Magic Giannison wrote:Are we gonna argue on schematics now?Unless you dont follow any basketball discussion about the NBA outside the PC board youd know that Boston was the overwhelming favorites until lately. Im nopt sure where exactly you're confused here.
I'm confused because this has no relevance to our discussion. Who cares what some people say? I can find you a lot of different opinions that are popular, but not necessarily right.
According to what its not true,nobody was even remotely close to Giannis in that series in terms of performance,Giannis was dominating on Both ends while injured.You say Phoenix defense wasn't good on stopping Giannis but it was good enough to stop Jokic who is considered better offensive payer an sweep them ?
According to the fact that being the best player on the floor doesn't equal a carryjob.
You say the Bucks didnt need him to score 35 when the Bucks won the whole series by a differential of 14 points through whole 6 games.
The average is deflated by the first game which was a blowout. Once the Bucks adjusted their gameplan, they won the series comfortably.
Let's not focus on this performance though, it's not the point of this discussion. Giannis was amazing in the finals, it just doesn't mean he had no help.
The same could be said for the young Jason Kidd Bucks when they had GIannis, Midletton and Jabari.
Of course, but what's your point? Yeah, Kidd Bucks were much less talented than 2023 team. That's literally my point.
Now allow me to remind you what exactly happen because once again you're wrong. Giannis didn't take massive leap in 2015-16 season he did next year . bucks biggest change that occurred which stands even today was Jason Kid after all star putting Giannis at the point instead of MCW which was starting to change how the Bucks play to much better and Giannis started to get his first triple double Feb 23, 2016 against Kobes Lakers.
I know that Giannis made even a bigger leap next year, but he improved a lot from 2015 to 2016. I remember it very well. In fact, 2015 Giannis wasn't anything beyond average starter level, while 2016 is a notable improvement from him.
Now please tell me how you held back then this Giannis on same standards with AD who was considered a top 5 player with Jrue by his side and then talk to me about East being weak.
Irrelevant to this discussion.
He did absolutely nothing by just arguing with random numbers as he obviously haven't watched a game of those Bucks to say the least.
Accusing people of not watching games on basketball board is a very bold statement...
Giannis NEVER missed the playoffs since becoming an All star and he did so while having Middleton injured and payed only 29 games. That was also the year ( 2016-17) he became first time voted as all defense.
Yes, and...? Another irrelevant point to this discussion. I never denied that Giannis has a huge impact on his team, I just said he has a very talented team around him right now.
Why do you feel forced to defend Giannis against blows that doesn't exist?
You cant be series now. allow me to quote you.
"I think his value is pretty close to that level right now though, which is the point. "
This is simply a false statement now matter from what point you view it.Monetary value, team value, demand? There is absolute nothing to suggest that Lopez who even a terrible Lakers team dropped had the same value as the DPOY leading candidate. its absurd.
You don't understand me then. I said that Lopez didn't have such value back then, but he has it now. Players can improve their value throughout seasons, you know? How is that a false, absurd statement?
Again, falsified by whom exactly, because i can prove you many videos and games that Lopez defense is getting played out of the court and Giannis plays at 5 small ball as a resort. Are you seriously gonna argue about this when i posted to you videos and explanations about Bucks defense system ?
There are teams that could play Lopez off the court, although it's harder and harder this season as he improved his mobility noticeably after the surgery. It doesn't mean he's dependent on Giannis. Bad matchups don't make you dependent.
I can show you many videos and games when Lopez shut down the paint without Giannis, all from this season. Who would have the final word then? That's why we have stats, which suggest that Lopez defense remains valuable without Giannis.
Brook defense is never independent, he is too slow and his flaws are obvious to see how he depends on Jrue and Giannis to literally guide players to the rim for him to close in and shut them down.
This is actually false, Lopez certianly doesn't rely on Giannis to guide players to the rim. Giannis role is a roaming help defender, not someone who guides players inside.
It seems that you have a strange way of evaluating defense. I can say that Holiday depends on Lopez to shut down the paint to do his things and it wouldn't be less true than your statement. Defense is a team effort and each player has a different role in this machine. Lopez is extremely important part of that system and you can't say he's not valuable by himself only because he can't guard perimeter. By this logic, Jrue is useless because he can't protect the paint.
Lopez did improve a lot on that and thats why he is the talks and leads the DPOY. This is a well known system of the Bucks for years now evern since Brook joined us.
I know that, it seems you think only Bucks fans understand the basic Bucks defensive system that relies on Lopez rim protection and Giannis help defense...
Keep in mind that Lopez is a considerably better this season than in previous ones at various aspects of defense. He's smarter than ever with his positioning, he can play drop coverages higher now due to improved mobility. He looks lighter on his feet as well. As a Bucks fan, I am sure you see this improvement.
A lot of time? what?
Giannis is on pace to play same games as last year and more than the year we won the championship and despite him getting injured.
Giannis missed 5 games in January which the Bucks lost 3 of them ( 2 vs Miami and 1 vs Cleveland) while winning vs Indiana and Toronto.
Both games vs Miami Brook was getting exploited and was negative on the court. I watched those games, Bucks board was calling him out as well. He played better vs Cavs but that didn't matter because Mobley was feasting and scored 38 points almost al in the paint.....
