Game 71: Phoenix Suns (38-32) @ Oklahoma City Thunder (34-36) l Sunday l 12:30pm l BSAZ

[Jdiddy701]

A lot to still work on as I've said many times. But at least we had Biyombo and Landale to carry the frontcourt load in Ayton's absence huh? To show why we don't really need a player like Ayton and we can just prioritize cheaperoptions " by committee" strategy.......... right? Playing against a Thunder team with no discernible or dominant starting bigs (currently). And how did they do again??

Biyombo- 7 points/ 6 rebounds.
Landale- 5 points/ 3 rebounds.
So together they amassed maybe 12 points and 9 rebounds!! This strategy should do wonders for us in the postseason against elite frontcourts for sure! Also got beat with points in the paint by 16 ( 54 - 38). It might be reasonable to be very selective with how we view Ayton's value to us for the rest of this season? But in fairness, maybe Biyombo and Landale will prove me wrong against Anthony Davis, Domatas Sabonis, Joel Embiid, Lauri Markannen/ Walker Kessler, Gobert/ KAT, Jokic etc coming up?

That's basically DA's season average against OKC this season (13/9). Last season it was 12/10 and the season before it was 6/9.

So still, Even in what we'd consider severely disappointing or struggling for him, he's putting up the equivalent of what two of our backup bigs are offering. In other words, it takes two combined frontcourt players to put up close to Ayton's average ( against the Thunder) even in a down season when struggling. By the way, In the games Ayton played vs the ones that Landale and Biyombo played, How many of the games you're mentioning against OKC have we lost, how many ( with Ayton playing) have we gotten outrebounded or beaten significantly ( by double digits) in the paint?? Also, considering that the Thunder don't have anything resembling a starting frontcourt with legitimate bigs! And they still got fairly dominated?

Biyombo and Landale are fine players FOR THE BENCH. But they're not nearly capable of providing the same production/ impact that Ayton can on the game as starters and against starting level frontcourts. Especially not in terms of efficiency, and defensive versatility and more so not against legitimate elite level starting bigs like the ones that I've mentioned we'll face in our upcoming games and in the playoffs. But if they somehow outperform their already established value/ role, then I'll be the first to admit ( wholeheartedly) that I misjudged them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform against the elite bigs they'll be facing in these upcoming games.

Do you realize you’re comparing a player on max a contract to two players that are trying to make NBA rosters? Give it a rest, man.


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[Qwigglez]

I knew DA wouldn't get 20/10 this game. A big fat 0/0

Unfortunately this was not what I wanted to wake up to. I think if healthy, Suns are the best team in the league. But without one of our two pillars holding us up (Booker/Durant) Suns are just too unbalanced and it will take a monumental effort from someone else on the team to get the dub.

[Ghost of Kleine]

That's basically DA's season average against OKC this season (13/9). Last season it was 12/10 and the season before it was 6/9.

So still, Even in what we'd consider severely disappointing or struggling for him, he's putting up the equivalent of what two of our backup bigs are offering. In other words, it takes two combined frontcourt players to put up close to Ayton's average ( against the Thunder) even in a down season when struggling. By the way, In the games Ayton played vs the ones that Landale and Biyombo played, How many of the games you're mentioning against OKC have we lost, how many ( with Ayton playing) have we gotten outrebounded or beaten significantly ( by double digits) in the paint?? Also, considering that the Thunder don't have anything resembling a starting frontcourt with legitimate bigs! And they still got fairly dominated?

Biyombo and Landale are fine players FOR THE BENCH. But they're not nearly capable of providing the same production/ impact that Ayton can on the game as starters and against starting level frontcourts. Especially not in terms of efficiency, and defensive versatility and more so not against legitimate elite level starting bigs like the ones that I've mentioned we'll face in our upcoming games and in the playoffs. But if they somehow outperform their already established value/ role, then I'll be the first to admit ( wholeheartedly) that I misjudged them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform against the elite bigs they'll be facing in these upcoming games.

Do you realize you’re comparing a player on max a contract to two players that are trying to make NBA rosters? Give it a rest, man.


