Your unpopular takes? (PC Board Edition)

[dygaction]

I literally posted full game in that thread.

Did not change the facts that I posted based on the clip I watched earlier, and I don't think it was his worst game.

One may feel, though, that it undermines "full games are not available" and reiterates the point in the post prior that your dataset might not be large enough, no?

Even with the full game, you can hardly argue a 4th quarter with fumble hands, bad passing, and subpar defense leading to a loss something worthy to justify as a passable game for an ATG center. If it were from Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, or KAT, we may argue otherwise.

[FlyingScotsman]

Welcome Scotsman

Appreciate it mate

[70sFan]

Did not change the facts that I posted based on the clip I watched earlier, and I don't think it was his worst game.

One may feel, though, that it undermines "full games are not available" and reiterates the point in the post prior that your dataset might not be large enough, no?

Even with the full game, you can hardly argue a 4th quarter with fumble hands, bad passing, and subpar defense leading to a loss something worthy to justify as a passable game for an ATG center. If it were from Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, or KAT, we may argue otherwise.

Have you ever done the same thing for the other GOAT players?

[Owly]

Did not change the facts that I posted based on the clip I watched earlier, and I don't think it was his worst game.

One may feel, though, that it undermines "full games are not available" and reiterates the point in the post prior that your dataset might not be large enough, no?

Even with the full game, you can hardly argue a 4th quarter with fumble hands, bad passing, and subpar defense leading to a loss something worthy to justify as a passable game for an ATG center. If it were from Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, or KAT, we may argue otherwise.

I don't understand "Even with the full game, you can hardly argue a 4th quarter ..." as a structure ... is the analysis based on the full game or just a quarter.

I think ... and per the above I really can't be sure ... there is no meaning to everything before the comma, and so my response, whilst I haven't made any claim on the game (and without assessing the accuracy of your summary of as applied to this particular case, but rather talking more conceptually), would be: "it rather depends on how the other three quarters went". If one were worth 5 points above an average starting center in each of the first 3 quarters, and 5 below in the final one would have you as net +10 over what an average starting center would give. Plus 10 points (if sustained) is huge at team level, never mind an individual one. Now such numbers are conjured up rather than based on the particular game, but should be sufficient to show that watching a quarter isn't enough to evaluate even a game, never mind "his game".

[dygaction]

One may feel, though, that it undermines "full games are not available" and reiterates the point in the post prior that your dataset might not be large enough, no?

Even with the full game, you can hardly argue a 4th quarter with fumble hands, bad passing, and subpar defense leading to a loss something worthy to justify as a passable game for an ATG center. If it were from Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, or KAT, we may argue otherwise.

Have you ever done the same thing for the other GOAT players?

Sure why not? Jordan had bad games, LeBron had bad games, the player I like, Dirk, had first round exit in his MVP season... Luka's defense has been insufferable this season...

[70sFan]

Even with the full game, you can hardly argue a 4th quarter with fumble hands, bad passing, and subpar defense leading to a loss something worthy to justify as a passable game for an ATG center. If it were from Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, or KAT, we may argue otherwise.

Have you ever done the same thing for the other GOAT players?

Sure why not? Jordan had bad games, LeBron had bad games, the player I like, Dirk, had first round exit in his MVP season... Luka's defense has been insufferable this season...

Well, you didn't try to use such moments to say that Jordan wasn't GOAT level player at his peak.

[dygaction]

Have you ever done the same thing for the other GOAT players?

Sure why not? Jordan had bad games, LeBron had bad games, the player I like, Dirk, had first round exit in his MVP season... Luka's defense has been insufferable this season...

Well, you didn't try to use such moments to say that Jordan wasn't GOAT level player at his peak.

If Jordan performed at that level and team lost, of course I would not argue it was GOAT level. Same reason I would not argue for Jordan 88 or LeBron 09 for their goat seasons as they do have other better years that lead to championships.

If you want to prop KAJ, wouldn't it best to say that was his bad performance? Even a bad performance was that good, so that he is a GOAT level player?

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Larry Bird's three point shooting is overrated and he'd shoot a lower percentage today.

My counter argument here would be there are more open 3s generated in this era.

Second point is it’s better to compare a person shooting to lg average during their era.

I prefer to read and learn than to participate on this subforum, because I know I'm out of my depth here.

But isn't there an argument to be made that 3s were always more open in Bird's era than today, given how three pointers were rarely defended back then?

Why you think 3s were rarely defended? Some analytic website

Think it's opposite . Style of play was much different. Offensive schemes dramatically improved. 80s basketball pretty iso/ post heavy. Defensively in the 80s there was not any legal zone defense. You generally stuck with on your man. Now it's rare you see a play that doesn't involve pick and roll. Defenses have to rotate often.

[Salieri]

My counter argument here would be there are more open 3s generated in this era.

Second point is it’s better to compare a person shooting to lg average during their era.

I prefer to read and learn than to participate on this subforum, because I know I'm out of my depth here.

But isn't there an argument to be made that 3s were always more open in Bird's era than today, given how three pointers were rarely defended back then?

Why you think 3s were rarely defended? Some analytic website

Think it's opposite . Style of play was much different. Offensive schemes dramatically improved. 80s basketball pretty iso/ post heavy. Defensively in the 80s there was not any legal zone defense. You generally stuck with on your man. Now it's rare you see a play that doesn't involve pick and roll. Defenses have to rotate often.

