MavsDirk41 wrote:OhayoKD wrote:MavsDirk41 wrote:
I can post a bunch of stuff
Post or don't post. There is no "can". Don't tag me if all you got is a bluff
Ok ill play. Since you made this Jordan vs James lets go:
Offense: Jordan won 10 scoring titles and has the highest scoring average points per game in the regular season and postseason. He could attack the basket, post up, mid range game all day, and he was an 85% free throw shooter. Only weakness was he was never a great 3pt shooter but he never needed it. He was a more dynamic, consistent, and better offensive player than James.
Sadly, offense isn't only scoring. Even early on, Lebron was a much better passer and at 24 we see Lebron matching 90/91 Jordan's efficiency/scoring/turnover economy in the playoffs(while creating much more) despite being the primary ball-handler(Jordan was a secondary ball-handler post-triangle), being the primary orchestrator(Pippen told people where to go for the triangle), and facing significantly more defensive attention(Deferring to Pippen/Illegal d led to Jordan being doubled very little and fairly late). Mind you, that was an improvement on a 66-win worthy base in 2009(in similar circumstances Jordan's bulls topped out at 50).
Lebron led a +5 offense at the age of 20(full-strength) after joining a 17-win team, losing his best teammate, and playing without 3-point specialists(in a league where that was a bigger disadvantage). "More dynamic/consistent" offensive player MJ was stuck at +1 until the triangle allowed him to switch from failing to do everything Lebron can(there's more to offense than ppg/scoring titles), to succeeding in a significantly more limited role(secondary ball-handler, not the orchestrator, co-creator).
By his second Cleveland stint, Lebron had become good to very good at all these scoring weaknesses while also upgrading his passing and decision making. The end result was a player whose production/efficiency was barely affected by opposing defensive quality(he actually put up his best numbers vs the league's best defense), who could adjust and counter opposing schemes like no one else ever:
Lebron and Jordan are rated as comparable offensive players by box-aggregates. Notable because box-aggregates have no way of differentiating between the quality of a created look
Overall, Kobe’s rate of “good” passes in my sample was around 3 per 100. For comparison, Jordan was at 2 per 100 and an all-timer like Nash over 8 per 100.8
As a result of his increased primacy and evolved court vision, LeBron’s creation rates jumped from about 11 per 100 to a whopping 14 per 100, just short of the highest rates ever estimated. In my sampling, his quality passes leapt into the upper stratosphere, reaching Nash-like frequencies with a “good” pass on 8 percent of his possessions.
or accounting for the value of being able to verbally direct an offense...
Heej wrote:Highly reminiscent of what Phil wrote in Eleven Rings about Scottie being the quarterback and middle linebacker for offense and defense, being the guy who bore mental load of running the offense and getting people in their spots on defense and directing people. This allowed MJ to singularly focus on getting buckets as well as following his own defensive plan alongside the common Jordan steal improvisations. When you play, it can't be overstated how draining and constricting it is to be the guy responsible for rhe majority of the communication on the floor for one end, let alone both ends.
Which is what makes LeBron so incredible because he's been the control tower on offense and defense for damn near his entire career. We've had coaches and teammates describe him as a coach on the floor. There was an article during the 2018 Finals I remember where JR Smith said LeBron's communication on the floor legitimately makes everyone one step faster on defense. And this is something he doesn't get nearly enough credit for. But this is a big deal to people who are actually in the game and around the game, because one of the major talking points about the Lakers acquiring Rondo for LeBron was about how helpful it would be for LeBron to have someone else think the game for him and organize sets and get guys to their spots.
While this doesn't show up in box, it does, to a degree, show up when we look at how the presence of both players affect the teams around them. Even when he's less capable than usual at physically bolstering an offense(2015), his "intangibles" make a massive difference:
Unibrodavis wrote:My recollection was the 2020 Lakers had a top 5 offense pre bubble, I feel using the bubble is fine since the Lakers were the one who lost home court
2015/2016/2017/2018 lebron pretty obviously reigned it in during the regular season, 2015 bron obv had injury issues but I their offense was 1st in the games he played, it just was worst in the league level while he was hurt iirc, just checking through.
The playoff offense in 2015 was solid but it’s brought down by the Warriors series, it would have been first otherwise, and it’s hard to knock them for having a poor offense with a team that probably would be the worst offensive team ever without him.