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Of course I do man! That's why I said in my post that it isn't fair to expect them to perform or contribute (basically) at the same level as a starting level (or a max ) big. But again, the argument premise isn't in terms of contractual/ salary comparison/ contrast disparities. But in terms of comparative impact/ production for our matchup needs. And how that value ( from production/ impact whether offensively or defensively should be valued/ assessed). Biyombo and Landale have already established their respective values in the league as obviously indicated by their respective roles and contractual salaries.

They're fine in their respective bench roles and fill those roles adequately. But they're not nearly capable of sustaining such production in a starting role and playing heavy minutes against elite starting level bigs. Ayton's hot and cold motor and aversion to physicality make it seem like he's overpaid ( which he very well might be)?? But the market establishes value. So that arguments fairly mute. The premise of this argument is based upon role, impact, perspective value in terms of matchups against elite level starters, or even everyday starting level frontcourt bigs. And given each player's respective impacts/ productional capacities/ defensive capabilities, my point remains that ( per my initial post), it might he reasonable to he more selective with how we value/ measure Ayton's overall value ( in his role for us this season).

Or more simply put............................. We might be unfairly undervaluing Ayton's importance/ impact to us being highly competitive in his role against starting bigs ( given what we've seen today against OKC's dominant frontcourt of Jaylin Williams (rookie) and Dario Saric!

Again! Biyombo and Landale are fine in a bench role (for their production and impact). But they're simply not capable of handling a starting role productively and offering similar impact against the elite starting level frontcourts we'll need to get past to even get back to the finals. So this absence will help clarify potential value miscalculations or undervaluing impulses?

[garrick]

A lot to still work on as I've said many times. But at least we had Biyombo and Landale to carry the frontcourt load in Ayton's absence huh? To show why we don't really need a player like Ayton and we can just prioritize cheaperoptions " by committee" strategy.......... right? Playing against a Thunder team with no discernible or dominant starting bigs (currently). And how did they do again??

Biyombo- 7 points/ 6 rebounds.
Landale- 5 points/ 3 rebounds.
So together they amassed maybe 12 points and 9 rebounds!! This strategy should do wonders for us in the postseason against elite frontcourts for sure! Also got beat with points in the paint by 16 ( 54 - 38). It might be reasonable to be very selective with how we view Ayton's value to us for the rest of this season? But in fairness, maybe Biyombo and Landale will prove me wrong against Anthony Davis, Domatas Sabonis, Joel Embiid, Lauri Markannen/ Walker Kessler, Gobert/ KAT, Jokic etc coming up?

That's basically DA's season average against OKC this season (13/9). Last season it was 12/10 and the season before it was 6/9.

So still, Even in what we'd consider severely disappointing or struggling for him, he's putting up the equivalent of what two of our backup bigs are offering. In other words, it takes two combined frontcourt players to put up close to Ayton's average ( against the Thunder) even in a down season when struggling. By the way, In the games Ayton played vs the ones that Landale and Biyombo played, How many of the games you're mentioning against OKC have we lost, how many ( with Ayton playing) have we gotten outrebounded or beaten significantly ( by double digits) in the paint?? Also, considering that the Thunder don't have anything resembling a starting frontcourt with legitimate bigs! And they still got fairly dominated?

Biyombo and Landale are fine players FOR THE BENCH. But they're not nearly capable of providing the same production/ impact that Ayton can on the game as starters and against starting level frontcourts. Especially not in terms of efficiency, and defensive versatility and more so not against legitimate elite level starting bigs like the ones that I've mentioned we'll face in our upcoming games and in the playoffs. But if they somehow outperform their already established value/ role, then I'll be the first to admit ( wholeheartedly) that I misjudged them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform against the elite bigs they'll be facing in these upcoming games.

DA also affects the game more than Jock and Bismack since none of them draw much concern from the defense and Biz in particular is useless outside of 5 feet from the paint.

I think we win this with DA and it's hard for this team to win with Book and a team full of scrubs, hell our two forwards are minimum deal type players so any team starting either Craig or Okogie is going to struggle to win games.

We should have kept Dario since he at least can bring a bit of scoring now that Craig forgot how to score and Okogie is an unreliable 3 pt shooter.

[lilfishi22]

A lot to still work on as I've said many times. But at least we had Biyombo and Landale to carry the frontcourt load in Ayton's absence huh? To show why we don't really need a player like Ayton and we can just prioritize cheaperoptions " by committee" strategy.......... right? Playing against a Thunder team with no discernible or dominant starting bigs (currently). And how did they do again??

