype who's main game is a pull up jumper. That's a Rip Hamilton type of player. Didn't listen to the rest lol

[Los_29]

This team sucks, just like the Knicks sucked before this season.

Bad teams can afford to give their young players bigger roles.

Not when they don't deserve it.

Player X: 17 FGA per game, shooting splits of 43/29/87. TS% of .519, -0.1 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Should this player have a USG% of 28?

Depends who it is and what team.

[pingpongrac]

Not when they don't deserve it.

Player X: 17 FGA per game, shooting splits of 43/29/87. TS% of .519, -0.1 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Should this player have a USG% of 28?

Depends who it is and what team.

I'm praying I'm wrong, but I think Reeko just compared Scottie to one of the greatest scorers in NBA history (Durant) and his rookie season in which his best teammates were Earl Watson and Wally Szczerbiak for the 20-62 Sonics.

[Los_29]

Player X: 17 FGA per game, shooting splits of 43/29/87. TS% of .519, -0.1 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Should this player have a USG% of 28?

Depends who it is and what team.

I'm praying I'm wrong, but I think Reeko just compared Scottie to one of the greatest scorers in NBA history (Durant) and his rookie season in which his best teammates were Earl Watson and Wally Szczerbiak for the 20-62 Sonics.

Yeah exactly, KD was a highly polished player who had averaged 26/11 in college. Scottie is a player who can't shoot and averaged 10ppg in college. There is a massive difference. lol. You can easily justify giving KD that kind of responsibility given how talented he was and the fact there was no one better on his team.

KD's efficiency was essentially the same as Scottie's despite KD being a 1st option and Scottie being the 4th/5th option.

[Reeko]

Player X: 17 FGA per game, shooting splits of 43/29/87. TS% of .519, -0.1 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Should this player have a USG% of 28?

Depends who it is and what team.

I'm praying I'm wrong, but I think Reeko just compared Scottie to one of the greatest scorers in NBA history (Durant) and his rookie season in which his best teammates were Earl Watson and Wally Szczerbiak for the 20-62 Sonics.

Wally Szczerbiak was an All Star. And the season he played with Durant he had a TS% of .573. That Durant went on to become one of the greatest scorers in NBA history is beside the point isn't it? The statement made was that only young players who through their play and efficiency deserve a larger role. Durant was a highly inefficient offensive player that year, and a worse defender. By your own standards he did not deserve to have a USG% that high.

[HangTime]

Is that how we're determining a player's efficiency now? TS%?

And this is part of the problem with some people on here, they assume that people who want to see Scottie in a more featured role want that for him so that he can take more shots. Granted that's part of it, but the biggest reason for wanting an increased role for him is so that he can play make for the other guys. The kid is the best passer on the team by quite a bit, and yeah he makes mistakes and takes risks, but the hope is that he smooths that stuff out as he gains experience through repetition.

Scottie has quite literally been the least efficient rotation player on the team for almost the entire season according to TS%. And yes, TS% has always been used as a barometer for how efficient a player is since its inception. I personally think it's important to also look at TOV% relating to USG% which helps Scottie's case a bit, but it's not enough to claim he has been anywhere close to efficient. The reality is his 52.5 TS% is even worse than Koloko (52.9 TS%) and Achiuwa (54.1 TS%) as we near the end of the season while he has the 2nd highest TOV% among rotation players (OG is #1) and averages 2-3 more TOV per 100 possessions than Siakam and FVV despite having the ball in his hands ~25% less.

Scottie is definitely the most talented passer on the team and he has the highest ceiling as a playmaker, but that doesn't mean he is the BEST passer on the team right now. He makes multiple careless/stupid passes almost every game and that isn't necessarily something that he is going to fix by having the ball put in his hands even more frequently than it has been over the past few weeks (20.2 USG% pre-ASB vs 22.1 USG% post-ASB). What's more likely is his passing will improve over time as his scoring improves and he/the team has more space to operate with. If he can get to the level of shooting of Siakam over the past few years (38% on 3+ midrange attempts and 33% on 4+ 3FGA), his game will open up so much more. It's a big ask, but Scottie becoming a more willing and effective shooter outside of the paint is the quickest way to fast-track his development. That's the only way he is going to realistically get the ball more than he already does as he is bad as a PnR ball handler and in ISO situations while he doesn't drive very frequently at all right now. An improved jumper instantly makes him more of an all-around threat.

People really don’t want to say the truth of how disappointing Scottie has been this season.

