Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22
After seeing Kyrie-Harden-KD fail and now they're older?Jdiddy701 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.Jdiddy701 wrote:Any chance we can decline CP3’s contract (eat the 15 million) and sign Kyrie outright? Is that even possible?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kyrie - Booker - KD - Ayton is a no for you?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MrMiyagi wrote:That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.Jdiddy701 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
Can't see the Mavs wanting anything we have (that we'd trade) aside from Ayton. Now if they are losing him for nothing, getting ANYTHING helps, so if they wanted one year of Paul at $30 million with the team option for the following year, that would be the only possibility unless they wanted Payne, Shamet, Craig, Ish, Bazley or some combination of those guys.
Any chance we can decline CP3’s contract (eat the 15 million) and sign Kyrie outright? Is that even possible?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So the Wizards are a good organization and good basketball team because the Bullets won in back in '78?spanishninja wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:People talking about rings making it worth it like we're even going to get one, lmao.bwgood77 wrote:
I don't think the Lakers planned on destroying their team for a few years when they made that trade. In hindsight would they have made a run for someone else like George who wanted LA or another star? Who knows?
The Raptors trade was a no brainer. Masai was smart only giving up DeRozan and Poeltl for a much younger Kawhi. No way he would have given up 4 unprotected picks, and all we did.
One ring is very nice for players and their legacy. Fans can cheer for a night or week and then it's on to next season. Book will be happy with a ring, but will he want to stick around 3 years into his supermax when KD and Paul or gone and he has Ayton and role players? Time will tell.
Is it worth it to people if we lose him?
Would a ring have been satisfactory for people if we had given up Book in the trade even though KD is obviously an upgrade and gave us a better chance with him than with Book?
I assume if it is in this case it would have been if we gave up Book too.
of course nothing is guaranteed, but the longer the league continues its existence, it will look worse and worse for teams that continue to not win even one championship. and as a reminder we are the longest existing team to still not have a ring. that dubious distinction isn't going away until we win one.
bwgood77 wrote:Hitachi77 wrote:Is one championship all it takes to make it the best trade in Suns history? I would say yes.
That's entirely based on what you want out of your team.
Gonna love hearing your excuses when we get bounced round 1 with KD.handsome salary wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Hitachi77 wrote:Is one championship all it takes to make it the best trade in Suns history? I would say yes.
That's entirely based on what you want out of your team.
I want a championship. I've seen enough of the Suns drafts, trades and FA signings mesh well or not work out every season. I've been very entertained and extremely disappointed after 35 years. All I want to see is a championship. This year was going to be another 1st or 2nd round flameout if they didn't add star power. They got to the Finals because of CP3's last hurrah and went out like lambs last year because he's shot. I don't think that DA, Mikal or CJ were pushing them over the finish line once Booker gets doubled.
bwgood77 wrote:Hitachi77 wrote:Is one championship all it takes to make it the best trade in Suns history? I would say yes.
That's entirely based on what you want out of your team. If you are a fan of watching a team you are really vested in, watching players grow, having unity, gradually getting past previous faults, learning from mistakes and get over the hump, maybe. Given they already went further than ever in the playoffs with many of the core playing in their VERY FIRST playoffs, and then the following year had the best team in regular season history, but Paul's game drastically changed in the Mavs series causing us to default, I was never of the opinion of "this team will never win anything" given this very young team had just started to crack success after years and were making noise in the playoffs.
If you are a fan of winning a championship at all costs, even if it's watching a team with mostly players you haven't been vested in at all (KD will have played in less than 10 Suns game before the playoffs), winning a championship is nice, but to me, would feel a little more hollow.
I know most view sports this way in this day and age though, so if we do happen to win, I can see that view. I do think our chances are now slightly better to win one if healthy (though our chances of staying healthy are far worse), this year and next (but not THAT much better, especially as much as Bridges had grown), but our overall chances at winning more championships over the next 10 years or being more successful overall being competitive during that time will go way down. I know some will assume we will find some other star come 26 or 27, but that's rare in the grand scheme.
Also, I don't know if people realize, when you win a championship, it's not like you are done...that nothing matters. All that comes next is you want/need to win another one and it's even MORE important..that is truly your measuring stick.
I'd MUCH rather watch an entertaining group of young men I've watched grow compete and have a chance every year for the next decade than it be like the DBacks winning a championship in 2000 and mostly sucking since then (or even just not being very good for awhile).
