Around the League: 2022-23 Season 3.0

Kobblehead · Post #1081 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:07 pm

I just don't see the point in valuing mid-range efficiency when a guy doesn't attempt field goals there. And I thought we concluded that volume supersedes percentage (within reason) when it comes to three. Does anyone care that Luka shoots poorly from three?

All that matters is overall scoring efficiency. Which Tatum is averaging over 30 ppg on over 60% true shooting.

Teams can't stop him. He's finishing at an elite 73.3% at the rim, he's bombing away hitting over 3 threes per game, and he's putting every defender that tries to guard him in foul trouble with his.398 free throw rate.

He's driving the 4th ranked offense and the Celtics are Finals favorites again for the 2nd year in a row. That's because of Tatum.

Kobblehead · Post #1082 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:11 pm

76ciology wrote:Anyway, that is subjective.

If Embiid plays for the Suns, while Booker plays for the Sixers. And if Doncic plays for the Celtics, while Tatum plays for the Mavs. Then its very likely to almost certain that Tatum and Booker wouldnt have made it to the finals.

Hypotheticals don't matter, though, only outcomes do.

You could say Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady may have won titles in L.A. playing with Shaq in an alternate universe. But in reality, they didn't accomplish anything and Kobe Bryant is in the GOAT conversation and they're just footnotes of the era.

Embiid, Doncic, and Morant need to get to a Finals to be in the conversation with Tatum and Booker. And right now, Giannis has the comfortable separation over everyone.

Bum Adebayo · Post #1083 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:37 pm

Devin Booker is the 53th best player in the league, he doesn't belong here. 23th in 21-22, 44th in 20-21, clearly not that guy.
Also he's only had 1 season above 60% TS out of 8 seasons, he has been below that the rest of the seasons. Considering that his defense is mediocre at best? yeah sorry but no, Tatum is on an entirely different league.

Kobblehead · Post #1084 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:19 pm

Tatum: 22.4 ppg, 2.4 makes from three at 37.5%, .294 ftr at 84.8%, 11.2% rebounding, 16% assist, 1.6% steal, 1.8% block
Booker: 23.9 ppg, 2.9 makes from three at 35.8%, .317 ftr at 86.7%, 6.4% rebounding, 23.7% assist, 1.2% steal, 0.7% block

- Tatum is 6'8" 210 pounds. Booker is 6'5" 206 pounds.
- Tatum took his team to the Finals in year 5. Booker took his team to the Finals in year 6.

Literally can't go wrong between them. I'll give Tatum the slight edge because he's bigger and more impactful on the defensive end. But Booker is unquestionably the 3rd best Under 30 player in the league right now. That is, until some of the other guys with great regular season numbers accomplish what he has in the postseason.

Bum Adebayo · Post #1085 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:57 pm

Defense matters, tatum is a good defender and booker is mediocre to bad.
It's not like Booker is a great playmaker, he is just okish and that's it, his ast% is closer to Embiid than it is to the elite playmakers. Embiid is a much better scorer, yeah not at shooting 3pt shots but who cares how it's done, the difference in TS% is outstanding.

Kobblehead · Post #1086 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:11 pm

Tatum's defense is not good, he's actually defending at career low marks. He's just better than Booker defensively based on size and length.

Embiid needs to take us to the Finals before he enters the conversation. Until then, he's grouped together with Luka, Ja, Nikola.

blargh · Post #1087 » by **blargh** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:13 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
76ciology wrote:Anyway, that is subjective.

If Embiid plays for the Suns, while Booker plays for the Sixers. And if Doncic plays for the Celtics, while Tatum plays for the Mavs. Then its very likely to almost certain that Tatum and Booker wouldnt have made it to the finals.

Hypotheticals don't matter, though, only outcomes do.

You could say Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady may have won titles in L.A. playing with Shaq in an alternate universe. But in reality, they didn't accomplish anything and Kobe Bryant is in the GOAT conversation and they're just footnotes of the era.

Embiid, Doncic, and Morant need to get to a Finals to be in the conversation with Tatum and Booker. And right now, Giannis has the comfortable separation over everyone.

Why are we making an arbitrary cutoff around getting to the Finals? Because Booker helped hang a Conference champion banner that no one cares about? Vince Carter might not be in the GOAT conversation, but no one is picking Allan Houston over him just because Houston led one team to the Finals.

Agree that winning a ring puts Giannis in a different tier.

Kobblehead · Post #1088 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:22 pm

blargh wrote:Why are we making an arbitrary cutoff around getting to the Finals? Because Booker helped hang a Conference champion banner that no one cares about? Vince Carter might not be in the GOAT conversation, but no one is picking Allan Houston over him just because Houston led one team to the Finals.

Agree that winning a ring puts Giannis in a different tier.

That's because Allan Houston is a guy with just two career 20 ppg seasons. Also, that Finals trip was a lockout year where the Knicks went 27-23 so the feat just isn't impressive.

You know who everyone would unequivocally take over Vince Carter, though? Allen Iverson. A guy with all the regular season numbers Vince had AND a Finals trip.

Great players getting their teams to the Finals is absolutely a huge deal.

If Booker peaks with that Finals trip and then eventually bails on Phoenix and becomes a mercenary dweeb like Shaq, LeBron, Durant, etc, so be it. But for now, that Finals trip puts him tied for #2 with Tatum and just behind #1 Giannis as the best players under 30.

Sixteen · Post #1089 » by **Sixteen** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:24 pm

KCP sold me

blargh · Post #1090 » by **blargh** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:34 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
blargh wrote:Why are we making an arbitrary cutoff around getting to the Finals? Because Booker helped hang a Conference champion banner that no one cares about? Vince Carter might not be in the GOAT conversation, but no one is picking Allan Houston over him just because Houston led one team to the Finals.

