Most Overrated Player in the Top 10

[nikster]

This is to the Ohayokd kid. Believe what you want man but Jordan was better offensively, better defensively, more of a leader, and way way more Klutch. And despite what you say Jordan was/is the better basketball player. Im 47 so yes i watched his career and not just the last dance. Surveys with nba fans who are old enough to have watched both careers favor Jordan by a wide margin in the Jordan/James debate. I would respect your opinion a little more if you were actually old enough to have watched his career. Im guessing you are about 20. Funny how someone can turn his complete failure in 2011 against my Mavs in the finals as a win. What you did was what i call polishing a terd. James is your GOAT and thats fine. But Jordan is the greatest player i have ever seen and none of your mumbo jumbo/entire page remarks is gonna change that. The eye test of watching both players in their careers is all i need.

So you were 9 years old when he was drafted? I get the importance of watching a career unfold but You were a teenager for basically his entire career.
I'm sure you saw tons of footage, had extensive basketball knowledge, were critically examining his play, didn't get caught up in the hype and marketing, and aren't at all nolsatgic about that period.

I started watching the nba when I was 12 in 87. First game i watched was Boston and Atlanta on CBS on a Sunday. Bird was my favorite player growing up. My team was the Mavs but i thought Bird was the best player in the league back then. So i missed Jordans first few years. You caught me kid.

and were a teenager for basically his entire career. And you think thats enough to be so superior to those who disagree that you just ignore well made points with "I watched him and know hes the best at everything"

[jokeboy86]

Duncan is by far the most overrated Top 10 player. Nobody had him any where close to that high when he was playing. He was slightly ahead of Dirk and Garnett during the period but not miles better. The combo of arguably the best coach in the NBA with a couple of great complimentary players elevated his status to higher than it should have been IMO. Like Russell, he was the beneficiary of some extraordinarily good circumstances.

You must be young because what are you talking about no one had him that high when he was playing? By his 3rd ring people were already saying he’s the best power forward of all time so if he’s the best at his position why would he not automatically make the top 10? And its always funny when people say Duncan had Pop, conveniently forgetting that Pop had little to no pedigree before Duncan and meanwhile Duncan was 2x All American and national college player of the year entering the league. And what all time great hasnt had great complimentary players on their title teams lol. What an odd post.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

[MavsDirk41]

So you were 9 years old when he was drafted? I get the importance of watching a career unfold but You were a teenager for basically his entire career.
I'm sure you saw tons of footage, had extensive basketball knowledge, were critically examining his play, didn't get caught up in the hype and marketing, and aren't at all nolsatgic about that period.

I started watching the nba when I was 12 in 87. First game i watched was Boston and Atlanta on CBS on a Sunday. Bird was my favorite player growing up. My team was the Mavs but i thought Bird was the best player in the league back then. So i missed Jordans first few years. You caught me kid.

and were a teenager for basically his entire career. And you think thats enough to be so superior to those who disagree that you just ignore well made points with "I watched him and know hes the best at everything"

So me watching Jordan when i was a teenager has less merit than someone not watching Jordan in the late 80s and 90s??? What are you talking about?? So nobody who thinks Jordan is the superior player to James makes valid points??? Lol go back a page or so and i explained why i think he is superior player to James. If you dont agree then ok, have your own opinion man. Do you think everything that you read on here is the gospel??? The truth is you young guys cant help it when people disagree with yall about lebron james. Just get over yourself kid.

[MavsDirk41]

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

Give me peak Bird for his ballhandling, playmaking, and shooting for that team. Plus Bird was Klutch as hell…Bird is underrated on here cause his Peak was short compared to other greats.

[Mean_Streets]

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

Give me peak Bird for his ballhandling, playmaking, and shooting for that team. Plus Bird was Klutch as hell…Bird is underrated on here cause his Peak was short compared to other greats.

As great as Bird was, one of my favorites ever, he wasn't that much of a ball-handler.

[MavsDirk41]

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

Give me peak Bird for his ballhandling, playmaking, and shooting for that team. Plus Bird was Klutch as hell…Bird is underrated on here cause his Peak was short compared to other greats.

As great as Bird was, one of my favorites ever, he wasn't that much of a ball-handler.

He wasnt John Stockton for sure but dude had decent handles for a big slow dude

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

Give me peak Bird for his ballhandling, playmaking, and shooting for that team. Plus Bird was Klutch as hell…Bird is underrated on here cause his Peak was short compared to other greats.

