Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[dTox]

What are you implying here?

You say Pascal cowers under pressure and yet he's won a championship as a team's #2 scorer and scored the game winning basket in game 6.

Building a team around a 6'8 forward with a 52% TS% is a horrible idea. Scottie hasn't shown anything yet to warrant having a team built around him.

You do realize Siakam has a career 52.9% TS% during the playoffs right? Playing next to Kawhi will inflate anyone's TS% as the number 2 option, come on man this is clear bias against Scott, especially when you use the exact same number to put down one player, while ignoring it for the other.

Well clearly his 46.2% TS% will bring down those numbers. He also played a far more significant role than Scottie (2nd option in 2018, 1st option after that). Pascal's TS% was 66% in the 2018 playoffs. Reality is Pascal played an integral role in our championship run. He's a far better player now than what he was in 2019 as well.

It's not clear bias against Scottie. In fact, it's clear bias against Pascal because Scottie reaps the rewards of not getting any defensive attention as all of that attention goes to Pascal and Fred. Context is important.

So on one hand no mention of playing next to Kawhi for inflated TS%, but on the other hand taking away merits from Scottie since Siakam/Fred draw all the attention, who draw no where near the same amount of coverage as Kawhi, Kawhi creates much more open shots for his teammates than the likes of Siakam/Fred (it's not even close), not to mention also having one of the league's best passer spoon feed the entire team in Lowry, none of these advantages Scottie had during his first 2 years. This take makes little to no sense, since we are talking about a far superior prospect in Scottie vs Siakam year 2, ESPECIALLY when the team has a losing record

[TorontoBarneys]

Not sure I even buy that Siakam is "far better" now than he was in 2019. Are there any metrics to support this?

[Los_29]

You do realize Siakam has a career 52.9% TS% during the playoffs right? Playing next to Kawhi will inflate anyone's TS% as the number 2 option, come on man this is clear bias against Scott, especially when you use the exact same number to put down one player, while ignoring it for the other.

Well clearly his 46.2% TS% will bring down those numbers. He also played a far more significant role than Scottie (2nd option in 2018, 1st option after that). Pascal's TS% was 66% in the 2018 playoffs. Reality is Pascal played an integral role in our championship run. He's a far better player now than what he was in 2019 as well.

It's not clear bias against Scottie. In fact, it's clear bias against Pascal because Scottie reaps the rewards of not getting any defensive attention as all of that attention goes to Pascal and Fred. Context is important.

So on one hand no mention of playing next to Kawhi for inflated TS%, but on the other hand taking away merits from Scottie since Siakam/Fred draw all the attention, who draw no where near the same amount of coverage as Kawhi, creating much more open shots for his teammates, not to mention also having one of the league's best passer spoon feed the entire team in Lowry, none of these advantages Scottie had during his first 2 years.

Pascal averaged 19/8/3 in 21 games without Kawhi with splits of 55/29/79. Meanwhile Scottie is our 4th/5th option. Pascal clearly had to work a lot harder and got more defensive attention even with Kawhi than Scottie has ever gotten in his NBA career. Lowry is the GROAT but we have a tendency to overrate him. Kawhi has been just as efficient if not moreso in LA than he was with us. Pascal's TS% as a 1st option has been better without Kyle than with him. Powell's TS% has been the same in LA than it was with us. Meanwhile, Scottie is significantly more efficient with Fred in the lineup than without. So clearly, he is reaping some benefits to having Fred out there.

This whole argument stems from a poster claiming Pascal cowers under pressure while Scottie thrives and the team should be built around him. I simply pointed out an obvious fact that Pascal played a very important role during our championship run as our #2 option. Scottie's clutch stats are fantastic but context is very important. He gets little to no defensive attention compared to other players on the team. You just can't compare the two. Pascal was playing extremely intense, high stakes basketball as our 2nd option in our championship run.

I'm not saying Scottie will never be a player we can build around. It's just that he needs to show a lot more. I don't think that's a controversial take. Most likely, Scottie will be a player we use to compliment that #1 player. Just like Pascal should be in an ideal world.

[720]

Lol this is hilarious. A Fred fanatic calling Lowry overrated.

[srhcan]

He needs to be the undisputed 3rd option next season at the very least.

He needs to be a sharing 2nd option (#2a or #2b) with FVV or Siakam, whoever remains with the team. Raptors are missing #1 so one of FVV or Siakam needs to be traded + fillers for a #1. Ideally Siakam is gone from this team.