Why do I think 3s were rarely defended? IMHO, because coaches and players didn't consider 3s a main weapon worthy of gameplanning around. 2 factors for this: because analytics hadn't kicked in yet and because players weren't training long distance bombing, since getting closer to the basket was a much more favored skill.

I understand what you're saying about staying with your man, and I know man defense was more important than team D. But the way I see it, if a player was standing outside the 3 line, his defender focused on covering pass lines and/or driving lanes much more than on defending a shot that was considered bad and discouraged by coaches in general. This means every team was OK giving up a "bad shot", hence the badly defended shots from there.

This, by the way, is a strategy that is still sound nowadays. The problem from a tactical standpoint wasn't giving up a bad shot, but considering the 3 one of those. And even that could be debated, since very few players could pose a legit threat from downtown.

P.S.: This is the second time in so many days that I have to reply to a snide remark on my post disguised as an attack on the forum. First of all, I said I am out of my depth when I participate in the PC subforum, so it's no surprise that my post didn't impress you. And second, if you don't like the contents of the board, you as a poster have a hand in changing it.

[OhayoKD]

Sure why not? Jordan had bad games, LeBron had bad games, the player I like, Dirk, had first round exit in his MVP season... Luka's defense has been insufferable this season...

Well, you didn't try to use such moments to say that Jordan wasn't GOAT level player at his peak.

If Jordan performed at that level and team lost, of course I would not argue it was GOAT level. Same reason I would not argue for Jordan 88 or LeBron 09 for their goat seasons as they do have other better years that lead to championships.

If you want to prop KAJ, wouldn't it best to say that was his bad performance? Even a bad performance was that good, so that he is a GOAT level player?

There are multiple championship runs that don't have a bad consecutive 7 quarter stretch if this is our criteria. Even setting aside that the game you took 5 minutes from would have probably been one of Jordan's best going by 70's tracking

[dygaction]

Well, you didn't try to use such moments to say that Jordan wasn't GOAT level player at his peak.

If Jordan performed at that level and team lost, of course I would not argue it was GOAT level. Same reason I would not argue for Jordan 88 or LeBron 09 for their goat seasons as they do have other better years that lead to championships.

If you want to prop KAJ, wouldn't it best to say that was his bad performance? Even a bad performance was that good, so that he is a GOAT level player?

There are multiple championship runs that don't have a bad consecutive 7 quarter stretch if this is our criteria. Even setting aside that the game you took 5 minutes from would have probably been one of Jordan's best going by 70's tracking

What? I hope you more or less believe what you say...

Back to the quarters, it is ok to have 24 bad quarters in a 7-game series as long as your four good ones can get 4 wins.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Kobe top 5 I guess lol

[70sFan]

If Jordan performed at that level and team lost, of course I would not argue it was GOAT level.

And what if Jordan performer at that level and his team won?

[OhayoKD]

If Jordan performed at that level and team lost, of course I would not argue it was GOAT level. Same reason I would not argue for Jordan 88 or LeBron 09 for their goat seasons as they do have other better years that lead to championships.

If you want to prop KAJ, wouldn't it best to say that was his bad performance? Even a bad performance was that good, so that he is a GOAT level player?

There are multiple championship runs that don't have a bad consecutive 7 quarter stretch if this is our criteria. Even setting aside that the game you took 5 minutes from would have probably been one of Jordan's best going by 70's tracking

What? I hope you more or less believe what you say...

Back to the quarters, it is ok to have 24 bad quarters in a 7-game series as long as your four good ones can get 4 wins.

*best games

[penbeast0]

Some unpopular takes:

The last 5 years are not among my favorite basketball years aesthetically. I dislike the rules allowing offensive players to constantly walk, carry the ball, and jump into defenders. I also dislike the 3 being spammed to the degree that it is. I would like to see post play return.

Bill Russell was better than Michael Jordan at team basketball.

Bob Lanier was not a good defensive center.

[ShaqAttac]

maybe mikan should be top 2

[Salieri]

Bill Russell was better than Michael Jordan at team basketball.

I know this is an unpopular take, but I sincerely believe it shouldn't be.

The ultimate winner in this sport didn't outshine other all-timers thanks to his otherworldly offensive stats or impact, in fact that's an argument that's used pretty often to lower him in GOAT lists (subpar offense). But that means he must have been better than anyone else at making his team win, which is just one way of saying "better at team ball". That leadership, together with his unbeaten deffensive prowess, are the tools he used to become the winningest player (by far) in the history of basketball. It has to count for something.

Plus, I am not a member of the Jordan Church, where the first commandment is that Jordan was the best ever at literally everything. He was surpassed many times at many skills, this being one of them. It's not a controversial take, and it certainly shouldn't be unpopular.

[TheGOATRises007]

Oh I've got another good unpopular one.

Warriors would have beat Cleveland in 2017 even if KD never joined

That's not unpopular, but it depends who's in place of KD.

The 2017 Cavs(playoff form) are one of the best teams ever.

[VanWest82]

Celtics drop in defense from 69 to 70 had as much to do with the fact they didn't even attempt to replace Russell as whatever his defensive impact actually was at that point a la 2011 Cavs. This is further evidenced by Celtics climbing right back to #3 defense in 71 with a rookie Cowen.

[penbeast0]

maybe mikan should be top 2

He has more of an argument than many other higher rated players; just the obstacles for him to overcome . . . racially limited NBA, pre-shot clock, before even the oldest of us saw much basketball, lack of game film, etc. . . are pretty severe so it's a heavy slog if you want to argue that.