Dutchball97 wrote:OhayoKD wrote:dygaction wrote:Whether it's iyo or in the PC board's "o", that ranking is still based on how those players performed(or what they accomplished) relative to era. If the league was less talented than it is now(per you in your comment on the "luka in 90's thread"), all those players are going to look better/rank higher. It is a circular argument(the conclusion attempts to justify itself)
The "# of players ranked in the top 25" is not actually a commentary on "era-strength", and since you said a "lack of talent" was a "big part" of there not being a Luka equivalent, it logically follows any dominance during the 90's should be diminished much in the same way you are saying we should diminish dominance in the 70's.
The main thing for me that needs to be addressed with Kareem is the 73-76 period. I know your stance about not thinking anything about chronological curves but I do think it's relevant. If we're praising Kareem for how good he was in his mid-30s, why can't we be a little more critical of him in his mid-20s?
I've never rooted my praise or criticism in age. Kareem's strength is that he seemingly
replicated Peak MJ-level or MJ+ liftmultiple times(recall I ignored Oakley to get MJ to 23 wins in 1988), suggesting a higher era-relative baseline. Pair that with a run in 1977 that is probably more "flawless" from a granular perspective than basically any other(including all of Jordan's), scoring that holds up the best against elite defenses of anyone in history, proof of concept in a variety of contexts(top-level floor raiser, most value on a goat-level team probably), you get a peak/prime portfolio that is only really rivalled by Bill and Lebron(the former lacking corroborating evidence, and the latter never having led a wire to wire goat-level team) .
If there are down years, then we can look at the down years, but "when" the down years happened shouldn't really matter in an era-relative comparison. That said, 73-76 includes an all-time per-game carry-job in 75, the Bucks coming within a game of a title despite Kareem's co-stars falling off(Kareem went ballistic all playoffs), and a solid floor-raising job in 76 with a new team and 20ish win help(With Kareem reportedly discontent and not playing to his full potential). Then in 77, the Bucks played like a
55-win team before losing to the eventual champions in what was an all-time performance from Jabbar.
I can literally assume the Lakers
didn't get any worse when they traded for Jabbar, and it would still be a better showing of lift than anything MJ has(even with me ignoring Oakley to prop Mike up). Jordan had more help in 1990 than Kareem did in any of these seasons(Triangle takes team from +1 to 1991-level offense, Pippen jumps in the postseason and puts up the same stuff he put from 91-98) and he still lost(doing worse than Kareem managed to in 74). Your
current #1 didn't match these down-years you're criticizing from a winning-based perspective(at his apex), and I don't think granular analysis does anything to bridge the gap:
70sFan wrote:9 good contests inside
4 good rotations inside
3 bad rotations inside
2 good P&R coverages
1 good defensive play on perimeter
3 bad defensive plays on perimeter
2 transition stops
3 weak transition defense plays
Along with:
30 points on 62.6 TS%, 4 turnovers, 2 assists and insane inside gravity on offensive end
He also limited Walton to horrible shooting night - 8/22 from the field.
Dygaction alleged that was his
worst game. Here was the other "bad game" candidate:
TBH, Kareem in 77 may be the most consistent GOAT-level performance ever, he basically was a rock for 11 games and 2 series. His worst game by far scoring wise he had 20 rebounds, 7 assists, and 8 blocks lmao. If that's an off-night you're having a hell of a run. His other "off" night game 1 against the Blazers (coming off one of the greatest carry jobs ever where he was clearly fatigued), he had a very mediocre 30 points, 10 boards, and 5 assists on 11-18 shooting. Like yea, definitely feels nitpicky to me.
Kareem didn't have solid guards to bring-the-ball up, didn't have impressive bigs, and didn't have a co-star. He had the remnants of a bad team and still arguably the most consistent postseason ever elevating significantly from an outlier-RS(at least from a "isolate for winning" vantage). In a "off-year" he's anchoring a 63-win pace team with both of his stars pulling a 2014 Miami(and nearly carries them to a title). What are we criticizing here in terms of performance? What does the "lack of postseason success" actually show us here?
but what does bother me is the perception of him compared to his peers when looking at MVP voting. In 1973 he ended up behind Cowens and just ahead of Tiny Archibald with 36yo Wilt also being in the mix. In 1974 Kareem won the award but it was a very close race with McAdoo and Lanier. In 1975 Kareem finished 5th behind McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes and Barry. Then in 1976 Kareem won again but this it was an even closer race than 1974 as he just inched out McAdoo and Cowens with Barry also getting some serious traction.
None of those guys are really considered among the best peaks and it doesn't look like Kareem was head and shoulders above the field either in those years. Either we've been underestimating guys like McAdoo and Cowens massively or maybe Kareem simply isn't as impressive in the mid-70s as he is before and after those years.
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Or there's option C where Kareem was undervalued. Based on what was happening on the court , I'd say Kareem looks incredibly dominant in the mid-70's.
There's also option D where consensus was formed less easily with less data/less extensive coverage. Per BBR, Kareem was the only player from the decade to get near 90% vote share(1971). He got 60% 4 times, the only other player to cross that threshold was Willis Reed(643% in 1970 behind 3 of Kareem's MVP's). Bill Russell never crossed 70%, Wilt topped out at 80% and crossed 60% 3 times. Then all of a sudden Bird hit 89%, 98%, and 95% as the league got more popular
As it is, equating MVP shares with "dominance" would probably get you a very different sort of list with 2016 Curry as the most dominant winner(followed by Shaq and Lebron). Then Lebron and Bird are far and away the best multi-year stretches followed by
second-three peat Jordan and Magic
