Re: 2023 Draft Prospect discussion Part II

[Indeed]

Even with better on court play with Poeltl, I just don't see how they bring everyone back then just add a 1st rd pick + trade for better bench help. We will be a LT team if not borderline. I just don't see it happening.

I expect Masai to shake up the team in the off-season and I wouldn't at all be shocked if Siakam was moved for a mega package. Trading FVV/Trent in S and T wont net much IMO, trading OG for 3 picks is fun sure but we aren't tanking next season so dont think it makes much sense anymore. Siakam is the guy to really bring in favorable assets of picks / players IMO.

Next year really is the worst year to tank too (not that we would without a first rnd pick)the draft being supposedly worse than this one although you never know who might come from nowhere.

Depends on the One-And-Done rule?

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

He has a nice eurostep move though.

[ArthurVandelay]

We're not getting Hendricks, this team flushed the draft down the toilet the second MLSE decided they want their Playoff profits at all cost which is why we got Poeltl despite sitting in the top 6 in the draft majority of the year & the real reason why none of Fred, Gary or OG we're moved despite endless rumours, not because they weren't good offers, all reports contradict that. Instead they decided we're ok being mid as long as it profits....this team is THE definition of a MID team. Just a mediocre team that's nothing more than a "tough out" due to the effort they play with but don't have the talent to keep up when everyone's effort and coaching is at their best in the Playoffs.

We're going to need INCREDIBLE luck for any top prospect to slip through to us in the draft. Typically they're snatched in the 10-15 range, see SGA, Booker, Mitchell, Klay and now Jalen Williams (who is exactly who I said I was praying we'd draft and stay out of the Playoffs for). I'm not saying Hendricks is that guy (he could be) but odds are way against us being the benefactor of a slept on prospect because usually at the back end of the lottery teams are willing to take a flyer over guys who look to be "NBA ready" good role players ie/ Kris Murray and also why I like Cason Wallace but not in love with him as our pick, seems like he'll obviously be an important rotation player but this team doesn't just need to swap out Gary with a better defending player.....we NEED another star and we could've at least given ourselves a chance had we stayed the course, we'd likely be picking anywhere from 6-12 and I would've liked our odds of coming out with a VERY good player. Now I suspect we will get a good player but not a real difference maker & ceiling raiser. Again just praying for a fluke but the players that should be where we likely land (ie/ 15-17), aren't all that intriguing to me unless maybe we drafted GG Jackson and turned him into the height of his potential. Overall just a depressing forecast ahead for this franchise and disappointing because we did it to ourselves. I would've felt a lot better about this team had we stayed the course both last year & this year, we'd likely have one of Jalen, AJ or Branham right now with another top prospect otw, instead it's 1st rd profits or die trying!

I think everyone here is now overrating Hendricks a bit. I don't see him a high lottery lock so Toronto might be able to get him. The only guy I really hate to miss out on is Cason Wallace. Given the Kentucky guard phenomena, I expect him to be better than in college.

In the 12-17 range, which is where I think Toronto ends up, you can get a project with star upside in GG Jackson or Jett Howard, which won't give immediate returns, but both have huge scoring potential. Curious how Toronto would value a guy like Bilal Coulibaly who is very toolsy and has some star upside just watching his strides and speed with the ball at his size - also at 18 I am not sure if he is done growing.

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I will say that the draft media is a bit too freshman heavy in their mocks. One guy completely forgotten like Mouhamed Gueye is completely forgotten, but he has star upside as a stretch four/five who I like better than Flip.

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;t=38s

I have been thinking quite a bit about Coulibaly. Lots of people on here like Rupert but I wonder, if there's love for Rupert, why not go for Coulibaly? They're similar prospects with Coulibaly being younger and likely available later in the draft.

But yeah as for picking in the 10-12 range, I would absolutely take Wallace over Hendricks if I had to pick one.

I’m a big Coulibaly fan. I think he goes lottery after individual workouts.

[Dalek]

Hendricks can be a solid piece, one that I'd love to add to this roster, but agreed that he's become a little too overrated by some. I see a slightly taller Robert Convington (with the potential to be a little more down the line if everything breaks right).

GG Jackson terrifies me. I have no idea what to make of him. He's super young and obviously skilled so has the potential to develop into a star, but the risk seems too great. Who is going to give him the minutes and reps he needs to develop to his potential?

I love aspects of Jett Howard's game. The ball handling, passing and shooting are great....the defence on the other hand is really really bad. He'd be a tough fit on this team.

I'm fascinated by Coulibably (and imagine Masai would be as well). I'm eager to track how he performs over the next few weeks now that he's with the big club. In any case, the tools and demonstrated improvement he showed with the junior club suggest a super intriguing pre-draft candidate. I imagine he goes top 10 next year if he pulls out.

Love Mo Gueye as an undrafted guy. He's inconsistent, but if he can finally put everything together he's got a real chance to be a player. The skillset is there. I agree with the star-upside, but would rather not spend a pick to take that bet

Thanks for commenting on all those guys. They are all a bit of mystery box picks, and this draft is full of the highly touted but poor producing draft prospects. That said, the NBA can work with raw materials and often guys get slept on.

