Most Overrated Player in the Top 10

[Bornstellar]

LOL when did Duncan make the top 10????? only on this board smh

Only on this board?

Spoiler:

https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/
https://www.complex.com/sports/best-nba-players-of-all-time-ranked
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1795233-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time
https://hoopshype.com/lists/75-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-hoopshype-list/
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/top-15-players-in-nba-history-cbs-sports-ranks-the-greatest-of-all-time-from-west-and-steph-to-lebron-and-mj/

I notice the poster you're responding too conveniently ignored your post

[fteru6uhre54ew]

If overrated means a couple of spots down the list…

I think that Magic and Bird should be in the top 10, but they sometimes feel “overrated”, because they were the best in an era. I think that they can potentially fall off the top 10 rather soon and some people seem to see them as untouchables. Both of them have poor longevity and both of them didn’t peak higher than a guy like Curry in my opinion. They probably didn’t peak higher than Durant. And not higher than Giannis or Jokic (at least RS) Is their peak form for sure top 10 peak of all time? Because the longevity is certainly not top 10.

People have a tendency to give Magic a top 5 spot by default and have Bird soon after and it sometimes feel like it’s also about their aura, their rivalry and what they did for the sport.

Overrated?. Well they had amazing teams with multiple HOFs much better than any team in those years. But man if this league it is for what it is today those two have a lot of fault they boosted the league and make them what it is today. They were pretty special both.

[ShootersShoot]

LOL when did Duncan make the top 10????? only on this board smh

Who's taking Duncan's place on the OP's list?

no one remembers duncan or the spurs titles. they won them all on down years: 99, 03, 05 etc.

they are like the bucks or mavericks of the mid 80s. no one remembers except this board

What an utterly dumb take

[MavsDirk41]

I would've said Jordan but he's not a top 10 player ever.

I wanna say Bird because I don't like how he has this Damian Lillard-like reputation as an infallible playoff clutch god who definitely never averaged 20 on awful efficiency against the '88 Pistons...

But I don't think he's usually overrated on all-time lists.

I cant take anything you post on here seriously man. Why are you so salty towards Jordan? Its almost comical lol

[Sedale Threatt]

give each of these players you have listed in the top 10...Larry Bird's body and athleticism and see how they are. Almost every single one of those players except Magic and Bird, hit the genetic lottery and most of their dominance was predicated on them having a physical and athletic advantage. So essentially most of the centers and Lebron are way overrated and guys like Kobe, West, Havlicek, Oscar and Baylor are underrated because they relied on skill mostly.

Bird was almost 6'10 with
7'3 wingspan. Deceptively athletic just not as quick. But his reaction time was elite. He would operate steps ahead as they play was developing. He had a death touch that you don't just learn. You're born with that. Yes he won the genepool lottery. Only stereotyping morons perceive otherwise.

I'd say Russell. Won a bunch of rings but as an individual player he was not that blessed.

Is Bird's wingspan actually confirmed? If so that's pretty wild.

[Perishable517]

why do this? these guys are all freaking awesome.

Right?

Sent from my CPH2417 using RealGM mobile app

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Jordan. Its not good enough that hes one of the top three players ever, and probably the goat for some people and instead they treat him as some mythical figure who only played six years, won six title, was on the best team ever but also had no help and excuse all of his actions as a teammate. It reminds me of the kids from sandlot talking about babe ruth.

It's kind of funny because not only i Jordan glorified, but his coach is considered the clear greatest of all time and like almost a mythical cult leader, Scottie Pippen is considered an incredible second superstar, Rodman the ultimate role player, Horace Grant's a bit underrated, their role players are considered very solid, but Jordan gets a tonne of the credit for the championships nonetheless, even though he's not hard carrying a weak team or anything. It's the level of dominance for those 6 years which clinches things, and people had him as the GOAT before then despite lack of playoff success.

[70sFan]

Worst playoff performer of the 10 by a mile.

Based on what exactly?

He's held at diety status for what he did early in his career - 50ppg, all the scoring records, but that was actually him at his worst. Ben Taylor on thinking basketball discusses why those seasons are wildly overrated, he doesnt think they are top-100 offensive seasons in NBA history because he sabotaged the teams offense at expense of his personal stat collections. The biggest blackhole in NBA history. 20+ FGA per assist. The teams offenses stunk because the strategy was 'pass to wilt, have him shoot or turn it over, nobody else do anything'.

