Does Tom Thibodeau deserve an apology?

[BKlutch]

Statistics:

FIELD GOAL %
25th in NBA
46.5 FG%

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

POINTS SCORED
14th
115 PPG

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

TOTAL REBOUNDS
2nd
47.0 RPG

So we're not good in FGs, 3 PTs, Points Scored, or 3 Pt.%. We're only good in Rebounds. Yet here we are, outperforming our stats. Yes, it has to do with both defense and how we play offens (we're better in the paint and getting FTs, etc).

Serious question: how does this reflect on the coach(es)?

[DrCoach]

Yes

[robillionaire]

Statistics:

FIELD GOAL %
25th in NBA
46.5 FG%

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

POINTS SCORED
14th
115 PPG

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

TOTAL REBOUNDS
2nd
47.0 RPG

So we're not good in FGs, 3 PTs, Points Scored, or 3 Pt.%. We're only good in Rebounds. Yet here we are, outperforming our stats. Yes, it has to do with both defense and how we play offens (we're better in the paint and getting FTs, etc).

Serious question: how does this reflect on the coach(es)?

We are tied for 6th in ppg allowed and 3rd in opponent 3pt% and 3rd in opponent fg% so that’s good, I’d say it’s a good defensive team

[BKlutch]

Statistics:

FIELD GOAL %
25th in NBA
46.5 FG%

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

POINTS SCORED
14th
115 PPG

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

TOTAL REBOUNDS
2nd
47.0 RPG

So we're not good in FGs, 3 PTs, Points Scored, or 3 Pt.%. We're only good in Rebounds. Yet here we are, outperforming our stats. Yes, it has to do with both defense and how we play offens (we're better in the paint and getting FTs, etc).

Serious question: how does this reflect on the coach(es)?

We are tied for 6th in ppg allowed and 3rd in opponent 3pt% and 3rd in opponent fg% so that’s good, I’d say it’s a good defensive team

It's that, and how well we play in the paint on offense. We're playing differently than most other teams do, so that could contribute to how unpleasant we are to play against.

[Kampuchea]

Thibs is one of the NBA best. Should be here for 10 year contract

[robillionaire]

Statistics:

FIELD GOAL %
25th in NBA
46.5 FG%

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

POINTS SCORED
14th
115 PPG

3-POINT %
22nd
34.8 3P%

TOTAL REBOUNDS
2nd
47.0 RPG

So we're not good in FGs, 3 PTs, Points Scored, or 3 Pt.%. We're only good in Rebounds. Yet here we are, outperforming our stats. Yes, it has to do with both defense and how we play offens (we're better in the paint and getting FTs, etc).

Serious question: how does this reflect on the coach(es)?

We are tied for 6th in ppg allowed and 3rd in opponent 3pt% and 3rd in opponent fg% so that’s good, I’d say it’s a good defensive team

It's that, and how well we play in the paint on offense. We're playing differently than most other teams do, so that could contribute to how unpleasant we are to play against.

Yeah maybe so. I also see we have a +2.9 point differential so that tells me the record isn't flukey either. That's 7th in the NBA behind the Bucks at +3.8 and right in line with our 8th league best record. Scarily, the Cavs have a +5.6 point differential which is the highest in the nba. I think they're being slept on probably

[FrozenEnvelope]

Thibs is a good HC who's done a great job! If you cannot admit it, you don't know basketball.

[Gravy]

Fans here said this was supposed to be the 12th talented roster in the east, so Thibs is elite to have them playing this well. Tell me which NBA coaches are better than Thibs and whats their record and do they have a better roster than the Knicks.