As great as Bird was, one of my favorites ever, he wasn't that much of a ball-handler.

I think Bird was a better ball handler than Jokic. I would not want to play Jokic without a point guard. I love what Jokic does and Jokic can be the assistant point guard but Jokic can’t replace the point guard.

Bird’s dribble looked like a 3/4 tweeners dribble when he dribbled. He was really a power forward. Doncic is a better dribbler than Bird. You can’t turn Bird into a point guard even though Bird was a better passer and creator than most point guards. point guards must be able to dribble while being hounded. The quick defenders on Bird like Cooper and Pressey could force Bird to end his dribble but they were vulnerable to Bird posting them up.

[E-Balla]

Sadly, offense isn't only scoring. Even early on, Lebron was a much better passer and at 24 we see Lebron matching 90/91 Jordan's efficiency/scoring/turnover economy in the playoffs(while creating much more) despite being the primary ball-handler(Jordan was a secondary ball-handler post-triangle), being the primary orchestrator(Pippen told people where to go for the triangle), and facing significantly more defensive attention(Deferring to Pippen/Illegal d led to Jordan being doubled very little and fairly late). Mind you, that was an improvement on a 66-win worthy base in 2009(in similar circumstances Jordan's bulls topped out at 50).

Few things here:

- Yes other teammates took over responsibilities in place of MJ because they were better suited for them. It also led to more team success and the most dominant stretch of any franchise since Russell's Celtics. Tim Duncan also let teammates take over and had the most dominant stretch since MJ. Before MJ it was Magic who was the most successful since Russell, he also delegated tasks. Historically this is the most consistent recipe for success.

- When discussing illegal defenses why do we consistently overlook what MJ did in his 3rd career? I understand we like to forget those years but a well post prime MJ coming off a 4 year retirement was a top 15ish offensive player still. Not amazing, but enough for him to still be a net positive while being absolutely terrible defensively. The Wizards after the trade deadline were a -7 squad in 2001, they added MJ, rookie Kwame Brown (a bonafide scrub), Ty Lue (a bench shooter that didn't even crack the rotation in LA and only got over 20 MPG on teams that were bottom 5 offenses his whole career IIRC), rookie Brendan Haywood (good player and I think one of 3 players to play with MJ and Bron along side Stack and Hughes but maybe I'm wrong), and Etan Thomas (career bench warmer). They jumped to a -2 if I'm being generous with my rounding. And that's with MJ, Rip, and Laettner missing at least quarter of the season each. MJ was by far the biggest driving factor behind their +3 jump on offense (in only 75% of the season). They had a 100.7 ORTG without him and a 107.7 with him according to pbpstats.

- Remember tons of perimeter players played both before and after they removed illegal defenses and it made little difference to their overall offensive production meanwhile the two biggest single season ORTG jumps ever happened over the summer of 1978 and the summer of 2004 aka both times the NBA started limiting handchecking. Sure MJ didn't have as much help, but he had a much harder time beating his defender/getting the edge on them... Or at least he would've if he wasn't one of the most explosive players ever.

Lebron led a +5 offense at the age of 20(full-strength) after joining a 17-win team, losing his best teammate, and playing without 3-point specialists(in a league where that was a bigger disadvantage).

Sounds good. In reality here's the truth:

- At age 20 means two years after they were a 17 win team. They had a much different squad. How many minutes did legendary tank commander Ricky Davis, Darius Miles, Dajuan Wagner, etc. play in 05 for Cleveland? Which season are you talking about exactly and who are you accounting for when you say full strength? Is it after they made all those trades at the deadline (including dumping the tank commander) or something else?

- He never lost the best player on the 03 Cavs, Z. The guy who made an ASG in 03 and 05.

- Shooting was less of a disadvantage back then. Tons of decent offenses had only 1 or 2 shooters on the roster at the time. The Nuggets and Pistons for example. Remember we're talking about teams taking like 10-20 3s a game not 30-40+.

"More dynamic/consistent" offensive player MJ was stuck at +1 until the triangle allowed him to switch from failing to do everything Lebron can(there's more to offense than ppg/scoring titles), to succeeding in a significantly more limited role(secondary ball-handler, not the orchestrator, co-creator).