GG terrifies me the most because from his poor stats to his poutiness on social media, you expect people to dump his stock including Toronto. That said, he is so young, younger than even Coulibably. He has time to mature and refine his game. I mean footwork and shot elevation like this is rare. He could be a great partner for Scottie (like Leonard and George)

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There is also just something about how fluidly Coulibably moves and reads the game that makes me think of Giannis. He isn't quite the size, but when this guy fill out and develops, he could be a scary wing.

[Dalek]

Wasserman Big Board update had a couple shockers including Smith Jr. dropping to 12, but a few guys in the Raptor's range:

14. Kobe Bufkin (Michigan, PG/SG, Sophomore)

A steady buildup of ball-handling and shot-making flashes culminated in Bufkin averaging 18.7 points over his final nine games. The eye test buys the smoothness of his creativity, dribble-jumper game and craftiness around the basket, but there are also promising stat indicators.

Bufkin shot 84.9 percent from the free-throw line and 48.9 percent on long twos, both of which are promising signs for his shooting potential (35.5 percent on only 3.7 3PTA). Although he isn't super strong or athletic, he was the most efficient finisher (71.1 percent at the rim) among first-round guards, showing impressive body control and adjustments to challenges.

Savvy passing, quick hands on defense and age (19) pump more intrigue into Bufkin's scouting report. He'll have an interesting decision ahead with a bigger 2023-24 role waiting and a weaker draft class to compete with next year.

17. Colby Jones (Xavier, PG/SG, Junior)

Jones looked easy to picture on an NBA floor during his 10-point, 14-rebound, seven-assist game against Pittsburgh on Sunday. Between the pick-and-roll passing, improved shooting (38.3 percent 3PT), contact finishing at 6'6 and defensive versatility, NBA coaches won't need to find a specific fit or the right position for him.

Low-volume three-point attempts (3.3 per game), 26.9 percent on pull-ups and a 65.3 free-throw percentage do suggest Jones' jump shot will take more time. But he also more than doubled last year's three-point makes (21 to 44), while his 55.1 percent mark on floaters highlights touch.

16. Jett Howard (Michigan, SF, Freshman)

Despite a late-season ankle injury and three-point slump, Howard's shot-making for a 6'8" wing still warrants top-20 interest.

He won't have much margin for error, as his 2.0 assists per game, 25 half-court buckets at the rim in 29 games and defensive limitations suggest Howard will lean heavy on jumpers. But between his 78 made threes, his 38.1 percent mark on pull-ups and his 80.0 free-throw percentage, there are enough reasons to buy his shooting.

Occasional flashes of ball-handling into step-backs and floaters also hinted at more self-creation and scoring potential.

20. Brandin Podziemski (Santa Clara, PG/SG, Sophomore)

From an NBA projection standpoint, it's worth questioning the validity of Podziemski's production (19.9 points, 3.7 assists) given Santa Clara's schedule and his limited physical tools/athleticism. But he was too efficient (60.2 true shooting percentage) and convincing while executing his creativity, off-the-dribble shooting (39.5 percent), floater/runner touch (47.9 percent) and passing skill.

Despite a limited frame at 6'5", he led the WCC in rebounding with 8.8 boards per game.

Along with an outstanding skill level for creating separation, shot-making and playmaking, Podziemski has a level of aggression, confidence and instincts that help reduce fear over how he'll fare against NBA-level athletes. The fact that he shot 44.0 percent on catch-and-shoots and graded as one of the best transition and cutting finishers is also comforting for his off-ball projection in case the on-ball stuff doesn't carry over so easily.

22. Maxwell Lewis (Pepperdine, SG/SF, Junior)

Lewis' 6'7" size, improved shot creation and three-level shot-making casts visions of an NBA scoring wing. Pepperdine's 9-22 record, Lewis' inability to improve it and uninspiring defense just make it difficult to project a lottery talent confidently.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10069413-2023-nba-draft-big-board-top-50-prospects-ahead-of-sweet-16

[Rapsfan07]

There are only 7 guaranteed contracts and one player option for 2022-23. Between that and ability to carry 20 players in the summer, if they want to make a trade(s), roster spots won’t be the limiting factor.

I’ll be extremely disappointed if they bring back this team as currently is. I’m all for patience, but I’m also for accountability and cutting losses.

I couldn't agree more.

Also, I wouldn't be too sure about moving OG before moving Siakam. Masai and Co. were very clear about their feelings around Siakam when they moved a lightly protected 1st and this year's second (as good as a first in this draft) for an expiring Poeltl. They didn't make a move for his best friend AND make the team better for 6 months just to turn around and move Siakam in the summer. I can personally guarantee you that will not happen.

Then you have to consider the fact that there has been quite a bit of smoke around OG's unhappiness with his role on this team AND that outside of moving either him or Barnes, we literally have NO way to improve this team. Everyone else is either expiring (FVV, Trent, Poeltl) and/or necessary for winning both now and in the future (Siakam & Barnes). So the only guy who doesn't fit is OG.