The guy who got a raw deal here was Fizdale, he was told to win with a starting backcourt of Frank and rookie RJ. The bench was DSJ, Knox, Trier, and Dotson. Most coaches are as good as their roster.

agreed on 1st point

As far as fizdale goes he got fired in december when we were 4-18 and interim coach mike miller finished it out 17-27 so I think even with the terrible roster Fizdale was pretty bad

There was a huge overlooked difference between Fizdale and Miller's rosters though. Elfrid Payton got injured 4 games into the season and did not come back until the day before he was fired. Which means Frank started all those games with virtually no backup pg. Fizdale caught most of the blame for Frank being that terrible. This was the Frank hysteria days so saying he was awful was profane lol. Then they made the Morris trade which helped balance the roster more. Not saying Fizdale was good but he was given the worst roster in the NBA

[BKlutch]

We are tied for 6th in ppg allowed and 3rd in opponent 3pt% and 3rd in opponent fg% so that’s good, I’d say it’s a good defensive team

It's that, and how well we play in the paint on offense. We're playing differently than most other teams do, so that could contribute to how unpleasant we are to play against.

Yeah maybe so. I also see we have a +2.9 point differential so that tells me the record isn't flukey either. That's 7th in the NBA behind the Bucks at +3.8 and right in line with our 8th league best record. Scarily, the Cavs have a +5.6 point differential which is the highest in the nba. I think they're being slept on probably

Your use of the word "scarily" did not go unnoticed. Yes, we are currently in position to play the Cavs in the opening round. But I'm not scared — I'm glad we're going to be in the playoffs and give other teams a hard time. Whatever we do, I'm hoping to enjoy the games and expecting it won't play out the same was as against Atlanta 2 seasons ago. We're growing as a team, so I'm not scared. It's also possible that matchups are more idiosyncratic that revealed in stats, and one team can match up well against a better team, but not well against a worse team. That's one reason why they play games instead of just matching stats.

[Nostrand Ave]

Let's see how he preps for the playoffs before we start giving him flowers.

[Galou]

Well unlike some posters I wasn't on the bandwagon of down playing thibs.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Let's see how he preps for the playoffs before we start giving him flowers.

IDGAF if they win a title. I'm not giving him shyt. The players are doing all of the work.

[moocow007]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor want to chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started. Perspective if what most people (not just fans but people in general) lack.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

So no, nothing really has changed for me.

[nykballa2k4]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

Sound arguments.

My wishlist at this point is for a) Thibs to actually create functional inbounds plays for the final 2 minutes. b) to make sure Randle is not handling the ball near double teams on big possessions. If we are not going to use Rose, than perhaps we need to call Wall or something just to have a true ball handler in reserve.

[KnicksGadfly]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor want to chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started. Perspective if what most people (not just fans but people in general) lack.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

So no, nothing really has changed for me.

False narrative. People were primarily upset Randle didn’t work hard last year and had a bad attitude. The inability to admit that also takes away important credit for Randle and the people in his life responsible for his improvement this season. Also a bit weird cause Randle admitted it on his own that he had these issues.

[nykballa2k4]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor want to chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started. Perspective if what most people (not just fans but people in general) lack.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

So no, nothing really has changed for me.

False narrative. People were primarily upset Randle didn’t work hard last year and had a bad attitude. The inability to admit that also takes away important credit for Randle and the people in his life responsible for his improvement this season. Also a bit weird cause Randle admitted it on his own that he had these issues.

Just a correction.. Randle was working hard, but his mind wasn't right. Working long/working wrong.

[DOT]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor want to chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started. Perspective if what most people (not just fans but people in general) lack.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

So no, nothing really has changed for me.

False narrative. People were primarily upset Randle didn’t work hard last year and had a bad attitude. The inability to admit that also takes away important credit for Randle and the people in his life responsible for his improvement this season. Also a bit weird cause Randle admitted it on his own that he had these issues.

Yeah, it's hard to have a serious conversation when even legitimate criticism of Randle was met with "you're just mad he isn't LeBron, stop complaining."

[Billy Goat]

Best coach the franchise has had since JVG

[robillionaire]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor want to chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started. Perspective if what most people (not just fans but people in general) lack.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

So no, nothing really has changed for me.