Who was the last ROY who had this subpar of a second season? He’s not in great company guys and he sure as hell doesn’t deserve a bigger role.

How many of those ROY's had guy(s) ahead of him the pecking order?

Also, the lack of shooting, from shooters doesn't help.

[pingpongrac]

Depends who it is and what team.

I'm praying I'm wrong, but I think Reeko just compared Scottie to one of the greatest scorers in NBA history (Durant) and his rookie season in which his best teammates were Earl Watson and Wally Szczerbiak for the 20-62 Sonics.

Wally Szczerbiak was an All Star. And the season he played with Durant he had a TS% of .573. That Durant went on to become one of the greatest scorers in NBA history is beside the point isn't it? The statement made was that only young players who through their play and efficiency deserve a larger role. Durant was a highly inefficient offensive player that year, and a worse defender. By your own standards he did not deserve to have a USG% that high.

Durant was a polished offensive star who averaged 26 PPG on 59 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like T-Mac and Dirk who were #1 options putting up 25-30 PPG for years. Scottie was a raw offensive player who averaged 10 PPG on 55 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like Draymond and Odom who were essentially ultra role players that could do a bit of everything for the majority of their careers.

Szczerbiak was an All-Star 6 years beforehand and he was a guy who averaged 16 PPG for his career prior to the 07/08 season. At age 30, he was in the downswing of his career. It's not like he was a star in the prime of his career putting up 23/8/5 like Siakam has in the past 4 seasons or even the 19/4/7 that FVV has put up over the past 4 seasons.

It's also pretty important to note that league average TS% in Durant's rookie season was 54% so he wasn't even THAT inefficient considering the insanely high usage. The comparison is just wild. It's the complete opposite of extreme as the "Scottie is like MCW" takes we saw on here a few months ago when Scottie was looking rough.

[Los_29]

Depends who it is and what team.

I'm praying I'm wrong, but I think Reeko just compared Scottie to one of the greatest scorers in NBA history (Durant) and his rookie season in which his best teammates were Earl Watson and Wally Szczerbiak for the 20-62 Sonics.

Wally Szczerbiak was an All Star. And the season he played with Durant he had a TS% of .573. That Durant went on to become one of the greatest scorers in NBA history is beside the point isn't it? The statement made was that only young players who through their play and efficiency deserve a larger role. Durant was a highly inefficient offensive player that year, and a worse defender. By your own standards he did not deserve to have a USG% that high.

Wally was an all-star in 2002. The previous season in Boston he averaged 15ppg and his game was rapidly declining due to injuries. KD was on a team that won 20 games. He deserved to have that kind of usage because he was their best player. There was simply no one better on his team. Not only that but his TS% was only marginally lower than the league average so we can't even say he was highly inefficient given the era he was playing in at the time. This year, the league average is 58.1%. Scottie's TS% is significantly below that.

[Reeko]

I'm praying I'm wrong, but I think Reeko just compared Scottie to one of the greatest scorers in NBA history (Durant) and his rookie season in which his best teammates were Earl Watson and Wally Szczerbiak for the 20-62 Sonics.

Wally Szczerbiak was an All Star. And the season he played with Durant he had a TS% of .573. That Durant went on to become one of the greatest scorers in NBA history is beside the point isn't it? The statement made was that only young players who through their play and efficiency deserve a larger role. Durant was a highly inefficient offensive player that year, and a worse defender. By your own standards he did not deserve to have a USG% that high.

Durant was a polished offensive star who averaged 26 PPG on 59 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like T-Mac and Dirk who were #1 options putting up 25-30 PPG for years. Scottie was a raw offensive player who averaged 10 PPG on 55 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like Draymond and Odom who were essentially ultra role players that could do a bit of everything for the majority of their careers.

Szczerbiak was an All-Star 6 years beforehand and he was a guy who averaged 16 PPG for his career prior to the 07/08 season. At age 30, he was in the downswing of his career. It's not like he was a star in the prime of his career putting up 23/8/5 like Siakam has in the past 4 seasons or even the 19/4/7 that FVV has put up over the past 4 seasons.

It's also pretty important to note that league average TS% in Durant's rookie season was 54% so he wasn't even THAT inefficient considering the insanely high usage. The comparison is just wild. It's the complete opposite of extreme as the "Scottie is like MCW" takes we saw on here a few months ago when Scottie was looking rough.