Consider the payroll as well. Trent, FVV & Poeltl are all looking for new contracts this summer, OG and Siakam are next year (we could see Siakam being worth the max) and then Barnes the year after. We can't keep them all and be a contender at the same time. This team is very much at a stalemate and in order to break it, we need to either get extremely lucky in this draft (seeing as we do not have a pick next year) or rebuild. Again, this is why so many of us wanted to rebuild.

I've mentioned that I think Indiana, Portland and Utah are good trading spots for OG as they both have multiple picks in this draft. Chicago is a decent landing space for Vanvleet as well.

As for our pick, all we have to do is keep losing. If we can guarantee ourselves a Top 10 pick, that's all we need. If you can't grab Hendricks or Wallace (or both if you like them that much), then you can move back and grab some of the better role players toward the back end of the draft.

I don't see how OG is unhappy about his role, and there is no evidence. We also provided a lot of opportunities for him to create (posting up, PnR handler, etc.), but his play type of those are among bottom, and pretty sure he knows it as well.

Meanwhile, OG is the best fit with Siakam and Barnes, as neither Siakam and Barnes can guard elite scorer, so we need someone with his skill set who can also stretch the floor, and our success plan (Achiuwa?) isn't even close being that role.

As for the return, it doesn't make us better. Clearly those who doesn't like our record isn't accepting how Barnes has been developed. Our defensive issue has been pretty much Barnes mistakes, which is pretty much costing us games. Now adding more rookies would solve that?

If you are trading OG with assets for Brown, I can understand this can improve the team. Trading OG for a rookie? And that rookie maybe projected as OG (teams are willing to give up a pick better than the player they trade for)? Sorry, I don't see how that is an improvement, it seems to be the same talent level.

I don't believe I said anything about trading OG for a pick that's better than him. That doesn't make much sense for the other team. But even if you make that assertment, a pick is never a guarantee. A player that's mocked or even selected at ...let's say 8, it doesn't necessarily mean that player is going to reach their perceived potential. That's the chance both teams take when they move a player for picks in general.

But what we do know for sure is we cannot win with this core, even at their current price tags, much less when we have to pay them all.

What I also know is Masai is not trading Siakam. So from there, the math tells me we need to do at least one of the following:
A) rob someone blind in a S&T this summer
B) draft a superstar in the middle of the draft this year
C) trade Barnes or OG to bring in help for this core.

I don't recommend C but the other two are so extremely unlikely that there's no point banking on it.

So even if that help is in the form of rookies with equal or similar impact, we still won since they'd be cheaper and under team control for a longer time, allowing us much needed financial flexibility. You spoke of doing OG + assets for Brown...but what assets? We don't have any.

[ArthurVandelay]

Said it many times, no roster spot.
There is literally no way the Raptors trade away the most complimenting player connecting with Siakam and Barnes. If we are trading OG, we are most likely trading Siakam ahead.

There are only 7 guaranteed contracts and one player option for 2022-23. Between that and ability to carry 20 players in the summer, if they want to make a trade(s), roster spots won’t be the limiting factor.

I’ll be extremely disappointed if they bring back this team as currently is. I’m all for patience, but I’m also for accountability and cutting losses.

20 players in summer only, you have to waive someone at a cost afterward, I assume (since you need to take back salary). Or we are not re-signing someone, which I feel we would lose more than making a marginal trade. In this weak draft, you are really looking at a top 5 pick to compensate for OG (and just for OG), losing anyone from free agent will actually lower our talent level (current & future).

Your claim of "all for patience" doesn't sound right, as the current problem is Barnes not capable of defending nor scoring and need more time to develop, yet, you think we need a change now, which is pretty contradicting.

Reducing contracts doesn’t have to be at a cost. You’re talking absolutes, black and white, when the situation is very fluid and a lot of gray. Between non-guaranteed contracts, follow up trades, free agents possibly leaving or not brought back, there is no guarantee there won’t be roster spots available.

All of us are peddling opinions. I can guarantee you I’m not Bobby’s burner - lol - so I beg to differ on the problem. I see a lack of depth, not enough shooting, and longer term not enough room below the luxury tax to keep a core in place that is in 9th fighting for 8th place and could possibly slip to 10th over the final 10 games.

I take Masai at his word that he wants to compete for championships. This core isn’t the DD/Lowry teams that were winning 50+ perennially and couldn’t get it done in the playoffs. The team took a major step back this year. Something has to give, hence accountability and cutting losses. That could be a roster shake up or a coaching change.

I didn’t mind OG not traded last draft/summer or at trade deadline this year. I didn’t and still don’t mind the Poeltl trade. I still have faith in Scottie. But I haven’t seen enough to run this team back as is. Unless FVV or GTJr leave, there is not enough money to keep everyone. Something has to give and with all the rumors around OG, I wouldn’t want him to be an UFA in 2024 and leave for nothing as what ended up happening with other core players in recent years.