Biyombo- 7 points/ 6 rebounds.
Landale- 5 points/ 3 rebounds.
So together they amassed maybe 12 points and 9 rebounds!! This strategy should do wonders for us in the postseason against elite frontcourts for sure! Also got beat with points in the paint by 16 ( 54 - 38). It might be reasonable to be very selective with how we view Ayton's value to us for the rest of this season? But in fairness, maybe Biyombo and Landale will prove me wrong against Anthony Davis, Domatas Sabonis, Joel Embiid, Lauri Markannen/ Walker Kessler, Gobert/ KAT, Jokic etc coming up?

That's basically DA's season average against OKC this season (13/9). Last season it was 12/10 and the season before it was 6/9.

So still, Even in what we'd consider severely disappointing or struggling for him, he's putting up the equivalent of what two of our backup bigs are offering. In other words, it takes two combined frontcourt players to put up close to Ayton's average ( against the Thunder) even in a down season when struggling. By the way, In the games Ayton played vs the ones that Landale and Biyombo played, How many of the games you're mentioning against OKC have we lost, how many ( with Ayton playing) have we gotten outrebounded or beaten significantly ( by double digits) in the paint?? Also, considering that the Thunder don't have anything resembling a starting frontcourt with legitimate bigs! And they still got fairly dominated?

Biyombo and Landale are fine players FOR THE BENCH. But they're not nearly capable of providing the same production/ impact that Ayton can on the game as starters and against starting level frontcourts. Especially not in terms of efficiency, and defensive versatility and more so not against legitimate elite level starting bigs like the ones that I've mentioned we'll face in our upcoming games and in the playoffs. But if they somehow outperform their already established value/ role, then I'll be the first to admit ( wholeheartedly) that I misjudged them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform against the elite bigs they'll be facing in these upcoming games.

OKC has no above average bigs to cause real problems for our front court but the discussion here isn't about how much better DA is compared to two bench players on the vet min but rather how close they are to DA's production. As many have said before, there's no question or argument that a max level DA should be better than two min level guys and when we're talking about DA at his best, he's absolutely an elite player. But time and time again (more often than I would like), we have these discussions about DA playing down to the level of these two vet min guys this season, last season with McGee/Biz, the season before with Saric/Frank and the season before that with Baynes/Frank/Saric. It literally happens every year.

Doing some quick mafs, the Suns are 29-8 over the past 3 seasons when DA doesn't play. That's a 78% win rate. Comparatively, we're 124-64 when he does play which equates to a 66% win rate. If we take this season out because of injuries to important players to this team, it's a 74% win rate when he plays and 76% when he doesn't. This doesn't paint the whole picture because it doesn't tell us about our biggest wins where we needed the best DA like in the 2021 playoffs where we got all the way to the Finals. It's also not suggesting we're necessarily a better team without DA because (credit to him), it's a relatively small sample size compared to a regular season + playoffs but it's that we've somehow, fairly consistently, found ways to make do without a max level player in the line up which is telling. For reference, in the same 3 season time frame (including this season), the Suns are 22-24 (48% win rate) when Book doesn't play and 131-47 (74%) when he does which tells me we're categorically a worse team when Book doesn't play.

So to be clear, I'm not arguing we're a better team without DA and I certainly don't want to make do with Biz/Landale as our C rotation moving forward either. This exercise of counting wins isn't all that scientific either but my only point is that our W/L's doesn't seem to be as impacted by when DA plays or not as it does for someone like Book or some other true max level players.

[garrick]

That's basically DA's season average against OKC this season (13/9). Last season it was 12/10 and the season before it was 6/9.

So still, Even in what we'd consider severely disappointing or struggling for him, he's putting up the equivalent of what two of our backup bigs are offering. In other words, it takes two combined frontcourt players to put up close to Ayton's average ( against the Thunder) even in a down season when struggling. By the way, In the games Ayton played vs the ones that Landale and Biyombo played, How many of the games you're mentioning against OKC have we lost, how many ( with Ayton playing) have we gotten outrebounded or beaten significantly ( by double digits) in the paint?? Also, considering that the Thunder don't have anything resembling a starting frontcourt with legitimate bigs! And they still got fairly dominated?