Hmm... Interesting how being at full strength doesn't seem to matter. Well if you do decide it matters again in 29 games with Dave Greenwood and without Caldwell Jones the Bulls had a 112.5 ORTG (+4.6) and MJ, as a rookie, averaged 29.9/7.7/6.6 on 60 TS% with an extraordinarily high for MJ (rookie problems I guess) 13 TOV%.

You can look at his full powered offenses other seasons of you want to as well. For example in 1988 after trading for Sam Vincent they had a 112.4 ORTG (+4.4). We don't have to downplay Jordan or act as if his achievements aren't as impressive by using unequal criteria. Let your argument stand on its own.

By his second Cleveland stint, Lebron had become good to very good at all these scoring weaknesses while also upgrading his passing and decision making. The end result was a player whose production/efficiency was barely affected by opposing defensive quality(he actually put up his best numbers vs the league's best defense), who could adjust and counter opposing schemes like no one else ever:

Or maybe it's that first rounds back then (aka games against the easiest opponents most years from 88-93) were only 5 games max and required 3 games to win? Like this metric is completely unfair and proves nothing at all, it penalizes MJ for (for example) his series in 92 against Miami where he averaged 45/10/7 on 67 TS% with 4 stocks a night. This argument is weak and that narrative is tired. Like I don't see what's so positive about improving as a series goes on, you'd think the goal is 4-0 every round.

Highly reminiscent of what Phil wrote in Eleven Rings about Scottie being the quarterback and middle linebacker for offense and defense, being the guy who bore mental load of running the offense and getting people in their spots on defense and directing people. This allowed MJ to singularly focus on getting buckets as well as following his own defensive plan alongside the common Jordan steal improvisations. When you play, it can't be overstated how draining and constricting it is to be the guy responsible for rhe majority of the communication on the floor for one end, let alone both ends.

Which is what makes LeBron so incredible because he's been the control tower on offense and defense for damn near his entire career. We've had coaches and teammates describe him as a coach on the floor.

Yeah LeBron needed to be coach on the floor just like he needed to be GM in the off-season, because that's what he wanted. It's not a positive that LeBron is the type of player that tries to get future HOF coaches fired before he even gives them a chance. Eddie House flat out said he tried to get Spo fired and we clearly saw him refuse to buy in that year. Hell Eddie House still seems salty about that missing ring lol. Some teammates feel different from the players that won with him, for obvious reasons.

My recollection was the 2020 Lakers had a top 5 offense pre bubble, I feel using the bubble is fine since the Lakers were the one who lost home court

Ehh this is kinda misleading. Yes they were #5 but they had a 113.7 ORTG and #10 had a 113.0. They were good, but not elite.

2015/2016/2017/2018 lebron pretty obviously reigned it in during the regular season, 2015 bron obv had injury issues but I their offense was 1st in the games he played, it just was worst in the league level while he was hurt iirc, just checking through.

If anything metrics showing that the Love/Kyrie Cavs were one of the worst offenses in the league without LeBron shows how unreliable and misinformed WOWY numbers are. The NBA isn't just additive like that and teams prepare differently when practice time is limited during the season and a player goes down.

Even in an off-year(bad back, broken jumper) Lebron was more valuable than Jordan offensively, and maintained that value even at a massive spacing disadvantage. It's not because Lebron is limited(by his second stint in Cleveland, Lebron was a very good shooter and an excellent off-ball player), it isn't because Lebron isn't portable(Lebron has achieved more impressive results than Mike with and without strong shooting), and it isn't because Lebron can't lift a ceiling(Lebron's best 5 year playoff offenses are actually better than Mike's).

The issue here is that with 3 point shooting it's easier to blowout teams and postseason offensive ratings have trended upwards for ages. Not to mention MJ's #2 was Pippen, a player who's worse than Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, D. Wade, AD, and Kyrie Irving as an offensive player.

It's because Lebron is better at basketball. His "assists" are on average more valuable, and he doesn't need a second superstar to run his offense. That doesn't mean he "can't" fit with other stars or a system(Lebron+Wade lineups were comparable to Jordan+Pippen despite a weaker supporting cast, much higher skill-overlap, and Wade literally getting his knees operated over and over again), but it does mean Lebron doesn't need nearly as much to compete or win(The 13 Spurs and the 2016 Cavs were better than anyone MJ triumphed over).