Agree that winning a ring puts Giannis in a different tier.

That's because Allan Houston is a guy with just two career 20 ppg seasons. Also, that Finals trip was a lockout year where the Knicks went 27-23 so the feat just isn't impressive.

You know who everyone would unequivocally take over Vince Carter, though? Allen Iverson. A guy with all the regular season numbers Vince had AND a Finals trip.

Great players getting their teams to the Finals is absolutely a huge deal.

If Booker peaks with that Finals trip and then eventually bails on Phoenix and becomes a mercenary dweeb like Shaq, LeBron, Durant, etc, so be it. But for now, that Finals trip puts him tied for #2 with Tatum and just behind #1 Giannis as the best players under 30.

Okay, but my point is that the gap in career numbers (even career playoff numbers)between Booker and a guy like Embiid is not small: it’s massive. Booker has never credibly sniffed MVP contention. It’s too much of a gap to overcome just because of a lucky Kawhi bounce.

Kobblehead · Post #1091 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:49 pm

Embiid doesn't get to get a pass, though. He needs to deliver when it matters most.

Trae Young's numbers are massive, too. That's not enough to get you in the conversation.

Jailblazers7 · Post #1092 » by **Jailblazers7** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:17 pm

Tatum gets the team success boost but Booker doesn’t imo. Tatum has been in contention with deep playoff runs consistently throughout his career. Booker had one good year sandwiched between leading lotto teams & getting curb stomped by Luka in a game 7.

Kobblehead · Post #1093 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:21 pm

The Suns have been a garbage organization with a garbage owner. Booker getting them to the Finals is a great feat. Towns and Fox were dealt similarly bad hands, but haven't achieved what Booker has.

Tatum got drafted to a gold standard organization. Not holding it against him, but that's just facts.

Jailblazers7 · Post #1094 » by **Jailblazers7** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:47 pm

Kobblehead wrote:The Suns have been a garbage organization with a garbage owner. Booker getting them to the Finals is a great feat. Towns and Fox were dealt similarly bad hands, but haven't achieved what Booker has.

Tatum got drafted to a gold standard organization. Not holding it against him, but that's just facts.

Doesn’t change him getting blown out in one of the most embarrassing games against an under 30 rival in Luka. That’s a massive reputation hit.

Generally, I think you’re putting way too much emphasis on a single playoff run. On the way to the Finals, the Suns beat the Lakers (w/o AD), Nuggets (w/o Murray), and Clippers (w/o Kawhi). Respect for getting there but that doesn’t make him some unimpeachable top player in the league.

M2J · Post #1095 » by **M2J** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:13 pm

Tatum has also had playoff choke jobs.

I think he's going to win an MVP and a championship someday. Because they are a talented team, but he's not on some of these guys levels right now.

To 76s point. He's a 3pt or at the rim threat by choice. That is why I brought up the Harden comparison. The reason he was the primary guy had some major flops is because of that style in the playoffs. Teams can overplay your 3 or give it to you when you're missing (again traditionally both of them take tough off the dribble 3s at an average percentage) and defend the rim. Important to be able to take what the defense gives you as a perimeter player, and again at least Harden is an elite passer.

Joel injuries are a big part of his postseason story, as well as Ben Simmons.

Kobblehead · Post #1096 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:14 pm

We've seen Joel Embiid average 17 ppg on 37% field goal shooting in the Raptors series. We've seen Joel Embiid as a 1 seed get bounced by Trae Young and a trash Hawks squad.

Booker and Tatum deserve to be placed in a tier above the rest of those guys until they can match the accomplishment. Get to the Finals! Stop flaming out in the early rounds.

Bum Adebayo · Post #1097 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:52 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Embiid doesn't get to get a pass, though. He needs to deliver when it matters most.

Trae Young's numbers are massive, too. That's not enough to get you in the conversation.

They are really not, only 1 year at 60% TS and this season he is slightly below league average in TS%. Yeah his playmaking is very good, but his defense is just atrocious. So yeah, not massive numbers by any means. Harden would be a much better example if you don't count when he was a 6th man with Thunder, or Luka.

M2J · Post #1098 » by **M2J** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:27 pm

I can respect these guy's accomplishments and also realize they're not as good as the guy that could've won MVP the last 2 years, and leading right now. They were just in different situations.

Yes Joel lost to the Hawks in a series where Ben lost his career and his mind., and without Danny Green and with a MCL injury.

Toronto.... Knee injury as well. But yes terrible series offensively... Though they would've won it due to his defense if they had a back up center that could play 10 minutes.

I'm not really trying to discuss careers either... I've gone on record to say how great I think Tatum WILL be, but he's inconsistent right now.

Kobblehead · Post #1099 » by **Kobblehead** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:56 pm

I'm sure there were a million excuses and circumstances why Vince Carter never went to the finals either. Nobody cares and it's not recorded in the history. Results and accomplishments are all the matter. Embiid needs to take us to the Finals. We cannot flameout again.

M2J · Post #1100 » by **M2J** » Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:11 am

Kobblehead wrote:I'm sure there were a million excuses and circumstances why Vince Carter never went to the finals either. Nobody cares and it's not recorded in the history. Results and accomplishments are all the matter. Embiid needs to take us to the Finals. We cannot flameout again.

Absolutely true, but I'm not referring to careers. My point is where Tatum should be viewed now.

In the long run Joel definitely needs to get it going. I think he has a 2 year window in Philly