We had built the best core we had since 2004...almost 20 years. But now rely on one player to be healthy, one who has been injured far more often than not over the past 4 years.
The reason our odds shot up is because Vegas was anticipating more action on the Suns and didn't want to be on the hook for a large payout.Hitachi77 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Hitachi77 wrote:Is one championship all it takes to make it the best trade in Suns history? I would say yes.
That's entirely based on what you want out of your team. If you are a fan of watching a team you are really vested in, watching players grow, having unity, gradually getting past previous faults, learning from mistakes and get over the hump, maybe. Given they already went further than ever in the playoffs with many of the core playing in their VERY FIRST playoffs, and then the following year had the best team in regular season history, but Paul's game drastically changed in the Mavs series causing us to default, I was never of the opinion of "this team will never win anything" given this very young team had just started to crack success after years and were making noise in the playoffs.
If you are a fan of winning a championship at all costs, even if it's watching a team with mostly players you haven't been vested in at all (KD will have played in less than 10 Suns game before the playoffs), winning a championship is nice, but to me, would feel a little more hollow.
I know most view sports this way in this day and age though, so if we do happen to win, I can see that view. I do think our chances are now slightly better to win one if healthy (though our chances of staying healthy are far worse), this year and next (but not THAT much better, especially as much as Bridges had grown), but our overall chances at winning more championships over the next 10 years or being more successful overall being competitive during that time will go way down. I know some will assume we will find some other star come 26 or 27, but that's rare in the grand scheme.
Also, I don't know if people realize, when you win a championship, it's not like you are done...that nothing matters. All that comes next is you want/need to win another one and it's even MORE important..that is truly your measuring stick.
I'd MUCH rather watch an entertaining group of young men I've watched grow compete and have a chance every year for the next decade than it be like the DBacks winning a championship in 2000 and mostly sucking since then (or even just not being very good for awhile).
We had built the best core we had since 2004...almost 20 years. But now rely on one player to be healthy, one who has been injured far more often than not over the past 4 years.
I’ll admit, I am championship hungry. Thinking about the 2007 bs Amare / Diaw suspensions (which of course Adam Silver basically reversed this “rule” that David Stern acted like he could do nothing about).
The 2010 Artest buzzer beater after Kobe airball. Then having a 9 point lead in the 4th quarter of game 4 of the finals, that close to being up 3-1. There’s more examples, but these types of things makes it feel like a championship curse which I would like to reverse as soon as possible.
But to add to that, last year’s game 7 loss was maybe the most shocking I have had as a fan of any sport. You can’t just call it bad luck. Part of it is CP3’s sharp decline out of nowhere, but there has to be more to it. Something mental with this team with everything on the line. Another flameout like that would be hard to take (not saying it would happen).
After last year, I thought we needed major changes. We started this year off well and hope opened up again, then injuries happened and we were kind of left in limbo and really have no idea what the team would have been capable of.
I do disagree with one point though, I don’t think a healthy KD makes us only “slightly” more likely to win a title. Factoring in injuries sure, but this guy is incredible when healthy, a top 10 player ever. There’s a reason our odds to win the championship shot way up.
bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.Jdiddy701 wrote:Any chance we can decline CP3’s contract (eat the 15 million) and sign Kyrie outright? Is that even possible?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We are $42 million over the cap next year, not even including Craig, Okogie, Bazley, Landale, any of the minimums or other guys we keep.
If we cut Paul and cut ALL those guys loose, we are STILL $27 million over. If we traded Ayton just for cap space, cut Paul, didn't bring back Craig, Okogie or any expiring, we would still only be like $5 million under the cap.
We have capped ourselves out for the foreseeable future even when Paul is gone. It will be Book, KD, Ayton (or what we trade him for) , anyone we re-sign from bird rights like Craig and Okogie, Ish, maybe Bazley, a tax MLE guy (like $7 million) and a 2nd rounder this year.
Then we get a first rounder in 24. Even with just all those guys and spending exceptions, we are probably in the tax.
So not only can we not sign Kyrie, but no one getting paid over like $7 million.
MrMiyagi wrote:So the Wizards are a good organization and good basketball team because the Bullets won in back in '78?spanishninja wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:People talking about rings making it worth it like we're even going to get one, lmao.
of course nothing is guaranteed, but the longer the league continues its existence, it will look worse and worse for teams that continue to not win even one championship. and as a reminder we are the longest existing team to still not have a ring. that dubious distinction isn't going away until we win one.