Are you aware that 1962 Warriors offense was actually good?
Are you aware that the same Ben Taylor said in more recent podcast that he became higher on early Wilt offense because of his off-ball play?
Are you aware that the same Ben Taylor has Wilt firmly inside top 10, last time ranked at number 8?

If Wilt actually played the passer/defender/high efficiency scorer role he was amazing at later in his career, early on, he might have won 7-8 championships and be the GOAT. Instead his selfish play got in his own way.

No, he wouldn't because Warriors teams were not talented enough to play that way. Look at 1963/64 Warriors roster and tell me Wilt shouldn't have scored much...

To the people who think 50 points per game is proof of his all time greatness let me ask you this. If 2019 James Harden decided to stop passing, and took 40 shots per game instead of 25, and his assists dropped from 8 to 2, do you think he would have been a better player or a worse player?

Yeah, but people who think Wilt is great because of 50 ppg shouldn't even have this conversation...

You forgot to mention that Wilt is one of the greatest defenders ever, possibly the greatest rebounder ever while still being an amazing offensive player, even if overrated by counting stats. In your rant about playoffs, you forgot to mention that Wilt is arguably the best ever at raising his team's defensive production from RS to the playoffs.

I get that you don't like lazy takes about Wilt, but then don't add up to that your one.

[76Shots]

LeBron. Heavy media narrative combined with youth who didn’t grow up in previous eras trying to push the GOAT case when it isn’t all that legitimate. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He’s certainly not at worst #2 all time as you can reasonably argue him lower.

Not to mention he’s never had a GOAT total season (regular season + playoffs), never won a DPOY, barely has any scoring titles, had a fairly weak midrange game that was exploited for most of his prime and performed poorly in multiple Finals despite playing with insane amounts of talent constantly trying to stack the deck to win.

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

[GSWFan1994]

It's hard, for me, to understand why Bill Russell is being voted the most overrated player in the top 10 here in this thread... I've always thought he was the most underrated player in this same perspective.

[old skool]

I can't wrap my head around the idea of someone in the top 10 all-time being over rated. Seems like any negativity should be directed at raters and not at the player. These guys are all great players, terrific competitors, wonderful examples that any team would love to have on their roster.

[Gary Cokeman]

Who would win if the poll was for most underrated?

[70sFan]

It's hard, for me, to understand why Bill Russell is being voted the most overrated player in the top 10 here in this thread... I've always thought he was the most underrated player in this same perspective.

I agree, most people think Russell is overrated because he's consistently being ranked inside top 10 but his basketball-reference page (read: scoring numbers) doesn't impress them.

[nomansland]

Not gonna vote but I always wonder how good Russell would have been in the modern NBA. The league was much, much smaller in his heyday (we're talking about 8 teams for a lot of years and 14 at the end of his career) and he was essentially a prototypical defensive big. Not to say he wouldn't have been capable of shooting from distance and I mean no disrespect to his accomplishments, but when I look at the rest of the list, his name is the one that makes me wonder.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron. Heavy media narrative combined with youth who didn’t grow up in previous eras trying to push the GOAT case when it isn’t all that legitimate. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He’s certainly not at worst #2 all time as you can reasonably argue him lower.

Not to mention he’s never had a GOAT total season (regular season + playoffs), never won a DPOY, barely has any scoring titles, had a fairly weak midrange game that was exploited for most of his prime and performed poorly in multiple Finals despite playing with insane amounts of talent constantly trying to stack the deck to win.

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Its called longevity

[KyRo23]

LeBron. Heavy media narrative combined with youth who didn’t grow up in previous eras trying to push the GOAT case when it isn’t all that legitimate. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He’s certainly not at worst #2 all time as you can reasonably argue him lower.

Not to mention he’s never had a GOAT total season (regular season + playoffs), never won a DPOY, barely has any scoring titles, had a fairly weak midrange game that was exploited for most of his prime and performed poorly in multiple Finals despite playing with insane amounts of talent constantly trying to stack the deck to win.

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Its called longevity

There's a reason LeBron passed Jordan in scoring on less shots... BUT THE LONGEVITY

Go look at Jordans FGA per game when he was winning scoring titles. Jordan averaged 23 shots per game in his career. LeBron has shot 23+ times a game ONE single time in his career. I'm not taking away anything from Jordan as a scorer. One of the greatest scorers of all time, but you give the greatest scorers of all time the most FGA per game and they're going to win scoring titles

[Wigginstime]

Larry Bird is an interesting case. Do you evaluate Bird based on how he played in his era or try to compare him to modern day players.