Miami was TOTALLY known for their weak supporting cast comprised of Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Mario Chalmers, Ray Allen, Shane Battier, UD, Mike Miller, and Birdman. Like come on if you want to talk injuries how about Scottie's injuries in 98? They were a +6.1 team without him half the season in 98, and he had a negative on/off in the playoffs (he scored 14 points in the last 2 games of the Finals his back was so bad). Why are we pretending MJ had perfectly healthy teammates and didn't show the ability to step up at other points in their career?

Also the 2013 Spurs are great but the Bad Boy Pistons were better and an incomplete version of the first threepeat Bulls took them to 7 (in game 7 the young Bulls Scottie, Horace, and BJ shot a combined 5/35). Remember the Spurs beat them like a drum in 2014 and in 2013 fell one unnecessary Pop substitution away from winning it all.

(1) You are combining the defensive value of a steal with the offensive value generated. On the defensive side alone, steals aren't nearly as valuable as plays at the rim.

I'm sorry, what? If I called this what it was if get a warning lmao. A stop is a stop, a steal is more valuable because there's no offensive rebound chance to it. That and a forced turnover are the only stops where there's no chance for the offense to recover.

Statistically steals don't correlate to DRTG like blocks do, but that's because as stated before they're usually from gambling and gambles fail. In rare occasions they aren't, and those players are still great defenders (no one can convince me Matisse Thybulle isn't a good defender).

Additionally, just like blocks, "steals" from a non-big often are a byproduct of a bigger player's influence...
https://youtu.be/p5aNUS762wM?t=1165
Here, Jordan is able to get a steal because Oakley stonewalls the attacker and occupies his attention.

Wait... Are we pretending now that help defense is useless after you were harping on MJ not having to deal with it? This is the problem with using other posters' work to support yours, they don't all believe or think the same things, so you end up making a lot of contradictory arguments here.

Yet as far as these box-models are concerned, all the credit here belongs to MJ.

These the same box models that use height and position at times as a proxy for how much credit each individual player should get for a stop? Those ones? Of course they aren't perfect, but this is equally as true for all box models and box score stats on both sides of the ball if you want to be real.

Lebron didn't stop giving "effort" defensively post-Miami. He simply prioritized paint-protection/help:

It's funny, in a post full of defensive tracking data, at no point did you actually pull up how many paint shot attempts they defended as evidence... Wonder why?

In 2014 he contested 2.8 shots inside of 6 feet. In 2015 it was 2.2. in 2016 it was 2.3. 2017 (when the Cavs were I think 23rd on defense) it was 3.7. Spectacular results. His on/off numbers aren't even all that good in 2017 either. This is your argument that he didn't start coasting.

His shots defended inside increased in the playoffs too. About an extra shot a game each year. He was CLEARLY coasting in the regular season.

Colts18 did some tracking of Jordan's defense during the 92 finals against Clyde Drexler, and Drexler shot better against MJ than he did against everyone else by a decent margin. He shot 41% overall, but against Jordan specifically shot 44% while he shot 38% against everyone else.

TS%, USG%, and TOV%. FG% is flawed.

Jordan's "leadership" probably did more damage to the Wizards than anything Lebron has done, and it doesn't seem Jordan was much different in Chicago.

Yeah he wasn't a partial owner of the franchise looking to purchase it when he retired after making the owner some money on the floor. He was a player looking to win games and he stayed in his place. He criticized, most guys do (in the top 10 in this thread you got MJ, Bron, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem have been malcontents at points), but it does matter to most people that two of those guys, in the same era, stuck it out and won every ring in an 8 year stretch. It's admirable.

“They’re not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won’t make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They’re spending all their time chasing this guy.”

Lol the whole team felt this way. Scottie was on his ass like glue as well. End of the day it's the 90s, in their eyes a player that's in Europe playing on another team is a waste of time.

“I don’t know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy.” – Michael questioning the Oakley trade

Why do people bring this quote up? He was right! You telling me Bill Cartwright and Will Purdue (11th overall pick) was a better asset than Charles Oakley and the 19th overall pick (Rod Strickland if you wanna know who was drafted there)?

He was very mad when the Bulls fired...Doug Collins, who let Jordan skip practices and try and be Lebron(with significantly less winning). He was upset when the Bulls made good moves to help him win rings, and blamed his teammates when they weren't winning(which lines up with him complaining that all his teammates were coke-heads in the last-dance).

The Bulls ultimately won with Jordan being forced to let other people make decisions, and then when he finally got his chance to do things the way he wanted, he basically set-back a franchise with the same "leadership" we saw him flashing before Phil came to Chicago.