2016 and 2017 they had the best playoff offense ever, 2018 obviously that’s a 20 win roster that went to the finals. My recollection is over the 30 or so games bron missed in his Cleveland tenure they were a bottom tier offensive team, even in the 20 Kyrie or love played, of course the bulls were league average ish
Even in an off-year(bad back, broken jumper) Lebron was more valuable than Jordan offensively, and maintained that value even at a massive spacing disadvantage. It's not because Lebron is limited(by his second stint in Cleveland, Lebron was a very good shooter and an excellent off-ball player), it isn't because Lebron isn't portable(Lebron has achieved more impressive results than Mike with and without strong shooting), and it isn't because Lebron can't lift a ceiling(Lebron's best 5 year playoff offenses are actually better than Mike's).
It's because Lebron is better at basketball. His "assists" are on average more valuable, and he doesn't need a second superstar to run his offense. That doesn't mean he "can't" fit with other stars or a system(Lebron+Wade lineups were comparable to Jordan+Pippen despite a weaker supporting cast, much higher skill-overlap, and Wade literally getting his knees operated over and over again), but it does mean Lebron doesn't need nearly as much to compete or win(The 13 Spurs and the 2016 Cavs were better than anyone MJ triumphed over). And then we get to defense and uhhh...
Defense: Jordan won a DPOY award
Sure...when the DPOY only went to non-bigs:
AEnigma wrote:Mark Eaton was the only big to win Defensive Player of the Year during the award’s first nine years.
But we know now(by tracking the best defenses in history, or looking at how much players improve defenses), that bigger players are more valuable defensively. Even when they don't get as many steals or blocks. This is because the most valuable part of defense is paint-protection, and Lebron(like Pippen) can function as primary paint-protectors on good/elite defenses. Moreover, the blocks/steals smaller players get are usually a byproduct of a bigger player's presence:
ceiling raiser wrote:DraymondGold wrote:(1) Even if steals are overrated in box-based defensive measurements (e.g. if the box stats miss the fact that the steals come expense of unnecessary gambling, as they may for Jordan), steals are still individually the most valuable defensive play someone can make.
So a couple notes here.
(1) You are combining the defensive value of a steal with the offensive value generated. On the defensive side alone, steals aren't nearly as valuable as plays at the rim. Additionally, just like blocks, "steals" from a non-big often are a byproduct of a bigger player's influence...
https://youtu.be/p5aNUS762wM?t=1165
Here, Jordan is able to get a steal because Oakley stonewalls the attacker and occupies his attention. Yet as far as these box-models are concerned, all the credit here belongs to MJ. Notably, it was Oakley's arrival that saw the Bulls become a -2 defense in 1988(the only good defense Jordan has ever anchored), and it was with Oakley's depature that the Bulls fell back to mediocrity(Oakley also helped the knicks see a big overall improvement with New York slanting to offense). Charles did not rack up enough steals or blocks for stuff like "RAPTOR' to love him, but I'd argue on plays like these, its Oakley who deserves most of the credit, not steal-getter MJ.
Ultimately though, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the winning. Lebron, at 30 and 31 was having a bigger defensive impact in the regular season(cavs went from bad to solid with him, becoming top 10 post-sabbatical) before we get to the playoffs where he anchored multiple defenses on the level of the Pippen-anchored Bulls:
Sansterre wrote:Playoff Offensive Rating: +4.2 (63rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -5.4 (44th)
Playoff SRS: +9.98 (65th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.72 (26th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.85 (32nd), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -2.37 (41st)
Playoff Offensive Rating: +11.43 (4th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -3.82 (68th)
Playoff SRS: +14.55 (8th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +5.84 (5th)
Shooting Advantage: +3.1%, Possession Advantage: +2.7 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +3.42 (16th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -2.33 (43rd)
More-over, those defenses were resilient, getting even better against top 5 offenses:
Boston Celtics: +7.1 / -3.0
Chicago Bulls: +8.0 / -1.6
Atlanta Hawks: +10.9 / -9.1
Golden State Warriors: -1.7 / -4.3
Detroit Pistons: +14.9 / +4.4
Atlanta Hawks: +21.5 / +4.0
Toronto Raptors: +13.3 / -8.8
Golden State Warriors: +5.3 / -6.0
When we adjust for lineups, Lebron looks outright better than 2x DPOY Kawhi Leonard:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103591642#p103591642
Looking more granularly, even 31 year old Lebron looks comparable in the regular season:
Spoiler:
Lebron didn't stop giving "effort" defensively post-Miami. He simply prioritized paint-protection/help:
aEnigma wrote:Because everywhere else prefers to count accolades, glance at steal totals, and then give an extra bonus when they see some strong individual man defence. The latter is the main reason I think people act as if Lebron stopped trying after 2013: he went full help defender, which is less versatile and why his clear defensive peak is earlier, but that does not mean he stops being a lot more valuable to his teams than Jordan was.