MrMiyagi wrote:The reason our odds shot up is because Vegas was anticipating more action on the Suns and didn't want to be on the hook for a large payout.Hitachi77 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
That's entirely based on what you want out of your team. If you are a fan of watching a team you are really vested in, watching players grow, having unity, gradually getting past previous faults, learning from mistakes and get over the hump, maybe. Given they already went further than ever in the playoffs with many of the core playing in their VERY FIRST playoffs, and then the following year had the best team in regular season history, but Paul's game drastically changed in the Mavs series causing us to default, I was never of the opinion of "this team will never win anything" given this very young team had just started to crack success after years and were making noise in the playoffs.
If you are a fan of winning a championship at all costs, even if it's watching a team with mostly players you haven't been vested in at all (KD will have played in less than 10 Suns game before the playoffs), winning a championship is nice, but to me, would feel a little more hollow.
I know most view sports this way in this day and age though, so if we do happen to win, I can see that view. I do think our chances are now slightly better to win one if healthy (though our chances of staying healthy are far worse), this year and next (but not THAT much better, especially as much as Bridges had grown), but our overall chances at winning more championships over the next 10 years or being more successful overall being competitive during that time will go way down. I know some will assume we will find some other star come 26 or 27, but that's rare in the grand scheme.
Also, I don't know if people realize, when you win a championship, it's not like you are done...that nothing matters. All that comes next is you want/need to win another one and it's even MORE important..that is truly your measuring stick.
I'd MUCH rather watch an entertaining group of young men I've watched grow compete and have a chance every year for the next decade than it be like the DBacks winning a championship in 2000 and mostly sucking since then (or even just not being very good for awhile).
We had built the best core we had since 2004...almost 20 years. But now rely on one player to be healthy, one who has been injured far more often than not over the past 4 years.
I’ll admit, I am championship hungry. Thinking about the 2007 bs Amare / Diaw suspensions (which of course Adam Silver basically reversed this “rule” that David Stern acted like he could do nothing about).
The 2010 Artest buzzer beater after Kobe airball. Then having a 9 point lead in the 4th quarter of game 4 of the finals, that close to being up 3-1. There’s more examples, but these types of things makes it feel like a championship curse which I would like to reverse as soon as possible.
But to add to that, last year’s game 7 loss was maybe the most shocking I have had as a fan of any sport. You can’t just call it bad luck. Part of it is CP3’s sharp decline out of nowhere, but there has to be more to it. Something mental with this team with everything on the line. Another flameout like that would be hard to take (not saying it would happen).
After last year, I thought we needed major changes. We started this year off well and hope opened up again, then injuries happened and we were kind of left in limbo and really have no idea what the team would have been capable of.
I do disagree with one point though, I don’t think a healthy KD makes us only “slightly” more likely to win a title. Factoring in injuries sure, but this guy is incredible when healthy, a top 10 player ever. There’s a reason our odds to win the championship shot way up.
MrMiyagi wrote:So the Wizards are a good organization and good basketball team because the Bullets won in back in '78?spanishninja wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:People talking about rings making it worth it like we're even going to get one, lmao.
of course nothing is guaranteed, but the longer the league continues its existence, it will look worse and worse for teams that continue to not win even one championship. and as a reminder we are the longest existing team to still not have a ring. that dubious distinction isn't going away until we win one.
Jdiddy701 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.
We are $42 million over the cap next year, not even including Craig, Okogie, Bazley, Landale, any of the minimums or other guys we keep.
If we cut Paul and cut ALL those guys loose, we are STILL $27 million over. If we traded Ayton just for cap space, cut Paul, didn't bring back Craig, Okogie or any expiring, we would still only be like $5 million under the cap.
We have capped ourselves out for the foreseeable future even when Paul is gone. It will be Book, KD, Ayton (or what we trade him for) , anyone we re-sign from bird rights like Craig and Okogie, Ish, maybe Bazley, a tax MLE guy (like $7 million) and a 2nd rounder this year.
Then we get a first rounder in 24. Even with just all those guys and spending exceptions, we are probably in the tax.
So not only can we not sign Kyrie, but no one getting paid over like $7 million.
Thanks for that info. Sounds like we would have to offer DA, if we were to get Kyrie. I think that’s a deal James Jones does. The Mavs would definitely do it. I just do not see Kyrie extending in Dallas. Something tells me that KD and Kyrie want to prove to Brooklyn that those two can win together. That motivation will only help us.