Except there's no comparison being made, I'm not calling him Durant. My only point is that your reasoning for not wanting Scottie to have an expanded role because you believe him to be inefficient is bunk. Giving talented young players expanded roles is usually the right way to go, despite their shooting inefficiency early on. Or do you guys not think that he's talented?

[Los_29]

Wally Szczerbiak was an All Star. And the season he played with Durant he had a TS% of .573. That Durant went on to become one of the greatest scorers in NBA history is beside the point isn't it? The statement made was that only young players who through their play and efficiency deserve a larger role. Durant was a highly inefficient offensive player that year, and a worse defender. By your own standards he did not deserve to have a USG% that high.

Durant was a polished offensive star who averaged 26 PPG on 59 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like T-Mac and Dirk who were #1 options putting up 25-30 PPG for years. Scottie was a raw offensive player who averaged 10 PPG on 55 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like Draymond and Odom who were essentially ultra role players that could do a bit of everything for the majority of their careers.

Szczerbiak was an All-Star 6 years beforehand and he was a guy who averaged 16 PPG for his career prior to the 07/08 season. At age 30, he was in the downswing of his career. It's not like he was a star in the prime of his career putting up 23/8/5 like Siakam has in the past 4 seasons or even the 19/4/7 that FVV has put up over the past 4 seasons.

It's also pretty important to note that league average TS% in Durant's rookie season was 54% so he wasn't even THAT inefficient considering the insanely high usage. The comparison is just wild. It's the complete opposite of extreme as the "Scottie is like MCW" takes we saw on here a few months ago when Scottie was looking rough.

Except there's no comparison being made, I'm not calling him Durant. My only point is that your reasoning for not wanting Scottie to have an expanded role because you believe him to be inefficient is bunk. Giving talented young players expanded roles is usually the right way to go, despite their shooting inefficiency early on. Or do you guys not think that he's talented?

But the player has to have the talent for it. Scottie doesn't have that kind of talent. He's not that kind of player.

[Reeko]

Durant was a polished offensive star who averaged 26 PPG on 59 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like T-Mac and Dirk who were #1 options putting up 25-30 PPG for years. Scottie was a raw offensive player who averaged 10 PPG on 55 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like Draymond and Odom who were essentially ultra role players that could do a bit of everything for the majority of their careers.

Szczerbiak was an All-Star 6 years beforehand and he was a guy who averaged 16 PPG for his career prior to the 07/08 season. At age 30, he was in the downswing of his career. It's not like he was a star in the prime of his career putting up 23/8/5 like Siakam has in the past 4 seasons or even the 19/4/7 that FVV has put up over the past 4 seasons.

It's also pretty important to note that league average TS% in Durant's rookie season was 54% so he wasn't even THAT inefficient considering the insanely high usage. The comparison is just wild. It's the complete opposite of extreme as the "Scottie is like MCW" takes we saw on here a few months ago when Scottie was looking rough.

Except there's no comparison being made, I'm not calling him Durant. My only point is that your reasoning for not wanting Scottie to have an expanded role because you believe him to be inefficient is bunk. Giving talented young players expanded roles is usually the right way to go, despite their shooting inefficiency early on. Or do you guys not think that he's talented?

But the player has to have the talent for it. Scottie doesn't have that kind of talent. He's not that kind of player.

Ok, so that's where we diverge it seems. If we throw out all the numbers, advanced stats and analytics, just going by the eye test you don't view him as having the kind of talent that merits him having an increased role. Fair enough.

[pingpongrac]

Wally Szczerbiak was an All Star. And the season he played with Durant he had a TS% of .573. That Durant went on to become one of the greatest scorers in NBA history is beside the point isn't it? The statement made was that only young players who through their play and efficiency deserve a larger role. Durant was a highly inefficient offensive player that year, and a worse defender. By your own standards he did not deserve to have a USG% that high.

Durant was a polished offensive star who averaged 26 PPG on 59 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like T-Mac and Dirk who were #1 options putting up 25-30 PPG for years. Scottie was a raw offensive player who averaged 10 PPG on 55 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like Draymond and Odom who were essentially ultra role players that could do a bit of everything for the majority of their careers.

Szczerbiak was an All-Star 6 years beforehand and he was a guy who averaged 16 PPG for his career prior to the 07/08 season. At age 30, he was in the downswing of his career. It's not like he was a star in the prime of his career putting up 23/8/5 like Siakam has in the past 4 seasons or even the 19/4/7 that FVV has put up over the past 4 seasons.