False narrative. People were primarily upset Randle didn’t work hard last year and had a bad attitude. The inability to admit that also takes away important credit for Randle and the people in his life responsible for his improvement this season. Also a bit weird cause Randle admitted it on his own that he had these issues.

his "attitude" was caused by agenda driven fans attacking him first because they wanted superstar first option RJ and Toppin to start, but nobody will ever admit that, but it still takes away nothing from the fact that he got some meditation work and ignored the noise and overcame it anyway

[moocow007]

Depends on whether you went overboard (the other way) to begin with. Same as was the case with Randle.

Fans tend to get carried away with IMO a lot of unrealistic expectations of players and coaches. The same way to basically expect Randle to be Lebron James (basically soloing by himself for team success) was unfair and unrealistic, expecting Thibodeau to take a team that only had Randle as his Lebron James to anything was also unrealistic.

Folks saw what Randle could do in his MIP season and expected that to be the norm regardless of who was (or rather wasn't) on his floor with him. Folks bring up Thibs time with the Bulls and expected that to be the norm regardless of what players he had to coach here (compared to what he had in Chicago). Just as it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Randle to keep single handedly carrying the Knicks to anything, it was unfair and unrealistic to expect Thibs to get a team that had Randle as the only real talent to anything.

There's a reason talent and team building are critical for success in professional sports. If it wasn't every team would be winning right? Why would any team not want to win if talent and team building wasn't important? Up until the additions of Brunson and Hart this team lacked the talent and team to do much of anything. Without more talent and better teammates Randle would have to be prime Lebron and Thibs would have to be Red Auerbach to do what fans demanded that they be able to do. Talking fantasy land not reality.

That's also the reason why you never saw me want to lynch Randle nor chuck Thibs out with the dirty bath water. Both player and coach are very very good but they are not elite elite. So for them to be successful you need to give them help and not expect them to pull miracles out their butt. The Knicks FO (the party that should bear most of the blame) appears to have gotten things right more and more often than they did when they started.

If anything it's the FO that should be getting a good amount of credit for how they are playing now (they got Brunson and they got Hart, adding significant talent and team play) just like they deserved a good amount of the blame when they sucked (by making mind boggling contract offers/signings and head scratching collection followed by punting of draft picks...and not much of anything else).

Sound arguments.

My wishlist at this point is for a) Thibs to actually create functional inbounds plays for the final 2 minutes. b) to make sure Randle is not handling the ball near double teams on big possessions. If we are not going to use Rose, than perhaps we need to call Wall or something just to have a true ball handler in reserve.

Yeah.

Item a) may be hard as Thibs (and every other veteran coach that's been successful) tend to be set in their ways. I do see some changes now from when he was coaching other teams so that is a plus but I wouldn't expect significant changes.

As far as b) goes I think we're already seeing that. Rather than Randle getting the ball out by the 3 point line early in the shot clock and watching him dribble the clock down (trying to figure out who to pass it to or whether he should take it himself...like a Lebron James would), we're seeing Brunson manage the clock in those situations. Randle still gets the ball but it's usually when he's in a better position to do something with it. Not all the time, but definitely noticeably more often than in previous seasons.

Is he always successful? No. But he's more successful than ever before. Part of it is because the vibe has changed but also because he's getting the ball in more advantageous situations where he can try to use his talent to exploit the defender than being a one man gang. Also even the top players in the league aren't always successful...fans seem to forget that (and Randle is clearly not among the top players in the league).

Was it his fault for being that one man gang?

I'll go back to what I said before, who was he going to pass it to and, more importantly, he's a PF not a PG and not Lebron James like, so expecting him to be able to figure all that out (when to pass, when to shoot, when to do everything...especially in crunch time) is a bit unrealistic to say the least...and that's why he failed (cause he's not Lebron James like). Folks act surprised when that happens for some reason.

Difference this season? With Brunson, he's not had to do that...and the result is he's playing terrific cause he's now focusing on what he actually is real good at (scoring rather than trying to be a Lebron like one man gang).