What’s pretty frustrating is that a trio of Book-KD-Ayton should be very good! Y’all can call me a hater all you want but the reason we may not be as good as we should be is because of Ayton. I know what I’m getting out of Book, I know what I’m getting out of KD (if he plays), I have no idea what I’m getting out of DA. Our team success has always relied on Ayton’s potential.
We have only seen three games of DA with KD, maybe it will be great, we just have to wait and see.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bwgood77 wrote:Jdiddy701 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
We are $42 million over the cap next year, not even including Craig, Okogie, Bazley, Landale, any of the minimums or other guys we keep.
If we cut Paul and cut ALL those guys loose, we are STILL $27 million over. If we traded Ayton just for cap space, cut Paul, didn't bring back Craig, Okogie or any expiring, we would still only be like $5 million under the cap.
We have capped ourselves out for the foreseeable future even when Paul is gone. It will be Book, KD, Ayton (or what we trade him for) , anyone we re-sign from bird rights like Craig and Okogie, Ish, maybe Bazley, a tax MLE guy (like $7 million) and a 2nd rounder this year.
Then we get a first rounder in 24. Even with just all those guys and spending exceptions, we are probably in the tax.
So not only can we not sign Kyrie, but no one getting paid over like $7 million.
Thanks for that info. Sounds like we would have to offer DA, if we were to get Kyrie. I think that’s a deal James Jones does. The Mavs would definitely do it. I just do not see Kyrie extending in Dallas. Something tells me that KD and Kyrie want to prove to Brooklyn that those two can win together. That motivation will only help us.
What’s pretty frustrating is that a trio of Book-KD-Ayton should be very good! Y’all can call me a hater all you want but the reason we may not be as good as we should be is because of Ayton. I know what I’m getting out of Book, I know what I’m getting out of KD (if he plays), I have no idea what I’m getting out of DA. Our team success has always relied on Ayton’s potential.
We have only seen three games of DA with KD, maybe it will be great, we just have to wait and see.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One thing about DA this season rarely mentioned is that he is the one player left who has played with the MOST different mish mashes of lineups. I have always said that a team who has consistency, cohesion, unity, and gets more used to playing together over time is great. That is why we kept getting better with Book, Bridges, the Cams, Ayton, etc, then with Paul, him and Book struggled early playing together but soon got past that and then we got better and better. We lost to a more experienced team in the finals who had a superstar getting to the line and who changed their lineup to go big when they realized we only had Ayton (who had played well early in the series). So when they played Giannis and Lopez with a lot of Portis, and we had an injured Saric and had to rely on Kaminsky, the series became tougher.
Then we simply had a bad series for the last 5 games last year, which was obviously primarily because of Paul and his failure to maintain his midrange game, defend, not foul, limit turnovers, etc. I always thought he was injured, given he fouled out in one game, had more turnovers than assists in one, and then got picked on on defense....on top of not having his midrange game. Outside of those 5 games we got better and better for 2 years straight while not realizing the full potential of Bridges and Cam yet. I never bought into the "we will never win with this crew" given we were a young team only getting better who blew a series primarily because of Paul,at least in my opinion.
Back to DA, the effort doesn't appear to always be there but the consistency in lineups and teammates he has played with, how often he get the ball,players he has to rely on defensive switches with, whether everyone in lineups with 3rd stringers, knows where to be, etc, has been all over the place. When you are playing with different players every game, then getting healthy, then making a major trade losing the ONE guy you did play most of your games with, then not having Mikal or Cam (or KD), then having KD for a few games, then not having him, etc. That makes things a hell of a lot more difficult.
I think we would make the Kyrie trade too. It would make us better if everyone played, though I imagine our rebounding and play from bigs would suffer.
Even when Ayton doesn't score much or shoot much, his gravity really does help things as well. There are constantly guys cheating way off their men to stay close to him. Unfortunately now it's not Bridges and Cam getting the open shots, but Okogie and Craig.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Jdiddy701 wrote:Thanks for that info. Sounds like we would have to offer DA, if we were to get Kyrie. I think that’s a deal James Jones does. The Mavs would definitely do it. I just do not see Kyrie extending in Dallas. Something tells me that KD and Kyrie want to prove to Brooklyn that those two can win together. That motivation will only help us.
What’s pretty frustrating is that a trio of Book-KD-Ayton should be very good! Y’all can call me a hater all you want but the reason we may not be as good as we should be is because of Ayton. I know what I’m getting out of Book, I know what I’m getting out of KD (if he plays), I have no idea what I’m getting out of DA. Our team success has always relied on Ayton’s potential.