Heej wrote:The posts about LeBron not having enough traditional defensive counting stats pointing to a lack of activity is exactly what's wrong with basketball discourse when discussing defense. Unless you've played organized ball or have taken the time to watch professional level coaching videos on defense, you're not going to appreciate the fact that the most important thing a help defender can be on defense is a "yellow light".
Someone who's able to plug up the gaps or is far enough over on the weakside to "help the helper" and allow the closer weakside defender to fill the gap, or something as simple as tagging a roll man to fly out to a shooter and cause a record scratch is faaaaar more valuable over time than a flashy chest to chest lockdown guy.
uberhikari wrote:The most valuable defensive possession is not a contest, it's when the opponent can't even shoot the ball or has to shoot the ball under awful conditions. A considerable portion of someone like Hakeem's defensive value is when opposing teams won't even attempt a shot because they know he'll be there.
LeBron is the best wing defender in NBA history at this type of defensive jiujitsu. And if he was a better man-to-man perimeter defender with better footwork and a lower offensive load he'd be the best wing defender of all time.
When LeBron studies and remembers your playbook, has the IQ and awarenesses to properly react to an offensive threat, and is either in a position to blow up the action or [b][u]communicate with his teammate so they can do it that provides incredible defensive value.[/b][/u]
So maybe if there's some plus minus stats showing his impact on defense but you don't think it's valid because your eye test tells you he's not active enough; there's a very good possibility that your eye test or weighting of the importance of certain actions (that don't necessarily show up in the box score or in other statistical compilations) is actually not in line with what matters in reality or what truly compounds defensively in the long run.
Even if, for whatever reason, you don't care that 09-17 Lebron looks like maybe the best non-big since Pippen(by any approach rooted in winning rather than box-stuffing), or that wings and bigs have consistently outvalue guards defensively, or that paint-protection, help, and communication are the skills that correlate best with defensive influence historically(Bill Rusell's Celtics maybe being the ultimate example)... Lebron still won more DPOY votes over his 5-year peak(at least per DPOY voting), finished top 5 five years in a row, and finished second twice to all-time bigs, after everyone realized bigs are the most valuable defenders. Recent guard DPOY Marcus Smart has never exhibited the influence 30+ Marc Gasol did in Toronto(average before, all-time-great with, average after). As has no guard in the last 50 years.
Jordan won DPOY on a defense that was significantly worse than the 09 Cavs(Lebron's best help being a half-season of 24 mpg Ben Wallace), and worse than the 2010 Cavs(That best help was now gone). That defense collapsed in the playoffs, and then returned to average when the Bulls lost their best front-court presence, right where they were before they even drafted Mike. It wasn't Jordan's ascension that saw the Bulls defense become elite(film-tracking and on/off actually suggest Jordan's a decline from 88/89 through the first three-peat), but Pippen's. And then they stayed elite when Jordan left to play baseball.
Even if we hone in on man-d, Jordan was not impervious, getting worked by Magic in 91, and then getting torched by Drexler in 92:
CapFan33 wrote:Colts18 did some tracking of Jordan's defense during the 92 finals against Clyde Drexler, and Drexler shot better against MJ than he did against everyone else by a decent margin. He shot 41% overall, but against Jordan specifically shot 44% while he shot 38% against everyone else.
Man-coverage is Lebron's alleged weakness here. But when Lebron, at his defensive apex, wasn't tasked with being the primary rim deterrent(giving him freedom to roam), the results were nothing short of incredible:
Colts18 wrote:Top 5 in on court defensive rating in 2009 (min. 2000 MP):
1. West: 99.2
2. LeBron 100.6
3. Odom 101.4
4. Turkoglu 101.4
5. Howard 101.8
LeBron is also 3rd in FG%, 4th in 3P%, and 3rd in eFG%.