The rumours around OG last year sounded like Klutch leaks and the rumours around the trade deadline sounded like Raptor leaks to increase his value. I see a possible OG trade as the equivalent of the Rudy Gay trade (minus the score sheet banning, haha). The Raptors traded the best player but the pieces they returned made a better team. Suggesting trading OG isn’t meant as an insult to OG. If anything it is a compliment because I think he can return players and draft picks to better balance the roster and relieve the coming luxury tax pressure. I believe a trade of OG will net a large return and I certainly don’t advocate trading him for the sake of trading him.

Of course if Fred or Gary leave the future tax issue is relieved, however there is less talent and even less depth, as you said. The only way to fix that is a trade…unless you run the team back again thinking they improve minus one or both of Fred or Gary.

Anyways, I think anyone who has suffered through 72 games this season has exhibited real patience and wanting to see change for next year isn’t a contradiction…unless you think this year was a fluke (I don’t).

[Grew]

The guys who stand out for me right now are Wallace, Gradey and Sasser. In the right situation I think these guys are can't miss production and could be OG level value players. Those 3 have a great mix of toughness, skill and basketball IQ.

The guy I'm not a big fan of right now is Bufkin. Not sure if he has a combination of size/skill/athleticism to get his game off in the NBA as a player with the ball in his hands. I'm not loving the Poole comparison, I'm seeing more SG Cam Payne. It may not be a good idea to judge a player off one moment, but when he tentatively threw the ball off his 7 footers back at half court with 2 seconds left in a conference tournament game down 3 points.. Just doesn't sit well.

[Kevin Willis]

Bilal blowing by defenders in those vids has more to do with how poorly he was defended rather than showing special dribble penetration and finishing ability. France's U21 league is filled with scrubs. So many times he's just completely uncontested driving to the rim because of a poor defensive rotation or some form of bad defending. Envisioning what he would be doing as a college freshman I don't see him pulling most of that stuff off against NCAA competition. He's too raw for my liking and he's 3 years away from being 3 years away, it's just facts. That's assuming he actually develops his game and his body enough to be successful to any degree against NBA competition.

This is a more accurate take

- Bilal started to really shine in the FIBA U18 2022 (It had Cissoko, Little, Berke, Rupert). However the french team is deep and he didn't get too much playing time. Still his athleticism was noted and he was identified as up and coming but raw
- He outbattled Bronny in an exhibition. Showing his athleticism and skill and more importantly fire
- Met (VW's squad) has a jv and varsity team. He started out playing on the jv squad this year and dominated. If you see his highlights, most of them are schooling these guys. He was so dominant they called him up where his role changed playing with VW. He still played very well. If you want comparison, the Met team beat Ignite twice. Ignite is probably the worse team in the G-League so this Met team has lower than G-League talent but higher than NCAA talent. His numbers in varsity are 4/2/0.5 on 60/60/50. Once again he was considered raw but has made huge leaps this season to get to where he is now.
- In terms of comparing him to Bruno, the big difference is motor. Bruno has the motor of a pony. Bilal has the motor of a stallion. Bilal is respectful but he wants to beat you, dunk on you. Respectfully. What has kept him back? I got this from a french magazine (his character is very high btw).

And if no one knew Bilal Coulibaly a year ago, it's because the Mets "took [their] time with him" , by Philippe Sudre's own admission. ... a playmaker, from the top of his 182 centimeters at the time (while he is now close to 2 meters). Then, his development was punctuated by obstacles: a back injury, the Covid, vitamin problems with iron deficiencies... In fact, in the 2019/20 and 2020/21 ... he only competed three games with the cadets."But last year, he began to flourish with the U18 group, to become the leader (23.9 points), and he then took his place in Espoirs (11.8 points)"... . Better: in 2022, {he} suddenly became one of the most famous prospects in French basketball, standing out for his ability to play and defend at three positions, accumulating individual awards, successively MVP of the international tournament of Bellegarde-sur-Valserine and MVP of the Euro Tour Axis , this famous match in mondovision against Bronny James and company mid-August in Nanterre.

I won't consider who we should pick until after measurements / tests are done but I know Masai said he wanted long, lengthy players. He also said he wanted scorers / shooters. He also wants guys that can guard at multiple positions. Bilal has most of that and he used to be a guard. He reminds me of a young TMac for a few reasons. 1. his body is long, lean and explosive. 2. he handles the ball well. 3. he's always attacking the rim, pure scorer (that's why he shoots over 50% - closer to 60%) 4. he glides with the ball (good Eurostep) 5. he can be effective as a secondary player until it's his time. I definitely like him over the Thompson twins because to me they're uber-athletes that play basketball. He seems more like a basketball player that is athletic. Remember he's only 18 though, so he's going to be raw for a couple more years. However he has the potential. Plus a French All-Star level player would be huge for MLSE. That's all I would say about him. Anyway I will leave you with some young TMac to enjoy.

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;ab_channel=Serafim009

[Indeed]

There are only 7 guaranteed contracts and one player option for 2022-23. Between that and ability to carry 20 players in the summer, if they want to make a trade(s), roster spots won’t be the limiting factor.