It's also pretty important to note that league average TS% in Durant's rookie season was 54% so he wasn't even THAT inefficient considering the insanely high usage. The comparison is just wild. It's the complete opposite of extreme as the "Scottie is like MCW" takes we saw on here a few months ago when Scottie was looking rough.

Except there's no comparison being made, I'm not calling him Durant. My only point is that your reasoning for not wanting Scottie to have an expanded role because you believe him to be inefficient is bunk. Giving talented young players expanded roles is usually the right way to go, despite their shooting inefficiency early on. Or do you guys not think that he's talented?

What exactly is the point of bringing up the rookie season numbers of a player who came into the league destined to be an elite scorer 15 years ago then using that as evidence that we should do the same with Scottie? The game has drastically changed since 2007. Durant putting up 20 PPG on 52 TS% with a 28 USG% was perfectly acceptable back then. In the same year, T-Mac (who placed 8th in MVP voting) was putting up 22 PPG on 49 TS% with a 30 USG% as the 1A option for a 55-27 team while David West was putting up 21 PPG on 54 TS% with a 26 USG% as the 1B option for a 56-26 team. Even the Spurs were mostly led by two players that would be deemed inefficient in today's game (Parker put up 19 PPG on 54 TS% and Duncan put up 19 PPG on 55 TS% with an identical 28 USG%).

Scottie being in the 52-53 TS% range for the majority of the season while being someone who has not been able to effectively score outside of the paint (0.80 PPP on jump shots) in isolation (0.82 PPP) or as the PnR ball handler (0.70 PPP) makes it extremely hard to just increase his usage as those are terrible numbers in today's game, especially for someone that is currently in the role of a 3rd/4th option in general. If it was a player on a different team putting up those numbers, we'd all be claiming he's a bust. We all watch the games and see flashes of stardom though. It all comes down to improving his shot and ball-handling, which are things that see the most improvement with offseason work and repetition.

[DreamTeam09]

Yet some want to trade him? LOL. Just wait until the deadweight is removed from the roster. They're in the way and limiting his style.

At what point does he become good enough to where ther "deadweight" doesn't matter because they understand that he's the best? Like if we inserted Jaylen Brown on this team magically, do you not believe he would be the top of the pecking order? If Ja was on this team, do you think FVV would have the ball more than JA??

At what point does the crème rise to the top?

LBJ came in, and ricky davis and larry hughes basically said he should be assimilating to them n the team, and LBJ proceeded to put up 27 n 9 game one and never looked back.

It's more on Scotty finding his way in the league rather than him being fazed out or something

I think that Pascal and Fred are so established that even a guy like Jaylen Brown would have to work his way into the offensive system. Neither one of those guys is just going to hand the ball over to Brown and say "Lead us".

As for Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes, what did they ever win? Pascal and Fred have won a championship as key cogs of the team, Pascal is All NBA and Fred is an All Star. Now, Scottie is not LeBron but establishing yourself as the best player is a lot easier around the likes of Larry Hughes and Ricky Davis. Also LeBron came in as the most hyped high school prospect since Kareem and got drafted to one of the worst teams in the league, you better believe that the coaching staff were going to prioritize him getting as many opportunities as possible. Rookie LeBron already had a USG% of 28.2.

There are times when Scottie is too passive, but let's not take this to mean that he's been given the keys to the team but just refused to drive it.

I couldn't disagree more on that point

[Reeko]

Durant was a polished offensive star who averaged 26 PPG on 59 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like T-Mac and Dirk who were #1 options putting up 25-30 PPG for years. Scottie was a raw offensive player who averaged 10 PPG on 55 TS% in college then came into the NBA drawing comparisons to guys like Draymond and Odom who were essentially ultra role players that could do a bit of everything for the majority of their careers.

Szczerbiak was an All-Star 6 years beforehand and he was a guy who averaged 16 PPG for his career prior to the 07/08 season. At age 30, he was in the downswing of his career. It's not like he was a star in the prime of his career putting up 23/8/5 like Siakam has in the past 4 seasons or even the 19/4/7 that FVV has put up over the past 4 seasons.

It's also pretty important to note that league average TS% in Durant's rookie season was 54% so he wasn't even THAT inefficient considering the insanely high usage. The comparison is just wild. It's the complete opposite of extreme as the "Scottie is like MCW" takes we saw on here a few months ago when Scottie was looking rough.