Here is what some of the top SF of 2009 did vs LeBron offensively (their regular season per 36 in parenthesis)
Durant- 16.4 PPG, .518 TS% (23.3 PPG, .577 TS%)
Pierce- 18.1 PPG, .474 TS% (19.7 PPG, .582 TS%)
Johnson- 13.7 PPG, .475 TS% (19.5 PPG, .534 TS%)
Carmelo- 15.8 PPG, .488 TS% (23.8 PPG, .532 TS%)
Butler- 14.2 PPG, .438 TS% (19.4 PPG, .552 TS%)
Gay- 10.9 PPG, .357 TS% (18.3 PPG, .528 TS%)
Average dropoff: -5.8 PPG, -9.3 TS%
What’s amazing is that when faced Cleveland and LeBron was off the court, they dominated:
The 6 SF’s stats when (Per 36):
LeBron on court: 15.1 PPG, .461 TS%, 3.3 Reb, 3.6 AST-3.4 TOV, -9.4 +/-
LeBron off court: 24.6 PPG, .596 TS%, 5.9 Reb, 2.3 AST-1.8 TOV, +0.9 +/-
That is a 9.5 points per 36 and 13.5 TS% difference. In the playoffs, LeBron continued playing elite man defense. Here are how some of his guys did when LeBron was on the court (per 36 minutes):
Tayshaun Prince: 3.9 PPG, .260 TS%
Joe Johnson: 15.3 PPG, .480 TS%
Marvin Williams: 5.8 PPG, .337 TS%
Dropoff from regular season averages: -7.6 PPG, -18.1 TS%
Defensive stats from Hoopsstats.com for his position:
17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league) (13.2 points per 36 minutes)
41.2 FG% allowed (1st)
15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)
16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)
1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)
+2.8 Defensive RAPM [2nd among qualifying perimeter players (Artest)]
Peak Lebron was a very good man-defender which, paired with big advantages in more valuable defensive attributes(rim-deterrence, help, and orchestration), makes a comparison between the two pretty one-sided unless we...
blindly rely on nostalgic reputation and questionable award selections (or in the case of all-defensive selections, obviously different positional value and competition) to make all our assessments.
If you're going to favor hype over reality, at least understand how award-voting works. All-defensive teams are done positionally. Jordan competes against guards. Lebron competes against forwards. That Jordan was on a few more all-defensive teams vying against vastly worse defenders isn't really a win.
Leadership: Jordan maybe was an ass of a teammate sometimes but he stayed with the Bulls his entire career minus his two years with the Wizards when he was old. You could count on the guy to show up as he played the full 82 games i think 9 times in his career ( its late and im too lazy to look it up but i think its 9).
Whether it's better to share the wealth or stay "loyal" isn't relevant to whose the better leader. And I'm not sure why you're bring up "showing up" for a player who played significantly less minutes over the same period of time:
70sfan wrote:We can go a bit further and calculate average minutes played per year throughout their primes:
1985-98 Jordan: 35887 minutes in 13 seasons - 2760 minutes per season
2004-18 James: 44298 minutes in 15 seasons - 2953 minutes per season
Lebron helped his teams get better players therefore improving their chances to win. Those teammates may not like it, but tampering for an all-time talent like Davis is about as big of an off-court win a franchise can ask for. And let's not gloss over that Wizards stint:
Was he really? On the court he might have been more valuable but if the reports of his destroying the #1 pick in the whole draft Kwame Brown's confidence and getting the team to trade Rip Hamilton for a washed Jerry Stackhouse, I think he was actually a negative for the franchise. He set back the rebuild seriously and didn't push the team successfully anywhere. The front office liked him because he pushed ticket sales but as a fan, I strongly wished he had never decided to come back.
https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-michael-jordan-used-flaming-fagot-as-reference-for-kwame-brown-his-whipping-boy-according-to-si-and-washington-post/
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/sports/pro-basketball-jordan-s-strained-ties-to-wizards-may-be-cut.html
According to one official, Hughes was explicitly told by Jordan to get him the ball if he wanted to play. When Hughes began passing it to Stackhouse as much as to Jordan, he was soon benched. Point guard Tyronn Lue, the official said, obliged and began finding Jordan every time he played. ''He was scared to death of what would happen to him in his career if he didn't,'' the player said of Lue. ''He was always looking at the bench at Michael.''