[Clay Davis]

You do realize Siakam has a career 52.9% TS% during the playoffs right? Playing next to Kawhi will inflate anyone's TS% as the number 2 option, come on man this is clear bias against Scott, especially when you use the exact same number to put down one player, while ignoring it for the other.

Well clearly his 46.2% TS% will bring down those numbers. He also played a far more significant role than Scottie (2nd option in 2018, 1st option after that). Pascal's TS% was 66% in the 2018 playoffs. Reality is Pascal played an integral role in our championship run. He's a far better player now than what he was in 2019 as well.

It's not clear bias against Scottie. In fact, it's clear bias against Pascal because Scottie reaps the rewards of not getting any defensive attention as all of that attention goes to Pascal and Fred. Context is important.

So on one hand no mention of playing next to Kawhi for inflated TS%, but on the other hand taking away merits from Scottie since Siakam/Fred draw all the attention, who draw no where near the same amount of coverage as Kawhi, Kawhi creates much more open shots for his teammates than the likes of Siakam/Fred (it's not even close), not to mention also having one of the league's best passer spoon feed the entire team in Lowry, none of these advantages Scottie had during his first 2 years. This take makes little to no sense, since we are talking about a far superior prospect in Scottie vs Siakam year 2, ESPECIALLY when the team has a losing record

Playing the "what if" game is always inferior to actually looking at what actually transpired. One is grounded in reality, the other is conjecture. Fact is is that we have hard evidence of Pascal being an extremely effective second option. On the other hand it's really not arguable that Scottie has a much better feel for the game than Pascal and a higher floor than Pascal had coming into the league.

I think that Barnes's floor, when he's in his prime, is to be as effective as peak Pascal is. On the other hand, whether he'll actually be able to put it together and execute is still up in the air. We've seen lots of players who seemed like killers when the stakes were low wither when the stakes got high. Pascal actually thrived when he had the most pressure on him in the finals.

[Raps in 4]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it. Like Fred has, with with his blistering 54% TS. Or Siakam has with his Steph-like 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game. It could hurt our winning culture.

[DreamTeam09]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a.bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it.

Fred has cemented his place in the pecking order with his blistering 54% TS.

And Siakam is basically the Steph Curry of PFs with his 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game.

To imply that Barnes hasn't gotten a chance to expand his game would be disingenuous tho, if that's what you or anyone else is actually trying to imply.

Again Mobley is in the exact same position as Barnes and I don't see cavs fans lamenting about his development like we do around here. Things take time, especially for a player who has to initiate some offense rather than relying on lobs & assist from others. For the most part ya'all want Barnes on the Jalen Green development type program, and I guarantee ya'all would still be complaining if we so that play-out in real life

[Los_29]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it. Like Fred has, with with his blistering 54% TS. Or Siakam has with his Steph-like 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game. It could hurt our winning culture.

Scottie putting up a 52% TS% as a 4th or 5th option is not good enough especially when he's 6'9 and 230lbs. He's well below the league average for his position while Fred despite his faults is just below the league average for his position. When you're that inefficient with such little defensive attention you usually get less of a role, not more.

[Raps in 4]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a.bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it.

Fred has cemented his place in the pecking order with his blistering 54% TS.

And Siakam is basically the Steph Curry of PFs with his 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game.

To imply that Barnes hasn't gotten a chance to expand his game would be disingenuous tho, if that's what you or anyone else is actually trying to imply.

Again Mobley is in the exact same position as Barnes and I don't see cavs fans lamenting about his development like we do around here. Things take time, especially for a player who has to initiate some offense rather than relying on lobs & assist from others. For the most part ya'all want Barnes on the Jalen Green development type program, and I guarantee ya'all would still be complaining if we so that play-out in real life

The Cavs are actually good, unlike us.

The reason for Barnes' lack of involvement is mostly because he plays the exact same position as Pascal. Which is fine.

But to argue that he sucks or needs to "earn" anything, as his haters do, is completely disingenuous when the best players on this team suffer from the same inefficiency woes.

Everyone on this team has sucked this year, that's why we're sitting at <.500 and battling to stay in the play-in. Barnes haters act like Barnes is playing with all-time greats and is the only player on the team struggling this season.

[DreamTeam09]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a.bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it.

Fred has cemented his place in the pecking order with his blistering 54% TS.

And Siakam is basically the Steph Curry of PFs with his 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game.