Except there's no comparison being made, I'm not calling him Durant. My only point is that your reasoning for not wanting Scottie to have an expanded role because you believe him to be inefficient is bunk. Giving talented young players expanded roles is usually the right way to go, despite their shooting inefficiency early on. Or do you guys not think that he's talented?

What exactly is the point of bringing up the rookie season numbers of a player who came into the league destined to be an elite scorer 15 years ago then using that as evidence that we should do the same with Scottie? The game has drastically changed since 2007. Durant putting up 20 PPG on 52 TS% with a 28 USG% was perfectly acceptable back then. In the same year, T-Mac (who placed 8th in MVP voting) was putting up 22 PPG on 49 TS% with a 30 USG% as the 1A option for a 55-27 team while David West was putting up 21 PPG on 54 TS% with a 26 USG% as the 1B option for a 56-26 team. Even the Spurs were mostly led by two players that would be deemed inefficient in today's game (Parker put up 19 PPG on 54 TS% and Duncan put up 19 PPG on 55 TS% with an identical 28 USG%).

Scottie being in the 52-53 TS% range for the majority of the season while being someone who has not been able to effectively score outside of the paint (0.80 PPP on jump shots) in isolation (0.82 PPP) or as the PnR ball handler (0.70 PPP) makes it extremely hard to just increase his usage as those are terrible numbers in today's game, especially for someone that is currently in the role of a 3rd/4th option in general. If it was a player on a different team putting up those numbers, we'd all be claiming he's a bust. We all watch the games and see flashes of stardom though. It all comes down to improving his shot and ball-handling, which are things that see the most improvement with offseason work and repetition.

McGrady getting 8th in MVP voting was purely narrative driven. Yao Ming was the best player on that team and the only one of the two to make the All Star game that season. McGrady likely got those votes because he was able to help keep them afloat when Yao went down. If you look at McGrady's advanced stats they pale in comparison to all of the other contenders for the award. Out of the 17 players that season who received even a single vote, McGrady had the worst WS and WS/48 numbers and I'm not talking about a small margin either.

Kevin Durant: #146 in TS%, #100 in AST%, #135 in TRB%, #118 in TOV%, #93 in VORP, #106 in BPM. Pretty much bottom half of the league in all of those categories.

[Tripod]

It's as if some forget Barnes was always going to be a longer term prospect to hopefully reach his potential. Especially when it comes to his outside shooting.

But I will say it again, as a rookie, Barnes was looking FANTASTIC when getting the ball at tbe top of the left key. He would back down defenders or simply just shoot over them. Then they totally went away from him playing in that area this year and had him parked on the perimeter more.

But that's also where development comes in....do you just have in spots to succeed or do you also have to have him in those non efficient spots to help develop him? Christ, they still let OG gets ISO chances in an attempt to make him better. Should not be surprised a 2nd year player is doing the same thing.

And in reality, it's what a young building team SHOULD be doing. Our big issue is that we are not committed to rebuilding or "now". We are teetering between the 2.

in the end, EVERYONE has been inefficient. Our 2 shooting guards can't hit 3's consistently. Our 3nD F is shooting below par, our C position was non existent until YAK. Our bench has been trash. Our Allstar has looked awful for weeks and can't shoot from outside. So why are we surprised that our 2nd year Barnes is inconsistent too?

Reality is that this group as a whole, is inefficient and inconsistent. That that's on Mgt. But Christmas they are inefficient and inconsistent too. Talk about a culture.

[HiJiNX]

Again, if you can’t see Scottie’s potential at this point, I don’t know what to say. He is far and away the most naturally talented player on this team. Of course Fred and Siakam are better than him right now. Anybody who thinks different is out to lunch. But, Scottie has an unreal template to work with given his physical profile, processing speed, competitiveness and winning mentality. If our only sticking point for this guy is he can’t make a midrange jumper consistently yet, if THAT is the thing that stands between being a high level role player and a perennial all-star, then it truly surprises me that some of y’all ain’t higher on him than you are. It is surprisingly easy to develop a midrange jumper, especially for a guy who creates space so well in that range already.

Of course there’s a reality in which the jumper never comes around but there’s a lot of evidence pointing to it happening.

Barnes has had probably about 20 instances in his career so far where he’s been the best player on the floor for at least an entire quarter, regardless of competition. Oh and he also tends to do this when it’s needed the most.

The talent and ceiling is clear.

[mademan]

For Scottie to shine, Pascal gotta go. And i dont see Masai giving up Pascal for another couple seasons cause dude is in love with him.

It is what it is.