I’ll be extremely disappointed if they bring back this team as currently is. I’m all for patience, but I’m also for accountability and cutting losses.

20 players in summer only, you have to waive someone at a cost afterward, I assume (since you need to take back salary). Or we are not re-signing someone, which I feel we would lose more than making a marginal trade. In this weak draft, you are really looking at a top 5 pick to compensate for OG (and just for OG), losing anyone from free agent will actually lower our talent level (current & future).

Your claim of "all for patience" doesn't sound right, as the current problem is Barnes not capable of defending nor scoring and need more time to develop, yet, you think we need a change now, which is pretty contradicting.

Reducing contracts doesn’t have to be at a cost. You’re talking absolutes, black and white, when the situation is very fluid and a lot of gray. Between non-guaranteed contracts, follow up trades, free agents possibly leaving or not brought back, there is no guarantee there won’t be roster spots available.

All of us are peddling opinions. I can guarantee you I’m not Bobby’s burner - lol - so I beg to differ on the problem. I see a lack of depth, not enough shooting, and longer term not enough room below the luxury tax to keep a core in place that is in 9th fighting for 8th place and could possibly slip to 10th over the final 10 games.

I take Masai at his word that he wants to compete for championships. This core isn’t the DD/Lowry teams that were winning 50+ perennially and couldn’t get it done in the playoffs. The team took a major step back this year. Something has to give, hence accountability and cutting losses. That could be a roster shake up or a coaching change.

I didn’t mind OG not traded last draft/summer or at trade deadline this year. I didn’t and still don’t mind the Poeltl trade. I still have faith in Scottie. But I haven’t seen enough to run this team back as is. Unless FVV or GTJr leave, there is not enough money to keep everyone. Something has to give and with all the rumors around OG, I wouldn’t want him to be an UFA in 2024 and leave for nothing as what ended up happening with other core players in recent years.

The rumours around OG last year sounded like Klutch leaks and the rumours around the trade deadline sounded like Raptor leaks to increase his value. I see a possible OG trade as the equivalent of the Rudy Gay trade (minus the score sheet banning, haha). The Raptors traded the best player but the pieces they returned made a better team. Suggesting trading OG isn’t meant as an insult to OG. If anything it is a compliment because I think he can return players and draft picks to better balance the roster and relieve the coming luxury tax pressure. I believe a trade of OG will net a large return and I certainly don’t advocate trading him for the sake of trading him.

Of course if Fred or Gary leave the future tax issue is relieved, however there is less talent and even less depth, as you said. The only way to fix that is a trade…unless you run the team back again thinking they improve minus one or both of Fred or Gary.

Anyways, I think anyone who has suffered through 72 games this season has exhibited real patience and wanting to see change for next year isn’t a contradiction…unless you think this year was a fluke (I don’t).

I disagree that our problem is depth, I said multiple times, our problem is starter!
And I see no tax in the future, that is your assumption, and assume we can't make a trade before we predicted to be a tax team. Every team will go through players being FA, not seeing why our team has to be afraid of it and trade players ahead of time.

As for this year issue, when we have Barnes starting who costs us games (particularly on the defensive end), that is not lack of depth nor fluke, but we are having our bench starting. Trent is another one where many believe he should come off the bench. Having Poeltl (borderline starter) makes us better. And trading OG for picks (further removing starting quality players) will probably make us worse.

[Indeed]

I couldn't agree more.

Also, I wouldn't be too sure about moving OG before moving Siakam. Masai and Co. were very clear about their feelings around Siakam when they moved a lightly protected 1st and this year's second (as good as a first in this draft) for an expiring Poeltl. They didn't make a move for his best friend AND make the team better for 6 months just to turn around and move Siakam in the summer. I can personally guarantee you that will not happen.

Then you have to consider the fact that there has been quite a bit of smoke around OG's unhappiness with his role on this team AND that outside of moving either him or Barnes, we literally have NO way to improve this team. Everyone else is either expiring (FVV, Trent, Poeltl) and/or necessary for winning both now and in the future (Siakam & Barnes). So the only guy who doesn't fit is OG.

Consider the payroll as well. Trent, FVV & Poeltl are all looking for new contracts this summer, OG and Siakam are next year (we could see Siakam being worth the max) and then Barnes the year after. We can't keep them all and be a contender at the same time. This team is very much at a stalemate and in order to break it, we need to either get extremely lucky in this draft (seeing as we do not have a pick next year) or rebuild. Again, this is why so many of us wanted to rebuild.

I've mentioned that I think Indiana, Portland and Utah are good trading spots for OG as they both have multiple picks in this draft. Chicago is a decent landing space for Vanvleet as well.

As for our pick, all we have to do is keep losing. If we can guarantee ourselves a Top 10 pick, that's all we need. If you can't grab Hendricks or Wallace (or both if you like them that much), then you can move back and grab some of the better role players toward the back end of the draft.

I don't see how OG is unhappy about his role, and there is no evidence. We also provided a lot of opportunities for him to create (posting up, PnR handler, etc.), but his play type of those are among bottom, and pretty sure he knows it as well.