Late last fall, Richard Hamilton and Jordan got into an ugly shouting match. The two officials said it began when Hamilton told Jordan he was tired of being a ''Jordannaire,'' the term used for Jordan's role players in Chicago. ''Rip was a young, brash guy who threatened the idea of Michael being the guy here,'' the official said. ''He was promptly gotten rid of for Stackhouse.'' A person close to Jordan denied Hamilton was traded because of a personality conflict. He insisted contractual issues led to the Stackhouse deal.
In the season's final weeks, players openly complained about the double standards for Jordan. Promptly dressed and ready to speak with reporters after games, they were forced to wait in the locker room for 15 or 20 minutes while Jordan showered and dressed in a private room.
Jordan's "leadership" probably did more damage to the Wizards than anything Lebron has done, and it doesn't seem Jordan was much different in Chicago.
“I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn’t do something. It wasn’t my fault.”
“They’re not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won’t make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They’re spending all their time chasing this guy.”
“I don’t know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy.” – Michael questioning the Oakley trade
He was very mad when the Bulls fired...Doug Collins, who let Jordan skip practices and try and be Lebron(with significantly less winning). He was upset when the Bulls made good moves to help him win rings, and blamed his teammates when they weren't winning(which lines up with him complaining that all his teammates were coke-heads in the last-dance).
The Bulls ultimately won with Jordan being forced to let other people make decisions, and then when he finally got his chance to do things the way he wanted, he basically set-back a franchise with the same "leadership" we saw him flashing before Phil came to Chicago.
Lebron has his own marks(trading for westbrook, taking an extra year to buy into spo's, is jr really worth 100 mill?), but ultimately, when Lebron tells blatt he doesn't need his system, he goes and beats a 73-win team using "lebron-ball"(meant to denote when lebron does alot at the same time because lebron is good enough at alot to do alot at the same time, not the meme-stereotype people apply to all of Lebron's teams). When he forces a trade for AD(duh) it's a move ultimately aimed at winning and which generally leads to winning. If you want to act like one franchise hoarding the glory is morally superior to 3 franchises getting a share, fine. But as far as winning goes, Lebron's "leadership" is clear.
Klutch: give me Jordan over James all day for the last shot of the game. Make or miss the guy is not afraid to take the shot. Last time i saw James with the ball in his hands with the clock running down in a tied game, he drove to the basket and instead of taking thd shot or getting fouled he passed out to Carmelo for a 3.
Sadly, clutch is not just scoring and Lebron is better at nearly everything else, which is why...
2009 Cavaliers: +39.9
2013 Heat: +33.7
2011 Mavericks: +29.5
2007 Mavericks: +29.0
2006 Clippers: +27.1
2010 Cavaliers: +26.4
1998 Lakers: +26.2
1999 Magic: +25.7
2008 Cavaliers: +24.2
2004 Pacers: +23.4
Looking at Lebron individually:
Highest 4th quarter on court plus/minus from 1997 to 2013:
1. 09 James +265
2. 13 James +242 Pro-rated (Currently at +207)
3. 03 Marbury +220
4. 11 Korver +219
5. 09 Williams +212
6. 02 George +211
7. 04 Garnett +208
8. 11 Bosh +199
The Cavs were +265 (+24.5 per 100 possessions) in the 4th with LeBron on court and -97 (-13.17 per 100) without LeBron in the 4th quarter which gives LeBron a +37.7 plus/minus in the 4th quarter.
4th Quarter:
LeBron averaged 32 Points, 8.4 Rebounds, 7 Assists, .596 TS% per 36 minutes in the 4th quarter. When LeBron was on the court in the 4th, the Cavs had a 121.2 O Rating, 96.6 D rating (+24.6 Net). He had an absurd 44.1 Assist% in the 4th (equivalent to this year’s John Wall assist%).
In the playoffs he averaged 32-10-8, .574 TS%, 113.8 on court O rating, 98.7 D rating in the 4th quarter. His assist% in the 4th was 48% which is right around NBA Assist leader Greivis Vasquez current assist%.
