TOP career's TS add

[SpreeS]

Nice list. Its tells a lot of about the best NBA scorers of all time. But I am shocked by two name's...How good was Miller and how far is Bird from his own legend as efficiency scorer (50/40/90 club, one of the best shooter of all time, career volume .890 FT shooter)

1. KAJ 4719
2. Wilt 3587
3. Oscar 3519
4. Miller 3450
5. Dantley 3110
6. Durant 3101
7. Barkley 2973
8. Malone 2914
9. Lebron 2839
10. O'Neal 2759
11. West 2687
12. Curry 2613
13. Stockton 2466
14. Harden 2395
15. Bellamy 2362
16. Dirk 2351
17. Allen 2130
18. Nash 2127
19. Magic 2099


Bird 1055

[Dutchball97]

Reggie Miller's consistency really shines through here. Every season of his long career added positive value to his case and the only seasons where he didn't have at least +100 TS add were his first and final years. What hampers his case a bit is a lack of volume scoring as the only guys here that scored less for their career are a couple of pass first point guards like Stockton and Nash. With more seasons like 1990 where Miller averaged 24.6 PPG on 51/41/87% shooting he could've been in the conversation with the best scorers of all-time but as it stands it's hard to make that case for someone who only broke 20 PPG a handful of times in his career.

With Bird it's just that people keep forgetting how much change Bird went through as a player in his relatively short career. Bird shot under 30% from 3 in the 1981-1984 period before shooting over 40% for the next 4 years. Similarly his shooting from 2 and the free throw line were always good but they kept getting progressively better. 1985 and 1986 are already a pretty big upgrade over his earlier years in terms of both volume and efficiency but it's 1987 and 1988 where he has his 50/40/90 seasons with nearly 30 PPG where he cements himself as one of the elite shooters in the league. It isn't that Bird doesn't live up to his reputation, it's that this reputation should only apply to 2-4 seasons and not his entire career.

[70sFan]

Another reason to rave about Dantley? I'm in!

Reggie efficiency is a known thing for years now. He's absurdly underappreciated player by his contemporaries.

Bird's greatness was never about scoring, that's something most people don't realize.

[rk2023]

Bird is probably low relatively because it took a while for him to become an "uber-efficient" (subjective definition, just providing my own view) volume scorer. In years he made the "50-40-90" club was when his efficiency started become around +7% relative to league average / 113-14 TS+.

Before that, he topped out at +4 and generally had marginal efficiency his first five years in the Regular Season. Even with the exclusive company (at higher level) as a scorer, his FTR and 3PAR in absolute terms (likely his rim attempt-rate too) weren't high per-se, and it seems a lot of his shots came from mid-range jumpers. This carries over into TS / TS Add.

[Owly]

Nice list. Its tells a lot of about the best NBA scorers of all time. But I am shocked by two name's...How good was Miller and how far is Bird from his own legend as efficiency scorer (50/40/90 club, one of the best shooter of all time, career volume .890 FT shooter)

1. KAJ 4719
2. Wilt 3587
3. Oscar 3519
4. Miller 3450
5. Dantley 3110
6. Durant 3101
7. Barkley 2973
8. Malone 2914
9. Lebron 2839
10. O'Neal 2759
11. West 2687
12. Curry 2613
13. Stockton 2466
14. Harden 2395
15. Bellamy 2362
16. Dirk 2351
17. Allen 2130
18. Nash 2127
19. Magic 2099


Bird 1055

Others have covered well that Bird's window as a really efficient scorer was brief. Bird's teammate Maxwell is roughly equidistant between the bottom end of that last and Bird.

The list here though is incomplete. Whether NBA only or combined it is missing Artis Gilmore. Combined he is second and shunts Wilt and below down 1 slot, NBA only 11th, shunting West and below down one.

[cpower]

where is the GOAT?

[SpreeS]

where is the GOAT?