Meanwhile, OG is the best fit with Siakam and Barnes, as neither Siakam and Barnes can guard elite scorer, so we need someone with his skill set who can also stretch the floor, and our success plan (Achiuwa?) isn't even close being that role.

As for the return, it doesn't make us better. Clearly those who doesn't like our record isn't accepting how Barnes has been developed. Our defensive issue has been pretty much Barnes mistakes, which is pretty much costing us games. Now adding more rookies would solve that?

If you are trading OG with assets for Brown, I can understand this can improve the team. Trading OG for a rookie? And that rookie maybe projected as OG (teams are willing to give up a pick better than the player they trade for)? Sorry, I don't see how that is an improvement, it seems to be the same talent level.

I don't believe I said anything about trading OG for a pick that's better than him. That doesn't make much sense for the other team. But even if you make that assertment, a pick is never a guarantee. A player that's mocked or even selected at ...let's say 8, it doesn't necessarily mean that player is going to reach their perceived potential. That's the chance both teams take when they move a player for picks in general.

But what we do know for sure is we cannot win with this core, even at their current price tags, much less when we have to pay them all.

What I also know is Masai is not trading Siakam. So from there, the math tells me we need to do at least one of the following:
A) rob someone blind in a S&T this summer
B) draft a superstar in the middle of the draft this year
C) trade Barnes or OG to bring in help for this core.

I don't recommend C but the other two are so extremely unlikely that there's no point banking on it.

So even if that help is in the form of rookies with equal or similar impact, we still won since they'd be cheaper and under team control for a longer time, allowing us much needed financial flexibility. You spoke of doing OG + assets for Brown...but what assets? We don't have any.

No, our option has always been
D) player development.

This strategy sets us back a little this season, with many teams upgraded as well (Cleveland with Mitchell, New York with Brunson, etc.). And we tried other strategy this year with FA (signed Porter, yet he is injured the whole season) or consolidate our bench (with a starter) for upgrade (Young - 8m, Flynn - 3.8m), and none of them happened well as we planned for.

I think we should keep the above strategy if other strategy are unlikely (A and B in your example). I don't see any rush in changing strategy.

[ArthurVandelay]

20 players in summer only, you have to waive someone at a cost afterward, I assume (since you need to take back salary). Or we are not re-signing someone, which I feel we would lose more than making a marginal trade. In this weak draft, you are really looking at a top 5 pick to compensate for OG (and just for OG), losing anyone from free agent will actually lower our talent level (current & future).

Your claim of "all for patience" doesn't sound right, as the current problem is Barnes not capable of defending nor scoring and need more time to develop, yet, you think we need a change now, which is pretty contradicting.

Reducing contracts doesn’t have to be at a cost. You’re talking absolutes, black and white, when the situation is very fluid and a lot of gray. Between non-guaranteed contracts, follow up trades, free agents possibly leaving or not brought back, there is no guarantee there won’t be roster spots available.

All of us are peddling opinions. I can guarantee you I’m not Bobby’s burner - lol - so I beg to differ on the problem. I see a lack of depth, not enough shooting, and longer term not enough room below the luxury tax to keep a core in place that is in 9th fighting for 8th place and could possibly slip to 10th over the final 10 games.

I take Masai at his word that he wants to compete for championships. This core isn’t the DD/Lowry teams that were winning 50+ perennially and couldn’t get it done in the playoffs. The team took a major step back this year. Something has to give, hence accountability and cutting losses. That could be a roster shake up or a coaching change.

I didn’t mind OG not traded last draft/summer or at trade deadline this year. I didn’t and still don’t mind the Poeltl trade. I still have faith in Scottie. But I haven’t seen enough to run this team back as is. Unless FVV or GTJr leave, there is not enough money to keep everyone. Something has to give and with all the rumors around OG, I wouldn’t want him to be an UFA in 2024 and leave for nothing as what ended up happening with other core players in recent years.

The rumours around OG last year sounded like Klutch leaks and the rumours around the trade deadline sounded like Raptor leaks to increase his value. I see a possible OG trade as the equivalent of the Rudy Gay trade (minus the score sheet banning, haha). The Raptors traded the best player but the pieces they returned made a better team. Suggesting trading OG isn’t meant as an insult to OG. If anything it is a compliment because I think he can return players and draft picks to better balance the roster and relieve the coming luxury tax pressure. I believe a trade of OG will net a large return and I certainly don’t advocate trading him for the sake of trading him.

Of course if Fred or Gary leave the future tax issue is relieved, however there is less talent and even less depth, as you said. The only way to fix that is a trade…unless you run the team back again thinking they improve minus one or both of Fred or Gary.

Anyways, I think anyone who has suffered through 72 games this season has exhibited real patience and wanting to see change for next year isn’t a contradiction…unless you think this year was a fluke (I don’t).

I disagree that our problem is depth, I said multiple times, our problem is starter!
And I see no tax in the future, that is your assumption, and assume we can't make a trade before we predicted to be a tax team. Every team will go through players being FA, not seeing why our team has to be afraid of it and trade players ahead of time.