Larry Bird was the leagues first great shooter. At 6'9" with a 7' wing span his shot was almost unblockable. His rookie year was the year the NBA added the 3pt line. Larry Birds 50/40/90 stat line he produced consistently would become the gold standard for shooting efficiency that few players would meet for the next 30+ years. During the Era that Bird player there was nothing comparable to how efficiently that man scored points.

The problem with Bird is trying to compare him to modern players in a league that has become increasing 3pt focused. Birds shooting was god like in the 80's, but, there are several players who do it significantly better than Bird in the modern era.

There are several modern day guards who are significantly more efficient scorers (i.e. Curry or Lillard). Even if you want a player of size, Dirk, Durant, and Kawhi are all more efficient scorers that Bird.

So how do you compare Bird to modern day scorers. Bird was an elite 3pt shooter when he grew up without a 3pt line and played in a league that didn't care about 3pt shooting. You could make the argument that if he grew up in the modern era maybe he would be the greatest scorer on the planet, but that's a big IF. The fact is there are dozen of modern players who score more efficiently that Bird did in the 80s.

[BliscoSantos]

You put Jordan on Lebron's Heat and they win not one,not two,not three,not four,not five

[OhayoKD]

Heyo, it's Oha-yo

LeBron. Heavy media narrative combined with youth who didn’t grow up in previous eras trying to push the GOAT case when it isn’t all that legitimate. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He’s certainly not at worst #2 all time as you can reasonably argue him lower.

Not to mention he’s never had a GOAT total season (regular season + playoffs), never won a DPOY, barely has any scoring titles, had a fairly weak midrange game that was exploited for most of his prime and performed poorly in multiple Finals despite playing with insane amounts of talent constantly trying to stack the deck to win.

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Good points. But also... Lebron's better at basketball:

Micheal got the points per game and leveraged his gravity(and illegal d) to create a bunch. But Pippen ochrestrated the offense, and the defense, and brought the ball up, and created as much as Jordan while physically anchoring the Bulls' defense. And then we get to rodman(turning them into an unrivalled offensive rebounding outlier and offering solid paint-protection), and Grant(maybe the only reason people think Shaq was ever an elite playoff defender). Never mind the depth, and the coaching.

Before that, Jordan was taking more talent than what Lebron had in his first cleveland stint, and winning less. Why? Because all that **** Pippen does? Lebron does it too. And he also has the PPG. And when you add PPG to Scottie Pippen, you get: better at basektball.

As for pushing square pegs in round holes...

Rim:

It’s doubtful Pippen would’ve consistently led that Bulls team anywhere outside of the 94 season and there’s evidence of that in the 95 season when the Bulls were a sub .500 team.

Reality:

The bulls were >.500 before MJ's return and posted a 53-win srs. This happened with Grant leaving, and with Pippen actively pushing management for a trade.

Rim:

Jordan never had a superteam… certainly not to the extent that LeBron did by having multiple #1 scoring options all on the same team.

Reality:

By the 1990 playoffs the triangle(which involved Jordan splitting creation with a more talented passer and becoming a secondary ball-handler) had spiked the average offense Jordan was leading on his own(Lebron was leading better offenses at 21) to the same offensive-rating they would have for 1991.

By the 1990 playoffs, Pippen was putting up the same numbers he would put for basically the entirety of his prime, including when he led a 55-win team(58 at full-strength) that elevated in the postseason. They weren't the best defense in the league yet(and Jordan wasn't getting any better there), but in the post-season they had two superstars, were elevated massively by an all-time coach(triangle), and lost to discount Westbrook, Rodman, and some well-fitting role players.

Rim:

Are you seriously bringing up Horace Grant to support the argument about who played with more stacked teams??? Yea, he sure “elevated” the Magic, not the iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny.

Reality:

The iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny… who got swept in the first round by Reggie Miller?

Horace Grant was an outstanding tertiary player in that era, yes. He also happened to be the starting power forward for the 15-1 2001 Lakers, coinciding with pretty much the one time a Shaq team managed to do well defensively in the postseason. Not much in the way of ppg, true… but valuable everywhere else.

Rim:

LeBron played poorly in the 2014 Finals yes, more poorly than Jordan did in any of his Finals. Not sure what bringing up random early round series is trying to accomplish, but we’re talking about Finals. His mid range game and outside jumper were very weak and the Spurs exposed that the entire series. The numbers themselves don’t look bad due to stat padding but it wasn’t a good series.