Between 20-22th

[SpreeS]

Nice list. Its tells a lot of about the best NBA scorers of all time. But I am shocked by two name's...How good was Miller and how far is Bird from his own legend as efficiency scorer (50/40/90 club, one of the best shooter of all time, career volume .890 FT shooter)

1. KAJ 4719
2. Wilt 3587
3. Oscar 3519
4. Miller 3450
5. Dantley 3110
6. Durant 3101
7. Barkley 2973
8. Malone 2914
9. Lebron 2839
10. O'Neal 2759
11. West 2687
12. Curry 2613
13. Stockton 2466
14. Harden 2395
15. Bellamy 2362
16. Dirk 2351
17. Allen 2130
18. Nash 2127
19. Magic 2099


Bird 1055

Missed Gilmore 3880 ABA/NBA

[70sFan]

Nice list. Its tells a lot of about the best NBA scorers of all time. But I am shocked by two name's...How good was Miller and how far is Bird from his own legend as efficiency scorer (50/40/90 club, one of the best shooter of all time, career volume .890 FT shooter)

1. KAJ 4719
2. Wilt 3587
3. Oscar 3519
4. Miller 3450
5. Dantley 3110
6. Durant 3101
7. Barkley 2973
8. Malone 2914
9. Lebron 2839
10. O'Neal 2759
11. West 2687
12. Curry 2613
13. Stockton 2466
14. Harden 2395
15. Bellamy 2362
16. Dirk 2351
17. Allen 2130
18. Nash 2127
19. Magic 2099


Bird 1055

Missed Gilmore 3880 ABA/NBA

I have been wondering where Gilmore is, it seems he's near the top. Another of my favorites making his presence felt

[tsherkin]

Missed Gilmore 3880 ABA/NBA

He did say "NBA scorers," not "ABA/NBA."

[Owly]

Missed Gilmore 3880 ABA/NBA

He did say "NBA scorers," not "ABA/NBA."

The "he" in OP and making the addendum are the same poster.

And per my earlier note on this, Gilmore is wrongly omitted whether it's NBA only or not. He should be there either way.

...

The list here though is incomplete. Whether NBA only or combined it is missing Artis Gilmore. Combined he is second and shunts Wilt and below down 1 slot, NBA only 11th, shunting West and below down one.

[tsherkin]

The "he" in OP and making the addendum are the same poster.

HAH! Well, now you know how perceptive I'm feeling today... Oops.

And per my earlier note on this, Gilmore is wrongly omitted whether it's NBA only or not. He should be there either way.

Gilmore's at what for the NBA, 2729.9, right? That would put him 10th, yes?

[Owly]

The "he" in OP and making the addendum are the same poster.

HAH! Well, now you know how perceptive I'm feeling today... Oops.

And per my earlier note on this, Gilmore is wrongly omitted whether it's NBA only or not. He should be there either way.

Gilmore's at what for the NBA, 2729.9, right? That would put him 10th, yes?

Assuming the above list is otherwise correct (not going to closely check/update the list I have right now, but I didn't spot anything else when I first noted Gilmore) that is the correct number and so would have him 11th behind Shaq in 10th.

[tsherkin]

Assuming the above list is otherwise correct (not going to closely check/update the list I have right now, but I didn't spot anything else when I first noted Gilmore) that is the correct number and so would have him 11th behind Shaq in 10th.

That's impressive. About right, too. He was very efficient, particularly in-era. Not particularly high-volume or an incredible passer, but damn was he hard to stop when he got it anywhere in close. Perhaps most impressive is that he averaged 20+ ppg only twice in his NBA career, maxing out at 23.7, and is still that high on the NBA-only list.

[1993Playoffs]

More evidence of why I’m So low on Bird

Amazing offensive player (more so in the regular season)

But he struggled on both ends in the playoffs a bit too often for me to rank him very high. As skilled as he was

[Doctor MJ]

For those interested, here's a spreadsheet that Odinn and I made with TS Add through the '20-21 season (I should go back and update).

All-time leaders (NBA & ABA) listed on the Career TS Add tab.

And yeah, Artis Gilmore ends up #2 on the list behind Kareem.

[Owly]

For those interested, here's a spreadsheet that Odinn and I made with TS Add through the '20-21 season (I should go back and update).

All-time leaders (NBA & ABA) listed on the Career TS Add tab.

And yeah, Artis Gilmore ends up #2 on the list behind Kareem.

Fwiw, last time I skimmed for gaps it seemed (so far as I could tell) comprehensive through 22) McHale (Howell [1891.1] should be next).

[Doctor MJ]

Nice list. Its tells a lot of about the best NBA scorers of all time. But I am shocked by two name's...How good was Miller and how far is Bird from his own legend as efficiency scorer (50/40/90 club, one of the best shooter of all time, career volume .890 FT shooter)

1. KAJ 4719
2. Wilt 3587
3. Oscar 3519
4. Miller 3450
5. Dantley 3110
6. Durant 3101
7. Barkley 2973
8. Malone 2914
9. Lebron 2839
10. O'Neal 2759
11. West 2687
12. Curry 2613
13. Stockton 2466
14. Harden 2395
15. Bellamy 2362
16. Dirk 2351
17. Allen 2130
18. Nash 2127
19. Magic 2099


Bird 1055

Glad that you wanted to through this data!