As for this year issue, when we have Barnes starting who costs us games (particularly on the defensive end), that is not lack of depth nor fluke, but we are having our bench starting. Trent is another one where many believe he should come off the bench. Having Poeltl (borderline starter) makes us better. And trading OG for picks (further removing starting quality players) will probably make us worse.

Pretty sure the starting unit with Poeltl is top 5 net rating.

The (what I assume were) Raptor leaks made clear they want established, controllable young players over picks. I think in the right combination OG could provide both picks and players.

If the Raptors bring everyone back plus their first round pick, they are a tax team next year. That factors Poeltl at $20m and FVV and Gary taking their player option (when in reality they are likely opting out and looking for larger starting salary than their options). No assumption, that’s fact: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/cap/2023/

[Indeed]

Reducing contracts doesn’t have to be at a cost. You’re talking absolutes, black and white, when the situation is very fluid and a lot of gray. Between non-guaranteed contracts, follow up trades, free agents possibly leaving or not brought back, there is no guarantee there won’t be roster spots available.

All of us are peddling opinions. I can guarantee you I’m not Bobby’s burner - lol - so I beg to differ on the problem. I see a lack of depth, not enough shooting, and longer term not enough room below the luxury tax to keep a core in place that is in 9th fighting for 8th place and could possibly slip to 10th over the final 10 games.

I take Masai at his word that he wants to compete for championships. This core isn’t the DD/Lowry teams that were winning 50+ perennially and couldn’t get it done in the playoffs. The team took a major step back this year. Something has to give, hence accountability and cutting losses. That could be a roster shake up or a coaching change.

I didn’t mind OG not traded last draft/summer or at trade deadline this year. I didn’t and still don’t mind the Poeltl trade. I still have faith in Scottie. But I haven’t seen enough to run this team back as is. Unless FVV or GTJr leave, there is not enough money to keep everyone. Something has to give and with all the rumors around OG, I wouldn’t want him to be an UFA in 2024 and leave for nothing as what ended up happening with other core players in recent years.

The rumours around OG last year sounded like Klutch leaks and the rumours around the trade deadline sounded like Raptor leaks to increase his value. I see a possible OG trade as the equivalent of the Rudy Gay trade (minus the score sheet banning, haha). The Raptors traded the best player but the pieces they returned made a better team. Suggesting trading OG isn’t meant as an insult to OG. If anything it is a compliment because I think he can return players and draft picks to better balance the roster and relieve the coming luxury tax pressure. I believe a trade of OG will net a large return and I certainly don’t advocate trading him for the sake of trading him.

Of course if Fred or Gary leave the future tax issue is relieved, however there is less talent and even less depth, as you said. The only way to fix that is a trade…unless you run the team back again thinking they improve minus one or both of Fred or Gary.

Anyways, I think anyone who has suffered through 72 games this season has exhibited real patience and wanting to see change for next year isn’t a contradiction…unless you think this year was a fluke (I don’t).

I disagree that our problem is depth, I said multiple times, our problem is starter!
And I see no tax in the future, that is your assumption, and assume we can't make a trade before we predicted to be a tax team. Every team will go through players being FA, not seeing why our team has to be afraid of it and trade players ahead of time.

As for this year issue, when we have Barnes starting who costs us games (particularly on the defensive end), that is not lack of depth nor fluke, but we are having our bench starting. Trent is another one where many believe he should come off the bench. Having Poeltl (borderline starter) makes us better. And trading OG for picks (further removing starting quality players) will probably make us worse.

Pretty sure the starting unit with Poeltl is top 5 net rating.

The (what I assume were) Raptor leaks made clear they want established, controllable young players over picks. I think in the right combination OG could provide both picks and players.

If the Raptors bring everyone back plus their first round pick, they are a tax team next year. That factors Poeltl at $20m and FVV and Gary taking their player option (when in reality they are likely opting out and looking for larger starting salary than their options). No assumption, that’s fact: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/cap/2023/

Your assumption is that OG doesn't need salary in return, no?
If there is salary in return for OG, we are also above the tax, no?

Meanwhile, if you are including Poeltl, then we have excessive bench players right? How is our problem being lack of depth? And we are paying 16m for Trent to come off the bench? The total bench salary is Trent (16m) + Boucher (11m) + Young (8m) + Porter (6m) + Achiuwa (4m) + Flynn (3m), which is more than a max contract player? So we are into tax because we pay 1/4 salary to the bench?

[Rapsfan07]

I don't see how OG is unhappy about his role, and there is no evidence. We also provided a lot of opportunities for him to create (posting up, PnR handler, etc.), but his play type of those are among bottom, and pretty sure he knows it as well.

Meanwhile, OG is the best fit with Siakam and Barnes, as neither Siakam and Barnes can guard elite scorer, so we need someone with his skill set who can also stretch the floor, and our success plan (Achiuwa?) isn't even close being that role.

As for the return, it doesn't make us better. Clearly those who doesn't like our record isn't accepting how Barnes has been developed. Our defensive issue has been pretty much Barnes mistakes, which is pretty much costing us games. Now adding more rookies would solve that?