Reality:

Game 3: LeBron scores 4 of his 22 points in the fourth quarter of this game. In the first basket, it was near the beginning of the quarter when the Spurs only held an 11 point lead after LeBron's made basket. That's not stat padding. His second one came in the middle of the quarter when, by that point, the Spurs had a 15 point lead. 6 minutes to go and a 15 point lead. You're going to have to make a VERY strong argument for how this is stat padding, especially since LeBron himself was on the receiving end of a blown 15 point lead in an NBA Finals just four years ago against Dallas. He knows better than anyone that a 15 point lead with 6 minutes still left isn't safe. And... that's it. That's all LeBron scored in that quarter. So for this game, you have no stat padding moments and no end of game scoring. You're 0-1 so far here.

Game 4: LeBron scored 0 points in the fourth quarter of this game. 0. No stat padding to be found here and, clearly, no end of game scoring. You're 0-2.

Game 5: LeBron's first fourth quarter basket makes it a 14 point lead for San Antonio with a little less than 10 minutes left in the quarter. This is not stat padding, a 14 point lead can be overcome with that much time left. James next basket comes at the 7:31 mark of the game, making the score 88-72 in San Antonio's favor. Again, most certainly not stat padding. There is still plenty of time for Miami to make a comeback. After this, LeBron would shortly sit after San Antonio went on another run and would not play for the rest of the game. 0-3, no such stat padding like you described.

Getting back to things that actually happened

Lebron has
• Beat 2 teams better than anyone Jordan vanquished with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Beat a 73-win team with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Led multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept a healthier variant of the 1989 Cavs with less help than Jordan has ever played with

Lebron also
• Dominates Jordan in winning-based data/impact analysis
• Matches Jordan in box-aggregates(leads in playoffs, trails in regular season) despite a systematic defensive bias towards steal-accumulators
• Has a MVP win(2013) more dominant than any of Mike's(1 vote away from unanimous)
• Has 3 of the 4 most dominant MVP wins between the two(2013, 1996, 2009, 2010)
• Has 3 MVP wins more dominant than anything pre-expansion MJ managed
• Won all 4 MVP's in a 5-year span(Jordan won 3 in 6 before winning 2 more against 30+ comp post-prime)
• Has the most MVP votes of anyone ever
• Has more all-nba and 1st team all-nba appearances than anyone else
• Has led all-nba voting more times than anyone else

AND ALSO
• Is better at basketball

Hope that helps

PS: The answer to the thread title is obviously Mikey

[MavsDirk41]

Heyo, it's Oha-yo

LeBron. Heavy media narrative combined with youth who didn’t grow up in previous eras trying to push the GOAT case when it isn’t all that legitimate. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He’s certainly not at worst #2 all time as you can reasonably argue him lower.

Not to mention he’s never had a GOAT total season (regular season + playoffs), never won a DPOY, barely has any scoring titles, had a fairly weak midrange game that was exploited for most of his prime and performed poorly in multiple Finals despite playing with insane amounts of talent constantly trying to stack the deck to win.

The fact that he has "barely and scoring titles", yet is the leagues all time leading scorer speaks volumes. LeBron also has the most total points for the regular season and playoffs. So yeah, there's that.

Good points. But also... Lebron's better at basketball:

Micheal got the points per game and leveraged his gravity(and illegal d) to create a bunch. But Pippen ochrestrated the offense, and the defense, and brought the ball up, and created as much as Jordan while physically anchoring the Bulls' defense. And then we get to rodman(turning them into an unrivalled offensive rebounding outlier and offering solid paint-protection), and Grant(maybe the only reason people think Shaq was ever an elite playoff defender). Never mind the depth, and the coaching.

Before that, Jordan was taking more talent than what Lebron had in his first cleveland stint, and winning less. Why? Because all that **** Pippen does? Lebron does it too. And he also has the PPG. And when you add PPG to Scottie Pippen, you get: better at basektball.

As for pushing square pegs in round holes...

Rim:

It’s doubtful Pippen would’ve consistently led that Bulls team anywhere outside of the 94 season and there’s evidence of that in the 95 season when the Bulls were a sub .500 team.

Reality:

The bulls were >.500 before MJ's return and posted a 53-win srs. This happened with Grant leaving, and with Pippen actively pushing management for a trade.

Rim:

Jordan never had a superteam… certainly not to the extent that LeBron did by having multiple #1 scoring options all on the same team.