Biyombo and Landale are fine players FOR THE BENCH. But they're not nearly capable of providing the same production/ impact that Ayton can on the game as starters and against starting level frontcourts. Especially not in terms of efficiency, and defensive versatility and more so not against legitimate elite level starting bigs like the ones that I've mentioned we'll face in our upcoming games and in the playoffs. But if they somehow outperform their already established value/ role, then I'll be the first to admit ( wholeheartedly) that I misjudged them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform against the elite bigs they'll be facing in these upcoming games.

OKC has no above average bigs to cause real problems for our front court but the discussion here isn't about how much better DA is compared to two bench players on the vet min but rather how close they are to DA's production. As many have said before, there's no question or argument that a max level DA should be better than two min level guys and when we're talking about DA at his best, he's absolutely an elite player. But time and time again (more often than I would like), we have these discussions about DA playing down to the level of these two vet min guys this season, last season with McGee/Biz, the season before with Saric/Frank and the season before that with Baynes/Frank/Saric. It literally happens every year.

Doing some quick mafs, the Suns are 29-8 over the past 3 seasons when DA doesn't play. That's a 78% win rate. Comparatively, we're 124-64 when he does play which equates to a 66% win rate. If we take this season out because of injuries to important players to this team, it's a 74% win rate when he plays and 76% when he doesn't. This doesn't paint the whole picture because it doesn't tell us about our biggest wins where we needed the best DA like in the 2021 playoffs where we got all the way to the Finals. It's also not suggesting we're necessarily a better team without DA because (credit to him), it's a relatively small sample size compared to a regular season + playoffs but it's that we've somehow, fairly consistently, found ways to make do without a max level player in the line up which is telling. For reference, in the same 3 season time frame (including this season), the Suns are 22-24 (48% win rate) when Book doesn't play and 131-47 (74%) when he does which tells me we're categorically a worse team when Book doesn't play.

So to be clear, I'm not arguing we're a better team without DA and I certainly don't want to make do with Biz/Landale as our C rotation moving forward either. This exercise of counting wins isn't all that scientific either but my only point is that our W/L's doesn't seem to be as impacted by when DA plays or not as it does for someone like Book or some other true max level players.

I don't think those stats mean too much since we still had Bridges, Cam and until this season a healthy CP3 to pick up the slack but if we're relying on Booker and an aging CP3 and scrubs then you're going to need DA more for wins.

[SkyBill40]

Given the outcome of this game and the comments I skimmed, it would seem as though I didn't miss anything other than the usual: Suns are missing Bridges and Johnson something severe and can't win a game when it's most critical. We keep this up and we'll be lucky to make the play-in.

[lilfishi22]

So still, Even in what we'd consider severely disappointing or struggling for him, he's putting up the equivalent of what two of our backup bigs are offering. In other words, it takes two combined frontcourt players to put up close to Ayton's average ( against the Thunder) even in a down season when struggling. By the way, In the games Ayton played vs the ones that Landale and Biyombo played, How many of the games you're mentioning against OKC have we lost, how many ( with Ayton playing) have we gotten outrebounded or beaten significantly ( by double digits) in the paint?? Also, considering that the Thunder don't have anything resembling a starting frontcourt with legitimate bigs! And they still got fairly dominated?

Biyombo and Landale are fine players FOR THE BENCH. But they're not nearly capable of providing the same production/ impact that Ayton can on the game as starters and against starting level frontcourts. Especially not in terms of efficiency, and defensive versatility and more so not against legitimate elite level starting bigs like the ones that I've mentioned we'll face in our upcoming games and in the playoffs. But if they somehow outperform their already established value/ role, then I'll be the first to admit ( wholeheartedly) that I misjudged them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform against the elite bigs they'll be facing in these upcoming games.

OKC has no above average bigs to cause real problems for our front court but the discussion here isn't about how much better DA is compared to two bench players on the vet min but rather how close they are to DA's production. As many have said before, there's no question or argument that a max level DA should be better than two min level guys and when we're talking about DA at his best, he's absolutely an elite player. But time and time again (more often than I would like), we have these discussions about DA playing down to the level of these two vet min guys this season, last season with McGee/Biz, the season before with Saric/Frank and the season before that with Baynes/Frank/Saric. It literally happens every year.