Helio-playmakers like Nash, Lebron, and Magic see their teams improve a bit in the 4th quarter while the Bulls got a little worse. Clutch is not just hitting a higher percentage of your shots at the end. Nor is it just hitting buzzer-beaters(though Lebron now leads in that). It's also when you complete an extremely difficult pass to create ft's for an 80% shooter, and affect possession after possession on the other end.
Lebron has led two finalists(one champion) that never lost with a lead in the 4th(2018/2020), has won every series where the opponent's srs is within 2 point of his(keeping in mind that Lebron has consistently been more valuable in the regular season), and has a winning record as an, on average, massive underdog(again, more valuable regular season player):
f4p wrote:Fun fact, Lebron played 15 toss-up series where the teams were within 2 points of each other. He went 15-0.
...
Incredibly, Lebron was -4.2 as an underdog and still went 7-6, which means he was able to win more than half the time as the equivalent of an 11-12 win underdog.
Lebron is merely 14-2 as a favorite(Mike is 24-0), losing twice after leading 66 and 61 teams with a cast Jordan would struggle to hit 50 win with. The first of which came with Lebron hitting two last-second shots(1 win, 1 loss), going perfect in overtime(loss), to punctuate extremely efficient scoring and creation in the "klutch".
Jordan's big underdog triumph came in 1989, hitting a buzzer-beater shot to squeak by a hobbled 80's variant of the Lebronto Raptors. Maybe if we define "klutch" as winning with an overwhelming talent advantage, or putting up shots, Jordan has an argument, Otherwise, not really.
Jordan has also accomplished more in fewer years.
Only if you cherrypick what counts as "accomplishment". What makes putting up the most points more meaningful than a triple-double? But whatever, at least be consistent. Why are we counting Jordan's expansion era MVP's if we're discounting longevity?
We also really, really start cherrypicking when we get here:
Jordan also was never outplayed by one of his teammates in the finals, or played as poorly as James did in the 2011 finals.
Lebron lost a winnable final in an off-year. But he proceeded to be the best player on either team in the next 7, with 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, and 20 all stacking up to any of MJ's performances via box(and all of them being arguably or clearly ahead(12, 16) when we account for pesky details like defense(12, 13, 15, 16), cast(all of them but 12), coaching(14), running the offense(all of them), quality of creation(all of them), and opponent quality(all of them but 12 and 20).
2011 was still a better season than 1995(50+win help, crushed in 2nd round), which was sandwiched between Jordan being bailed out of an all-time choke in 1993, Jordan quitting in 1994, and Jordan being bailed out of the greatest choke ever in 96(and maybe they lose anyway if Payton is on Jordan from the start).
93-96 is quite easily the worst 4-year stretch in the primes of any of the conventional GOAT candidates, and Jordan's prime was by far the shortest. You can deflect with team success, but that will only get you so far, as even by rings(Kareem wins if we use finals as a tiebreaker, Duncan wins via general winning, Lebron wins with raw totals), he greatly trails Bill who, like Lebron, beat multiple teams, stronger than anyone MJ vanquished, with significantly less help(1969).
Beyond pretending a scoring title is inherently more meaningful than a triple double, or that non-predictive box-aggregates outweigh making teams better, it's quite hard to get Jordan at the top unless you discount what came before while simultaneously pretending basketball peaked in the 90's.
Finally the eye test. Im pretty sure between you and me, im the only one who has watched both careers. There is something to watching a guys career compared to looking up a players stats or watching a game on youtube.
And yet, my claims align with actual results, while yours align with very specific interpretations of slashlines and second-hand opinions.
But by all means, flex your "eye-test" and break out some film.
I'd especially love to see how "watching-the-game" got you to Jordan being a Lebron+ defender when actual film-tracking has his teammate making less mistakes, while being more active at the paint, more active on the perimeter, and more active trying to blitz the other team on the other end(though Grant may have been the MVP there).
Unless of course, "watching his career", was really just watching The Last Dance.
And hey, if you reply, maybe actually respond to at least some of what was argued. This pattern of ignoring what others say, repeating your beliefs(with little to no support), then complaining about "lebron fans" is starting to get old.
obviously I'm exaggerating but if I had to pick one I would go with him
I get the importance of watching a career unfold but You were a teenager for basically his entire career.