Reality:

By the 1990 playoffs the triangle(which involved Jordan splitting creation with a more talented passer and becoming a secondary ball-handler) had spiked the average offense Jordan was leading on his own(Lebron was leading better offenses at 21) to the same offensive-rating they would have for 1991.

By the 1990 playoffs, Pippen was putting up the same numbers he would put for basically the entirety of his prime, including when he led a 55-win team(58 at full-strength) that elevated in the postseason. They weren't the best defense in the league yet(and Jordan wasn't getting any better there), but in the post-season they had two superstars, were elevated massively by an all-time coach(triangle), and lost to discount Westbrook, Rodman, and some well-fitting role players.

Rim:

Are you seriously bringing up Horace Grant to support the argument about who played with more stacked teams??? Yea, he sure “elevated” the Magic, not the iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny.

Reality:

The iconic superstar duo of Shaq/Penny… who got swept in the first round by Reggie Miller?

Horace Grant was an outstanding tertiary player in that era, yes. He also happened to be the starting power forward for the 15-1 2001 Lakers, coinciding with pretty much the one time a Shaq team managed to do well defensively in the postseason. Not much in the way of ppg, true… but valuable everywhere else.

Rim:

LeBron played poorly in the 2014 Finals yes, more poorly than Jordan did in any of his Finals. Not sure what bringing up random early round series is trying to accomplish, but we’re talking about Finals. His mid range game and outside jumper were very weak and the Spurs exposed that the entire series. The numbers themselves don’t look bad due to stat padding but it wasn’t a good series.

Reality:

Game 3: LeBron scores 4 of his 22 points in the fourth quarter of this game. In the first basket, it was near the beginning of the quarter when the Spurs only held an 11 point lead after LeBron's made basket. That's not stat padding. His second one came in the middle of the quarter when, by that point, the Spurs had a 15 point lead. 6 minutes to go and a 15 point lead. You're going to have to make a VERY strong argument for how this is stat padding, especially since LeBron himself was on the receiving end of a blown 15 point lead in an NBA Finals just four years ago against Dallas. He knows better than anyone that a 15 point lead with 6 minutes still left isn't safe. And... that's it. That's all LeBron scored in that quarter. So for this game, you have no stat padding moments and no end of game scoring. You're 0-1 so far here.

Game 4: LeBron scored 0 points in the fourth quarter of this game. 0. No stat padding to be found here and, clearly, no end of game scoring. You're 0-2.

Game 5: LeBron's first fourth quarter basket makes it a 14 point lead for San Antonio with a little less than 10 minutes left in the quarter. This is not stat padding, a 14 point lead can be overcome with that much time left. James next basket comes at the 7:31 mark of the game, making the score 88-72 in San Antonio's favor. Again, most certainly not stat padding. There is still plenty of time for Miami to make a comeback. After this, LeBron would shortly sit after San Antonio went on another run and would not play for the rest of the game. 0-3, no such stat padding like you described.

Getting back to things that actually happened

Lebron has
• Beat 2 teams better than anyone Jordan vanquished with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Beat a 73-win team with less help than Jordan had between 1990 and 1998
• Led multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept multiple 60-win teams with less help than Jordan has ever played with
• Swept a healthier variant of the 1989 Cavs with less help than Jordan has ever played with

Lebron also
• Dominates Jordan in winning-based data/impact analysis
• Matches Jordan in box-aggregates(leads in playoffs, trails in regular season) despite a systematic defensive bias towards steal-accumulators
• Has a MVP win(2013) more dominant than any of Mike's(1 vote away from unanimous)
• Has 3 of the 4 most dominant MVP wins between the two(2013, 1996, 2009, 2010)
• Has 3 MVP wins more dominant than anything pre-expansion MJ managed
• Won all 4 MVP's in a 5-year span(Jordan won 3 in 6 before winning 2 more against 30+ comp post-prime)
• Has the most MVP votes of anyone ever
• Has more all-nba and 1st team all-nba appearances than anyone else
• Has led all-nba voting more times than anyone else

AND ALSO
• Is better at basketball

Hope that helps

PS: The answer to the thread title is obviously Mikey

You have already posted all of this stuff on here before. I can post a bunch of stuff on here that would support Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem….i can also post a bunch of stuff on here that is negative for James too. Didnt lebron james promise us 7 championships??? Is this coming soon?? Like, in the next decade? Any updates on this…