To imply that Barnes hasn't gotten a chance to expand his game would be disingenuous tho, if that's what you or anyone else is actually trying to imply.

Again Mobley is in the exact same position as Barnes and I don't see cavs fans lamenting about his development like we do around here. Things take time, especially for a player who has to initiate some offense rather than relying on lobs & assist from others. For the most part ya'all want Barnes on the Jalen Green development type program, and I guarantee ya'all would still be complaining if we so that play-out in real life

The Cavs are actually good, unlike us.

The reason for Barnes' lack of involvement is mostly because he plays the exact same position as Pascal. Which is fine.

But to argue that he sucks or needs to "earn" anything, as his haters do, is completely disingenuous when the best players on this team suffer from the same inefficiency woes.

Everyone on this team has sucked this year, that's why we're sitting at <.500 and battling to stay in the play-in. Barnes haters act like Barnes is playing with all-time greats and is the only player on the team struggling this season.

There's a fine line between earning & going out there and taking what needs to be taken. If Barnes efficiency was better, or if he was just better and more aggressive, he'd be able to take more then he is given. And we have seen him to do it plenty of times, especially in the 4th, so really it's a matter on him tbh.

Again, when you go to a park, the best players becomes pretty evident fairly quickly, and the ball naturally finds it way to that person...

But even last night, I seen players give up the ball early to Barnes to initiate. I even remember an inbound where Scottie wanted it, but the inbounder when to FVV, Barnes got frustrated, and FVV immediately sent it Barnes cross court to bring the ball up. Ya'all are in your heads more than team is about is

[Los_29]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a.bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it.

Fred has cemented his place in the pecking order with his blistering 54% TS.

And Siakam is basically the Steph Curry of PFs with his 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game.

To imply that Barnes hasn't gotten a chance to expand his game would be disingenuous tho, if that's what you or anyone else is actually trying to imply.

Again Mobley is in the exact same position as Barnes and I don't see cavs fans lamenting about his development like we do around here. Things take time, especially for a player who has to initiate some offense rather than relying on lobs & assist from others. For the most part ya'all want Barnes on the Jalen Green development type program, and I guarantee ya'all would still be complaining if we so that play-out in real life

The Cavs are actually good, unlike us.

The reason for Barnes' lack of involvement is mostly because he plays the exact same position as Pascal. Which is fine.

But to argue that he sucks or needs to "earn" anything, as his haters do, is completely disingenuous when the best players on this team suffer from the same inefficiency woes.

Everyone on this team has sucked this year, that's why we're sitting at <.500 and battling to stay in the play-in. Barnes haters act like Barnes is playing with all-time greats and is the only player on the team struggling this season.

Scottie has the lowest TS% out of anyone in the starting lineup as a 5th option. Teams don't even guard him out on the perimeter and you want to give him more responsibility? Why don't we give him a chance to succeed in the role he's in now before we give him even more responsibility which he's clearly not ready for.

[HumbleRen]

Siakam and Scottie have had the identical TS% since January 1st.

17/7/5 on 46/30/78 splits.

Don’t confuse scoring option with primary creator option, they’re both different things.

For example, Siakam was the 2nd scoring option on that 2018-2019 team but Lowry was the 2nd option after Kawhi.

[Mikistan]

To imply that Barnes hasn't gotten a chance to expand his game would be disingenuous tho, if that's what you or anyone else is actually trying to imply.

Again Mobley is in the exact same position as Barnes and I don't see cavs fans lamenting about his development like we do around here. Things take time, especially for a player who has to initiate some offense rather than relying on lobs & assist from others. For the most part ya'all want Barnes on the Jalen Green development type program, and I guarantee ya'all would still be complaining if we so that play-out in real life

The Cavs are actually good, unlike us.

The reason for Barnes' lack of involvement is mostly because he plays the exact same position as Pascal. Which is fine.

But to argue that he sucks or needs to "earn" anything, as his haters do, is completely disingenuous when the best players on this team suffer from the same inefficiency woes.

Everyone on this team has sucked this year, that's why we're sitting at <.500 and battling to stay in the play-in. Barnes haters act like Barnes is playing with all-time greats and is the only player on the team struggling this season.

Scottie has the lowest TS% out of anyone in the starting lineup as a 5th option. Teams don't even guard him out on the perimeter and you want to give him more responsibility? Why don't we give him a chance to succeed in the role he's in now before we give him even more responsibility which he's clearly not ready for.