Stop embarrassing yourself by telling me a Bucks fan to watch the games i watch just to support a false claim...
Are you aware that Giannis missed 15, not 5 games this season?
Giannis gravity affects every aspect of the court,i was clear as day that this affects vast majority of players that played for the Bucks.
True.
Jrue is easily equated on how much better he looks on the Bucks compared to NOLA despite being worse raw production player. Guess why, because he is asked to play a specific role we took him for and not for his scoring unlike NOLA.
Jrue gets more love from media because he plays on a better team. Giannis didn't make him that player, he was always there.
A significant better player than made all 7 years in the playoffs with Dame Lillard as his main guy instead of AD. You really wanna die on that hill ?
Yes I do and I don't think I will be alone.
Again rad above, unless you only visit and read NBA news and talk about it on PC then my bad but this feels extremely disingenuous and pretentious.
Why should we use opinions from outside of this discussion as an argument in our discussions? I can show you a lot of talks about Giannis being much better than Tim Duncan outside the board, would you agree then that he'd overrated? It's just pointless...
Individually? maybe 1durring his healthiest season like i explained. Again you seem to not know how inconsistent Middleton is through his career, there have been years and discussion about trading him for ages now. There is even a meme that Bucks fans use for years as well.. Im not sure why you're so surprised about it.
Enjoy it, thats his literally his career in a nutshell.
With all respect, I don't value memes as relevant arguments in serious discussion...
Inconsistency makes Middleton an all-star level player. If he was consistent, he would be a clear all-nba level player for quite a few years.
The pattern is evident,Bucks system and Giannis gravity makes them better players, there i've said it, its not some grand conspiracy or anything, its basketball.
The same system makes Giannis a better player as well, I hope you realize that. It's basketball after all.
The narrative is that people promote Bucks team much better than there are to diminish his impact.
Nobody did that here.
Trying to deny that Giannis had a historical finals and one of the best ever is simply a false statement that its not supported by anything or anyone who watched the finals.
Nobody did that here.
Nobody said anything about Bucks winning without Giannis, there is a huge middle point which you ignore and grasp for the straws to the other end.
Funnily you didnt even know that Bucks were in such play that not only fans and Bucks media were talking about trading Middleton but also firing Bud because at the time he was considered as a regular season coach ever since his Atlanta days.
I remember Bud situation quite well and I know how toxic teams fanbases can be. It's another argument with no weight behind it. People being wrong about Bud doesn't make them right.
It isnt irrelevant, unless you misunderstood something i straight out saying that your point about the supporting cast isnt correct by saying how Klay an Green wouldn't be remotely impactful on any other team. I even gave you before KD to solidify that point even further and i explained why. Because they are playing around Curry system.
Well, if you want to argue that Klay and Green wouldn't be all-star level players without Curry then it seems you overestimate all superstars impact on their teammates...
I mean i dont understand , are you gonna pretend that Giannis becoming a superstar and leading the team to 60 wins didn't allow Middleton to become an a star? you gonna pretend that coaches and fans dont vote all stars on team achievement alone as a reward?
I see, if that's your point then fair enough - but when I say "all-star level" I don't mean literally an all-star selection. People definitely have winning bias and you can't change that.
What I meant is that Khris improved as a player to the point where he'd be all-star level on any team, even without selection.
Jrue got voted by coaches ( not fans or media ) over Harden while fans and media voted the oposite. What does that mean, that Jrue is better player than Harden and that im **** on Jrue if i say otherwise?
No, it means that people underrate Harden massively this season, probably due to his past and his questionable popularity.
Not sure about Lopez and why you keep insisting on it and thinking that he is individual defender when its WIDELY known in the league that he never was good a defender and the thrived in the Bucks system. Read what i write please.
I said Lopez became a great rim protector and defender in the Bucks system that is resolved around Giannis on both sides. I even gave you multiple videos explaining by non Bucks fans and analytics even why thats a thing. its literally Bucks defense scouting report at this point?
Im literally praising Jrue and Lopez anywhere i go but im not gonna pretend that they are something that they are not and that Giannis doesn't hugely affect their performance because thats obvious if you watch it.
Il link them again even the one from two days ago that goes hyping Brook.
Thinking basketball talking about the scheme and how Giannis makes them historic.
Im sorry that you're not familiar with how Bucks defensive system works.
All players are dependent on each other on defense, that's how modern defensive schemes work. If that's your point, then thanks for saying obvious things.
No, Giannis didn't turn Lopez into a great shotblocker. Lopez did it by himself, with Bud's help. Of course without Giannis thr system doesn't work nearly as well, but the same is true the other way around - Bucks without Lopez were significantly worse last year defensively and then they came back to top tier level in the playoffs.
Giannis is better defender than Lopez and he's more versatile and valuable then Brook. It doesn't mean that Lopez is useless without Antetokounmpo. That's just wrong and stop pretending that you know more than the others by being a Bucks fan and posting Ben Taylor's video from 3 years ago. Ben himself called Lopez a "sub-all-star" level bigman this season and he has been praising Brook for his defensive improvement a lot.
It seems that for someone being so proud of watching games and being a Bucks fan, you don't see the nuances that differentiate Lopez from 2019 and from 2023...