We have only seen three games of DA with KD, maybe it will be great, we just have to wait and see.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One thing about DA this season rarely mentioned is that he is the one player left who has played with the MOST different mish mashes of lineups. I have always said that a team who has consistency, cohesion, unity, and gets more used to playing together over time is great. That is why we kept getting better with Book, Bridges, the Cams, Ayton, etc, then with Paul, him and Book struggled early playing together but soon got past that and then we got better and better. We lost to a more experienced team in the finals who had a superstar getting to the line and who changed their lineup to go big when they realized we only had Ayton (who had played well early in the series). So when they played Giannis and Lopez with a lot of Portis, and we had an injured Saric and had to rely on Kaminsky, the series became tougher.
Then we simply had a bad series for the last 5 games last year, which was obviously primarily because of Paul and his failure to maintain his midrange game, defend, not foul, limit turnovers, etc. I always thought he was injured, given he fouled out in one game, had more turnovers than assists in one, and then got picked on on defense....on top of not having his midrange game. Outside of those 5 games we got better and better for 2 years straight while not realizing the full potential of Bridges and Cam yet. I never bought into the "we will never win with this crew" given we were a young team only getting better who blew a series primarily because of Paul,at least in my opinion.
Back to DA, the effort doesn't appear to always be there but the consistency in lineups and teammates he has played with, how often he get the ball,players he has to rely on defensive switches with, whether everyone in lineups with 3rd stringers, knows where to be, etc, has been all over the place. When you are playing with different players every game, then getting healthy, then making a major trade losing the ONE guy you did play most of your games with, then not having Mikal or Cam (or KD), then having KD for a few games, then not having him, etc. That makes things a hell of a lot more difficult.
I think we would make the Kyrie trade too. It would make us better if everyone played, though I imagine our rebounding and play from bigs would suffer.
Even when Ayton doesn't score much or shoot much, his gravity really does help things as well. There are constantly guys cheating way off their men to stay close to him. Unfortunately now it's not Bridges and Cam getting the open shots, but Okogie and Craig.
I don't expect a happy ending if we trade DA for Kyrie. We're all going to wonder how Ishbia turned a perennial contender into the 2022 Brooklyn Nets.
bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:So the Wizards are a good organization and good basketball team because the Bullets won in back in '78?spanishninja wrote:
of course nothing is guaranteed, but the longer the league continues its existence, it will look worse and worse for teams that continue to not win even one championship. and as a reminder we are the longest existing team to still not have a ring. that dubious distinction isn't going away until we win one.
Who cares if we haven't won one in hindsight? Do people really care now that we didn't win one in the 70s? Sure it would have been nice had we won with KJ or with Nash or the last two years.
But guess what...that wouldn't change one person complaining about our team now (of the ones complaining). I doubt anyone would be saying "I don't really care if we win a championship right now...we won one in 2007. Who really cares what happens. We already got over that hurdle."
I focus on the present but more importantly how you are set up for the present AND the future...like the smarter GMs/owners do.
spanishninja wrote:bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:So the Wizards are a good organization and good basketball team because the Bullets won in back in '78?
Who cares if we haven't won one in hindsight? Do people really care now that we didn't win one in the 70s? Sure it would have been nice had we won with KJ or with Nash or the last two years.
But guess what...that wouldn't change one person complaining about our team now (of the ones complaining). I doubt anyone would be saying "I don't really care if we win a championship right now...we won one in 2007. Who really cares what happens. We already got over that hurdle."
I focus on the present but more importantly how you are set up for the present AND the future...like the smarter GMs/owners do.
dude, it seems like every season this bit of trivia gets brought up. and every time it gets brought up, we look like **** ****.
spanishninja wrote:bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:So the Wizards are a good organization and good basketball team because the Bullets won in back in '78?
Who cares if we haven't won one in hindsight? Do people really care now that we didn't win one in the 70s? Sure it would have been nice had we won with KJ or with Nash or the last two years.
But guess what...that wouldn't change one person complaining about our team now (of the ones complaining). I doubt anyone would be saying "I don't really care if we win a championship right now...we won one in 2007. Who really cares what happens. We already got over that hurdle."
I focus on the present but more importantly how you are set up for the present AND the future...like the smarter GMs/owners do.
dude, it seems like every season this bit of trivia gets brought up. and every time it gets brought up, we look like **** ****.