OK Doug Smith

[Tha Cynic]

Well clearly his 46.2% TS% will bring down those numbers. He also played a far more significant role than Scottie (2nd option in 2018, 1st option after that). Pascal's TS% was 66% in the 2018 playoffs. Reality is Pascal played an integral role in our championship run. He's a far better player now than what he was in 2019 as well.

It's not clear bias against Scottie. In fact, it's clear bias against Pascal because Scottie reaps the rewards of not getting any defensive attention as all of that attention goes to Pascal and Fred. Context is important.

So on one hand no mention of playing next to Kawhi for inflated TS%, but on the other hand taking away merits from Scottie since Siakam/Fred draw all the attention, who draw no where near the same amount of coverage as Kawhi, creating much more open shots for his teammates, not to mention also having one of the league's best passer spoon feed the entire team in Lowry, none of these advantages Scottie had during his first 2 years.

Pascal averaged 19/8/3 in 21 games without Kawhi with splits of 55/29/79. Meanwhile Scottie is our 4th/5th option. Pascal clearly had to work a lot harder and got more defensive attention even with Kawhi than Scottie has ever gotten in his NBA career. Lowry is the GROAT but we have a tendency to overrate him. Kawhi has been just as efficient if not moreso in LA than he was with us. Pascal's TS% as a 1st option has been better without Kyle than with him. Powell's TS% has been the same in LA than it was with us. Meanwhile, Scottie is significantly more efficient with Fred in the lineup than without. So clearly, he is reaping some benefits to having Fred out there.

This whole argument stems from a poster claiming Pascal cowers under pressure while Scottie thrives and the team should be built around him. I simply pointed out an obvious fact that Pascal played a very important role during our championship run as our #2 option. Scottie's clutch stats are fantastic but context is very important. He gets little to no defensive attention compared to other players on the team. You just can't compare the two. Pascal was playing extremely intense, high stakes basketball as our 2nd option in our championship run.

I'm not saying Scottie will never be a player we can build around. It's just that he needs to show a lot more. I don't think that's a controversial take. Most likely, Scottie will be a player we use to compliment that #1 player. Just like Pascal should be in an ideal world.

You think a team with the best supporting cast in the NBA that season didn't make life easier for Siakam vs. a team today that is terrible offensively? Leonard, Lowry, Ibaka, Gasol, Green, Van Vleet, Powell, OG. Yeah, I think that veteran team knew a bit better how to play basketball than this iteration does. It took Siakam and Van Vleet 3/4 of this season to figure out that you need to play as a team to win lol.

You keep saying Barnes is a 4th or 5th option, but whatever he is, the defenses clearly shift to have multiple defenders focus on Barnes when he has the ball. You're essentially making things up when you say he isn't guarded like you have a habit of doing around here lol. In fact, opposing teams typically guard him very similar to the way they guard Siakam with a little less attention because they have the same strengths and weaknesses depending on which spot on the floor Barnes gets the ball. I think you have even said he is not guarded on the perimeter and even that's false. Generally you want him to take the jumper but you also don't want to ignore him or he will take it to the rim which is worse for your defense. That happened for like a 3 game stretch and teams quickly realize the kid was too smart to guard him like that.

By your own logic this team doesn't actually have anyone who should be featured over anyone else since none of them shoot well, so may as well give the young guy the chance.

[YogurtProducer]

Read on Twitter

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Exactly what I mentioned earlier. No one else on the team can pull these moves off like he can. He's doing fadeaways turning both ways now and looking smooth, hitting all net.

Amazing how much he's able to improve in season with these moves and shots.

Needs more reps!

LOL bruh that literally looks like how Siakam scores a lot of his points

[YogurtProducer]

So on one hand no mention of playing next to Kawhi for inflated TS%, but on the other hand taking away merits from Scottie since Siakam/Fred draw all the attention, who draw no where near the same amount of coverage as Kawhi, creating much more open shots for his teammates, not to mention also having one of the league's best passer spoon feed the entire team in Lowry, none of these advantages Scottie had during his first 2 years.

Pascal averaged 19/8/3 in 21 games without Kawhi with splits of 55/29/79. Meanwhile Scottie is our 4th/5th option. Pascal clearly had to work a lot harder and got more defensive attention even with Kawhi than Scottie has ever gotten in his NBA career. Lowry is the GROAT but we have a tendency to overrate him. Kawhi has been just as efficient if not moreso in LA than he was with us. Pascal's TS% as a 1st option has been better without Kyle than with him. Powell's TS% has been the same in LA than it was with us. Meanwhile, Scottie is significantly more efficient with Fred in the lineup than without. So clearly, he is reaping some benefits to having Fred out there.

