The plus minus and other stats. Bleacher Report article

[NickP]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/815181-nba-power-rankings-the-10-most-meaningless-stats-and-arguments-in-basketball

I thought I should put this here. Interesting read. And of course, there are many more such articles.
So no, Marcus Morris adds no value playing along side of Kawhi and PG.

[esqtvd]

that's not what it says exactly
the article is referring to comparing players on different teams, or from different years
however,

these stats can do a great job of telling us what units play well together

basically, in March you have KL and PG at ~+3.5 as our baseline

You have

Gordon +5.6
Senior +4.2
Zubac +4.0
Westbrook +3.8

pulling the average up

Covington -0.7
Plumlee -0.9
Batum -1.0
Mann -2.9

pulling them down?

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?Month=6&TeamID=1610612746&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

Now of course, the guys in the negative aren't necessarily hurting us, but the guys in the plus are at least not hurting us. Sometimes second-unit guys can be in the minus but are better than any of the alternatives. [Denver's second unit is a basket case right now.]

Plumlee is doing better than the G-Leaguers--Moses Brown, Diabate--that we trotted out there when Zubac was getting a blow, and no doubt better than putting Marcus out there as the "small-ball 5" too. [In fact, this would explain why Marcus' plus/minus has taken a measurable positive leap since the Plumlee trade.]

______________________________

FTR: KL and PG didn't want Mann starting because he can't play point guard--admittedly the plus/minus was damn good with Mann starting, but it was killing the other two.

"We both loved [signing Westbrook]," Paul George said. "We thought we needed a point guard. Especially, we traded Reggie, we traded John, our two point guards. So we like, man we really need a point. I'm playing point out there, and I thought I could do it, but bro, it's a lot. Especially, when you got Jrue Holiday picking you up, and you gotta create. I'm a deer, I need to be a stallion, a black stallion. [Russell] gonna do all the running."

https://www.si.com/nba/clippers/news/paul-george-reveals-reason-for-bringing-russell-westbrook-to-clippers

[madmaxmedia]

At the end of the day, Marcus Morris is unfortunately probably the best power forward on the team, and I believe the plus/minus reflects this. RoCo is great at defense, but is so limited offensively that like Morris, his strengths and weaknesses largely cancel out. Watching RoCo try to create anything on offense is like watching Morris defend. RoCo has really poor touch around the rim, and Morris is a better 3 point shooter as well. I really wish it were otherwise, and if you could combine the best of both you'd have a really good player IMO.

I think Mann is significantly better than both of those guys, and better than Westbrook or whoever else we play at point guard. But he's a wing like PG and Kawhi.

[MartinToVaught]

RoCo is great at defense, but is so limited offensively that like Morris, his strengths and weaknesses largely cancel out.

At least RoCo has strengths. Morris doesn't anymore. For all the talk of Morris creating on offense, shooting threes, etc. he has scored a total of 56 points since the All-Star break. On 59 shots, by the way. While starting and playing almost 30 minutes per game consistently. And the saddest part is? 56 points is actually more than I would have guessed.

When Morris can't do the only thing he's on the roster to do, and he can't do anything else, there's no justification for him to be playing over RoCo at all.

[LamarWho]

It will be interesting to see what kind of numbers MMSr is gonna put up in PG's absence. He's averaging less than 8 ppg since February. I have no doubt even if he continues to suck, Ty Belichick will keep playing him 30 mins a game.

[esqtvd]

At the end of the day, Marcus Morris is unfortunately probably the best power forward on the team, and I believe the plus/minus reflects this. RoCo is great at defense, but is so limited offensively that like Morris, his strengths and weaknesses largely cancel out. Watching RoCo try to create anything on offense is like watching Morris defend. RoCo has really poor touch around the rim, and Morris is a better 3 point shooter as well. I really wish it were otherwise, and if you could combine the best of both you'd have a really good player IMO.

I think Mann is significantly better than both of those guys, and better than Westbrook or whoever else we play at point guard. But he's a wing like PG and Kawhi.

Since the All-Star break, Mann [minus-1.9] is 2nd-worst to Plumlee [minus-2.1]. He's still getting 20.6 mpg. He can't play the point and at a shade under 6'5", is not interchangeable with Morris or Batum. As for Morris, at $16M, he's a gross disappointment. Getting any useful minutes out of him is a miracle, and Ty is [plus+1.5].

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star&TeamID=1610612746&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS


Would Mann do better than plus+1.5 if he played with KL, PG and Zu? Maybe. Better than his current minus-1.9? Certainly. But would he drag them down by making the first unit considerably smaller? Probably.

Would Morris do worse than his current plus+1.5 if moved to the second unit? Definitely.

Would Covington do better than either of them? Questionable, IMO doubtful. And overlooked in all this is that Batum is slumping: minus-1.0 in March. Mann is minus-2.9, worst of any regular. When you have the worst plus/minus on the team, there's nobody else to point fingers at.

[FTR, Westbrook is 2nd on the team since the All-Star break at plus+2.3. Frankly, I'm surprised as hell. He's being a good boy.]

[madmaxmedia]

Would Mann do better than plus+1.5 if he played with KL, PG and Zu? Maybe. Better than his current minus-1.9? Certainly. But would he drag them down by making the first unit considerably smaller? Probably.

But that's the thing- if he drags down the first unit by making them smaller, that's going to impact his plus/minus with that unit right?

I think Mann isn't able to play his natural position for significant minutes on this current roster, which is why his plus/minus numbers are not as high as they could otherwise be. I think if we had say a really good point guard (or a power forward) instead of Paul George, Terence would be a nice complementary starter and his plus/minus numbers would be better.

[esqtvd]

Would Mann do better than plus+1.5 if he played with KL, PG and Zu? Maybe. Better than his current minus-1.9? Certainly. But would he drag them down by making the first unit considerably smaller? Probably.

But that's the thing- if he drags down the first unit by making them smaller, that's going to impact his plus/minus with that unit right?

I think Mann isn't able to play his natural position for significant minutes on this current roster, which is why his plus/minus numbers are not as high as they could otherwise be. I think if we had say a really good point guard (or a power forward) instead of Paul George, Terence would be a nice complementary starter and his plus/minus numbers would be better.

Pretty much anybody who gets minutes with Kawhi or PG is gonna see a positive effect on his +/-. If we start him at the 2 while PG is out I'd expect him to get out of the negative numbers.

But Gordon-Westbrook is plus+1.4 and Mann-Westbrook is minus-0.8; Mann-Leonard is also one of our worst 2-man combos lately, a minus-4.6 since the All-Star break. The numbers say EJ.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/traditional?GroupQuantity=2&TeamID=1610612746&dir=D&slug=traditional&sort=PLUS_MINUS