If you are trading OG with assets for Brown, I can understand this can improve the team. Trading OG for a rookie? And that rookie maybe projected as OG (teams are willing to give up a pick better than the player they trade for)? Sorry, I don't see how that is an improvement, it seems to be the same talent level.

I don't believe I said anything about trading OG for a pick that's better than him. That doesn't make much sense for the other team. But even if you make that assertment, a pick is never a guarantee. A player that's mocked or even selected at ...let's say 8, it doesn't necessarily mean that player is going to reach their perceived potential. That's the chance both teams take when they move a player for picks in general.

But what we do know for sure is we cannot win with this core, even at their current price tags, much less when we have to pay them all.

What I also know is Masai is not trading Siakam. So from there, the math tells me we need to do at least one of the following:
A) rob someone blind in a S&T this summer
B) draft a superstar in the middle of the draft this year
C) trade Barnes or OG to bring in help for this core.

I don't recommend C but the other two are so extremely unlikely that there's no point banking on it.

So even if that help is in the form of rookies with equal or similar impact, we still won since they'd be cheaper and under team control for a longer time, allowing us much needed financial flexibility. You spoke of doing OG + assets for Brown...but what assets? We don't have any.

No, our option has always been
D) player development.

This strategy sets us back a little this season, with many teams upgraded as well (Cleveland with Mitchell, New York with Brunson, etc.). And we tried other strategy this year with FA (signed Porter, yet he is injured the whole season) or consolidate our bench (with a starter) for upgrade (Young - 8m, Flynn - 3.8m), and none of them happened well as we planned for.

I think we should keep the above strategy if other strategy are unlikely (A and B in your example). I don't see any rush in changing strategy.

How has D worked out for us so far? How's Malachi? Or Barnes? Or even Anunoby for that matter?

I agree that Option D is what they've picked and what they'll continue to pick but I don't agree that it's a good idea, much less the right one. Because at the end the day, you have to find talent worth developing. Barnes is never going to be Lebron, Koloko is never going to be Gobert and Trent is never going to be Wade. Doesn't mean they're not going to be good or useful NBA pieces but they're not going to magically transform into superstars.

So instead of wasting seasons and other player's primes wishing upon a star for something thats probably not going to happen, commit to one end or the other. Either rebuild it or push your chips in the middle and try to go for it.

[Indeed]

I don't believe I said anything about trading OG for a pick that's better than him. That doesn't make much sense for the other team. But even if you make that assertment, a pick is never a guarantee. A player that's mocked or even selected at ...let's say 8, it doesn't necessarily mean that player is going to reach their perceived potential. That's the chance both teams take when they move a player for picks in general.

But what we do know for sure is we cannot win with this core, even at their current price tags, much less when we have to pay them all.

What I also know is Masai is not trading Siakam. So from there, the math tells me we need to do at least one of the following:
A) rob someone blind in a S&T this summer
B) draft a superstar in the middle of the draft this year
C) trade Barnes or OG to bring in help for this core.

I don't recommend C but the other two are so extremely unlikely that there's no point banking on it.

So even if that help is in the form of rookies with equal or similar impact, we still won since they'd be cheaper and under team control for a longer time, allowing us much needed financial flexibility. You spoke of doing OG + assets for Brown...but what assets? We don't have any.

No, our option has always been
D) player development.

This strategy sets us back a little this season, with many teams upgraded as well (Cleveland with Mitchell, New York with Brunson, etc.). And we tried other strategy this year with FA (signed Porter, yet he is injured the whole season) or consolidate our bench (with a starter) for upgrade (Young - 8m, Flynn - 3.8m), and none of them happened well as we planned for.

I think we should keep the above strategy if other strategy are unlikely (A and B in your example). I don't see any rush in changing strategy.

How has D worked out for us so far? How's Malachi? Or Barnes? Or even Anunoby for that matter?

I agree that Option D is what they've picked and what they'll continue to pick but I don't agree that it's a good idea, much less the right one. Because at the end the day, you have to find talent worth developing. Barnes is never going to be Lebron, Koloko is never going to be Gobert and Trent is never going to be Wade. Doesn't mean they're not going to be good or useful NBA pieces but they're not going to magically transform into superstars.

So instead of wasting seasons and other player's primes wishing upon a star for something thats probably not going to happen, commit to one end or the other. Either rebuild it or push your chips in the middle and try to go for it.

How has C worked out for us so far? You think the value of Flynn is high? What about Trent?

I agree that we need to push the chips in, but I doubt the current return on our players are getting upgrades. The Poeltl trade (expiring contract) was a lightly protected 1st round pick, which I am unsure it was even worth it, but there may not be an upgrade available for trade.

[WuTang_CMB]

Tonights lackluster proves why we need a real shake up and not just by adding a 1st rounder

[WuTang_CMB]

Was high on nembhard last year. Totally outplayed FVV.

Need guard depth. Cason pls

[WuTang_CMB]

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Pod entering is good. Added depth for draft