Re: Miller. Yup, he was incredible. Should have been an all-star as a matter of course every year if people back then had understood the game better.

Re: Bird. Echoing what others have said but with my own focus:

Bird's impact early on was not captured well by the box score. If we had +/- from the time, I'd be really surprised if he didn't have big numbers, by virtue of the way Boston became elite when Bird arrived, and the fact that Bird was the big minute player on the team.

I also think it's always important to look at extremely intelligent-looking play when considering non-box score impact. It's not a given - because highlights can skew perception - but if you have someone displaying extreme court awareness at all times, there's a good chance you'll find his +/- impact significantly surpasses the implication of the box score.

And of course there is the matter that we did see Bird become extremely efficient at volume eventually, so that along with the fact that we just plain know he was an incredible 3-point shooter based on the 3-point contests, really makes clear that Bird could see his volume/efficiency become outstanding in any subsequent era.

But his lack of great efficiency here does speak to something real that in a nutshell I'd put like this:

I think what Bird showed he could do is more impressive BBIQ-wise than his rival Magic...but I think Magic was taking an approach right from the beginning that was more optimal than Bird was. If you have an extremely good, quick decision maker on the court, you probably want them making as many of the on-ball decisions as possible, and while Magic insisted he be let to do this, Bird's instincts were to play smart within the off-ball role that you'd expect guys to play based on his size.

As a result, I think Magic has a pretty clear edge at having the better career back then, but I'm not sure this would still be true if they were drafted into the league today.

[Colbinii]

Bird's career TS% is going to be lower because of the breadth of shots he took from the start of his rookie season [averaging 17.8 FGA/G at slightly above league average efficiency with 102 eFG+] but didn't get to the line enough [80 FTr+]. Essentially, he was a basketball savant but not a scoring savant yet. In fact, his 2nd season he actually had a negative TS+ due to a horrific FTr+. Aside from watching the games, we can easily explain this--Bird was playing the most optimized basketball he could [at the time] in part because he was the player on the team who wasn't clogging the lane. He was soaking up the teams possession in the mid-range and long mid-range, allowing his team to cut and move between him [12-20 feet out from the rim] and the rim. Bird generated an efficient offense this way [2nd, 4th and 5th during his first 3 seasons in the NBA] despite being a league average scorer based on the numbers.

As Bird aged, he never truly became great [or good, or average] at producing free throws [Career high 90 FT+ in 1986] but he developed a healthy and all-time great shooting touch [peaking at 120 FT+] and midrange shot.

Something to think about and chew on:

During Bird's first 2 seasons, he was at 48% and 49% on 2P shots. During 1987 and 1988, Bird was up to 54.6% on 2P Shots. Before you assume he was taking more shots at the rim, his Free Throw Rate during his first 2 seasons was 23.2% and in 1987/1988 it was only 28.7%.

For Reference, Curry this season is at 26.6 FTR and shoots just 10% of his shots at the rim. LeBron James is somehow at 27.8 FTR this season but shooting an absurd 30% of his shots at the rim [This is a massive outlier in terms of FGA at rim and FTR]. Looking at a handful of other players, it's safe to assume Bird was posting 54.7% on 2PA when shooting somewhere between 15-30% of his shots at the rim.

[f4p]

i like TS Add, but are we sure the stat shouldn't be TS Above Replacement? aside from having a cooler acronym (TSAR), it just makes more sense.

is a +3 rTS% player really creating 3 times more value per shot than a +1 rTS% player? and infinitely more than a +0 rTS% player? is a guy scoring 10 ppg at +0.1 rTS% helping his team way more than a guy scoring 30 ppg at 0 rTS%? and the guy scoring 30 ppg at -0.1 rTS% is just hurting his team more and more with every shot?

i think most people would say no, and that there is some floor raising value in high volume, slightly less efficient scoring. TS Add seems to benefit lower volume, higher efficiency players too much.

now the question of where "replacement level" TS% is would be tough to figure out, but just using russell westbrook's career as a guide and saying some of his lesser seasons are probably bordering on replacement efficiency, i would say 90 TS+ is probably about replacement level. maybe you could be harsher and say 92 TS+ or more lenient and say 88 TS+, but i think it would be a better guide to appreciating the real difference in efficiency vs volume to use TSAR.