Doing some quick mafs, the Suns are 29-8 over the past 3 seasons when DA doesn't play. That's a 78% win rate. Comparatively, we're 124-64 when he does play which equates to a 66% win rate. If we take this season out because of injuries to important players to this team, it's a 74% win rate when he plays and 76% when he doesn't. This doesn't paint the whole picture because it doesn't tell us about our biggest wins where we needed the best DA like in the 2021 playoffs where we got all the way to the Finals. It's also not suggesting we're necessarily a better team without DA because (credit to him), it's a relatively small sample size compared to a regular season + playoffs but it's that we've somehow, fairly consistently, found ways to make do without a max level player in the line up which is telling. For reference, in the same 3 season time frame (including this season), the Suns are 22-24 (48% win rate) when Book doesn't play and 131-47 (74%) when he does which tells me we're categorically a worse team when Book doesn't play.

So to be clear, I'm not arguing we're a better team without DA and I certainly don't want to make do with Biz/Landale as our C rotation moving forward either. This exercise of counting wins isn't all that scientific either but my only point is that our W/L's doesn't seem to be as impacted by when DA plays or not as it does for someone like Book or some other true max level players.

I don't think those stats mean too much since we still had Bridges, Cam and until this season a healthy CP3 to pick up the slack but if we're relying on Booker and an aging CP3 and scrubs then you're going to need DA more for wins.

I didn't say we don't need DA. It's obviously better to have a 7ft starting level C than not and I would of course want DA to be available as we head into the playoffs. I had already pointed out, we don't get the Finals without DA so clearly we need a full team to go far.

What I'm trying to point out is that we really shouldn't be able to make do without a starting level player on a max contract.... yet we somehow have been able to...and with career journeymen and/or min level players.

[SkyBill40]

I didn't say we don't need DA. It's obviously better to have a 7ft starting level C than not and I would of course want DA to be available as we head into the playoffs. I had already pointed out, we don't get the Finals without DA so clearly we need a full team to go far.

What I'm trying to point out is that we really shouldn't be able to make do without a starting level player on a max contract.... yet we somehow have been able to...and with career journeymen and/or min level players.

For what it's worth, it's not likely we'll get there WITH him either... so yeah. We need to see what we can get for him in the offseason as he's not the dude for us and really hasn't been since he was drafted but especially not after signing that new deal.

[SunsRback4Good]

Didn't watch this one as I was in a deep slumber. Should I give it a miss?

You had a slumber party?

[Jdiddy701]

Just turned on the Lakers game and see that Austin Reaves has double the freethrow attempts than Devin Booker tonight. Nice.


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[bwgood77]

We have lost 4 close games to good-great teams, all 4 of those teams highly motivated to win, all of which can beat any team on any night, including the Thunder at home.

One of our problems last year was how much we relied on Paul, and with him mostly washed, I don’t see how a slightly better Bridges / Cam would make the difference. They haven’t been guys we can go to for buckets late in games, which is what we have needed in these losses. KD is that guy and more, much more. And he makes the game so much easier for everyone.

Bridges slightly better? When he is hasn't been pigeon holed into a role player in Brooklyn, despite being the #1 option attracting the best defender every night he is averaging over 26ppg on 63.7 TS%.

The only two other guys doing that in the league are Embiid and Lillard. Plus he has elite defense, plays ever game, etc, etc.

Watching this game was reminiscient to me of the old Booker days with a bunch of crap role players and Book trying to do it all. Paul is still a big name but he's declining pretty quickly.

Yes, we do need KD...and we really need him in most every game. Since he replaced 3 of our top 6 players from last year, we just can't afford to miss him much.

Well the Nets are interesting because they have a lot of good, but not great players. But they seem to have the same issue, they can hang around in most games but can’t close. Do you think Bridges is a guy we could rely on to create offense late in games?

I do, but I know most everyone here doesn't. Obviously he's no KD. No one is. The guy has been the #1 option. I already mentioned his TS%, but he is getting to the line a ton, hitting 90% from the line, 44% from 3, etc. He has been really clutch...not just as some role player but as the main guy.