This whole argument stems from a poster claiming Pascal cowers under pressure while Scottie thrives and the team should be built around him. I simply pointed out an obvious fact that Pascal played a very important role during our championship run as our #2 option. Scottie's clutch stats are fantastic but context is very important. He gets little to no defensive attention compared to other players on the team. You just can't compare the two. Pascal was playing extremely intense, high stakes basketball as our 2nd option in our championship run.

I'm not saying Scottie will never be a player we can build around. It's just that he needs to show a lot more. I don't think that's a controversial take. Most likely, Scottie will be a player we use to compliment that #1 player. Just like Pascal should be in an ideal world.

You think a team with the best supporting cast in the NBA that season didn't make life easier for Siakam vs. a team today that is terrible offensively? Leonard, Lowry, Ibaka, Gasol, Green, Van Vleet, Powell, OG. Yeah, I think that veteran team knew a bit better how to play basketball than this iteration does. It took Siakam and Van Vleet 3/4 of this season to figure out that you need to play as a team to win lol.

You keep saying Barnes is a 4th or 5th option, but whatever he is, the defenses clearly shift to have multiple defenders focus on Barnes when he has the ball. You're essentially making things up when you say he isn't guarded like you have a habit of doing around here lol. In fact, opposing teams typically guard him very similar to the way they guard Siakam with a little less attention because they have the same strengths and weaknesses depending on which spot on the floor Barnes gets the ball. I think you have even said he is not guarded on the perimeter and even that's false. Generally you want him to take the jumper but you also don't want to ignore him or he will take it to the rim which is worse for your defense. That happened for like a 3 game stretch and teams quickly realize the kid was too smart to guard him like that.

By your own logic this team doesn't actually have anyone who should be featured over anyone else since none of them shoot well, so may as well give the young guy the chance.

Scottie has been pretty cleared the 3rd option all year. OG / Poeltl are both clearly behind him in the starting lineup.

[YogurtProducer]

21 year-old Scottie Barnes is trash because he has a 53% TS. If he wants a bigger role on the team, he needs to earn it. Like Fred has, with with his blistering 54% TS. Or Siakam has with his Steph-like 56% TS.

No wonder the team is doing so well under their leadership. It would be dumb to give our top prospect a chance to expand his game. It could hurt our winning culture.

To be fair, 53% as a 3rd option is considerably worse than 54/56 as a 1st/2nd option. The lower in the scoring priority list you go you should be more efficient. Siakam for example had a 55TS% in the bench mob year as he was a key cog in those lineups, and then it skyrocketed to 63TS% when his role was very similar to Barnes' is this year.

Scottie needs to come back in next year and prove he deserves to be getting more shots / touches. To do that he needs to absolutely dominate his role and demand moving up the priority list. Below average efficiency is not gonna cut it. He needs to be 60TS% when you are in that role

[YogurtProducer]

Playing the "what if" game is always inferior to actually looking at what actually transpired. One is grounded in reality, the other is conjecture. Fact is is that we have hard evidence of Pascal being an extremely effective second option. On the other hand it's really not arguable that Scottie has a much better feel for the game than Pascal and a higher floor than Pascal had coming into the league.

I think that Barnes's floor, when he's in his prime, is to be as effective as peak Pascal is. On the other hand, whether he'll actually be able to put it together and execute is still up in the air. We've seen lots of players who seemed like killers when the stakes were low wither when the stakes got high. Pascal actually thrived when he had the most pressure on him in the finals.

While I hope you are right, it is quite high expectations to put on a guy to say his floor is a guy who made 2nd and 3rd team All-NBA.

[Los_29]

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Exactly what I mentioned earlier. No one else on the team can pull these moves off like he can. He's doing fadeaways turning both ways now and looking smooth, hitting all net.

Amazing how much he's able to improve in season with these moves and shots.

Needs more reps!

LOL bruh that literally looks like how Siakam scores a lot of his points

He's one of the least efficient starters in the league and yet you'd think he's the next KD from reading these last few pages.

"No one else on the team can pull these moves off like he can."

I'm a big fan of Scottie's potential but we have to be realistic with where he is at and what his strengths and weaknesses are.