People may point that they lose to a team like Denver, but they also beat Denver...and Denver's actually pretty good. They also lost recently to the Bucks, Thunder and Kings, but so did we.

[Qwigglez]

Just turned on the Lakers game and see that Austin Reaves has double the freethrow attempts than Devin Booker tonight. Nice.


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Austin Reaves is twice the player that Booker is.

I would consider trading Booker for Reaves, but Suns don't have any more picks to make it enticing enough for the Lakers.

Seriously though, the only thing that makes me feel better about the Suns low FTA's per game is that the Nuggets are 23rd, Celtics are 25th in the league and Warriors are last in FTA's per game. Suns are 3rd to last (Warriors, Spurs, Suns).

[Bogyo]

Soooo... has anyone else noticed how CP's performance is slipping lately as he was on a steeeep hill with greased skates? I mean the dude just can't get there in time, and can't make his 3s (and some of his usual shots from 2)... too lazy to look it up, but I'd bet he is really subpar in the last 10 games or so. And I haven't even gotten to his defense
Maybe his assist numbers are still ok, but the rest is not there - and it will only get worse.
I just hope he is off the team by next season, and we won't be lied in our face by the front office how great CP still is, hall of famer, bla-bla-bla...

[Frank Lee]

No doubt he’s seen better days. Cant trade him, going to have to pay him. That was an F-d up contract Jones handed out. What was the upside?

Won’t be surprised when Junkyard gets condemned, Monty too. There is no reason to think their jobs are secure.

[Saberestar]

It was a close one but we couldn't get the win.

It was a somewhat expected loss playing on the road without KD and Ayton.

Not a big deal because we are 4th.

[sunsbg]

Injury riddled season from start to finish. At this point can only hope making the playoffs as healthy as possible. 7th seed is probably better than 4th anyway.

[Maze]

Just turned on the Lakers game and see that Austin Reaves has double the freethrow attempts than Devin Booker tonight. Nice.


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No way the league allows the Lakers to miss the playoffs.I made a post earlier about how the Lakers have been killing teams from the FT line ever since that no call against LeBron in Boston.Austin Reaves is averaging nearly 11 FTA's a game since Bron injured his ankle.Even tho he's only taking 11 FGA's per game during that time.I think it's the "Laker" effect.If he played for the Hornets, or even the Suns, he'd be lucky to get a single FT.Anthony Davis is another guy who historically shoots a gazillion FT's against the Suns.I'm not exactly looking forward to the Lakers game lol.

[garrick]

Just turned on the Lakers game and see that Austin Reaves has double the freethrow attempts than Devin Booker tonight. Nice.


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No way the league allows the Lakers to miss the playoffs.I made a post earlier about how the Lakers have been killing teams from the FT line ever since that no call against LeBron in Boston.Austin Reaves is averaging nearly 11 FTA's a game since Bron injured his ankle.Even tho he's only taking 11 FGA's per game during that time.I think it's the "Laker" effect.If he played for the Hornets, or even the Suns, he'd be lucky to get a single FT.Anthony Davis is another guy who historically shoots a gazillion FT's against the Suns.I'm not exactly looking forward to the Lakers game lol.

Going into the offseason the entire Suns roster needs to go to James Harden and Manu Ginobili's school of flops to learn how to act like you got murdered on a shot and earn more free throws.

I hate that in order to win you really need to either be liked by the refs or be able to really sell your fouls. I thought Silver was going to cut down on the amount of the foul baiting but looks like the refs have in turn just continued to be super quick with the whistle on very minimal contact that doesn't affect the shot at all.

I don't think we need to go back to 90's style grind it out defenses being allowed but unless slight contact actually affects the shot the refs should allow the players to play on.

[kennydorglas]

Just turned on the Lakers game and see that Austin Reaves has double the freethrow attempts than Devin Booker tonight. Nice.


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Austin Reaves is twice the player that Booker is.

I would consider trading Booker for Reaves, but Suns don't have any more picks to make it enticing enough for the Lakers.

Seriously though, the only thing that makes me feel better about the Suns low FTA's per game is that the Nuggets are 23rd, Celtics are 25th in the league and Warriors are last in FTA's per game. Suns are 3rd to last (Warriors, Spurs, Suns).

Warriors last in FTA but against us they looked like prime Houston moreyball days lol