"Being forced" lmao. MJ on a team he partially owned is the only other player that has ever behaved like LeBron has for two franchises now. Neither of which he owns.

Sadly, clutch is not just scoring and Lebron is better at nearly everything else, which is why...

2009 Cavaliers: +39.9
2013 Heat: +33.7
2011 Mavericks: +29.5
2007 Mavericks: +29.0
2006 Clippers: +27.1
2010 Cavaliers: +26.4
1998 Lakers: +26.2
1999 Magic: +25.7
2008 Cavaliers: +24.2
2004 Pacers: +23.4

MJ in 97 was 9-2 in the clutch in the postseason (tied for best with other Bulls guys). 20-10 in the regular season. In 98 he was slipping a bit more but he was 8-6 in the clutch in the postseason (tied for the most wins), and 21-16 in the regular season. Now I know for a fact the Heat in were like -2 or -3 in the clutch in the 2013 postseason.

Now I agree young Bron was clutch, but when he was tested like MJ was he folded sometimes and MJ folded never.

Only if you cherrypick what counts as "accomplishment". What makes putting up the most points more meaningful than a triple-double? But whatever, at least be consistent. Why are we counting Jordan's expansion era MVP's if we're discounting longevity?

Expansion era? Lmao. Everyone was playing at the same time, MJ was the best and most successful so he was winning the MVPs and still had some stolen from him.

We also really, really start cherrypicking when we get here:

Jordan also was never outplayed by one of his teammates in the finals, or played as poorly as James did in the 2011 finals.

Lebron lost a winnable final in an off-year. But he proceeded to be the best player on either team in the next 7, with 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, and 20 all stacking up to any of MJ's performances via box(and all of them being arguably or clearly ahead(12, 16) when we account for pesky details like defense(12, 13, 15, 16), cast(all of them but 12), coaching(14), running the offense(all of them), quality of creation(all of them), and opponent quality(all of them but 12 and 20).

So basically "LeBron was great other times!" Like it's not a cherry pick, it's a criticism of his career. You can't pick and choose what to include and exclude. He's lost years he should've won because he played bad. MJ hasn't. Hell the 2007 Finals is a failure too if we want to go there. His teammates defended well and hit shots, his reaction to the Spurs defense doomed Cleveland. Games 3 and 4 were won by 4 points. LeBron had 24.5 ppg, 7 apg, 5.5 topg, and a 41 TS% and 83 individual ORTG.

2011 was still a better season than 1995(50+win help, crushed in 2nd round),

1. The Bulls were 34-31 before MJ came back and 13-4 the rest of the way.

2. By SRS the 1994 Bulls were a +3 team, and the 95 Bulls were between a +3-4. That's good, but far from the +10 regular season squads Chicago had with a in basketball shape MJ.

3. No part of the Bulls were crushed in that series. They averaged less than a point less per game than Orlando, went 4-2, and were a few bad plays away from winning the series.

4. MJ was still the best player in the series over Scottie, Shaq, and Penny and he wasn't even in shape. He got embarrassed in game 1, came back in the 23 Jersey and gave em 33/7/4 a night with 5 stocks on 56 TS% with a 114 ORTG.

which was sandwiched between Jordan being bailed out of an all-time choke in 1993,

This is just a lie. Jordan played great against NY in 93.

If that's being bailed out of a choke Lebron literally was outscored 4 different games in 2013 and still won the series in 7 thanks to moments like game 2 where LeBron was front running. I think he had 4 points in the first half and maybe 3 assists and was looking 2011 levels of passive whole Wade and the bench was doing it all to keep a lead at half, Bron had another quiet 3rd quarter, then Chalmers made a few plays to give them a 10 point lead and once the game was getting out of hand Bron scored and assisted on like 5-7 buckets straight to get the lead to like 25 and had that iconic block during the run.

That happened a lot in that series, for example the team (Mario Chalmers again) keeping them in it during game 6 until LeBron lost the headband and finally stopped playing soft.

Jordan quitting in 1994, and Jordan being bailed out of the greatest choke ever in 96(and maybe they lose anyway if Payton is on Jordan from the start).

Again another lie.

93-96 is quite easily the worst 4-year stretch in the primes of any of the conventional GOAT candidates,

A stretch where he won two rings in dominant fashion isn't easily the worst just because you wanna count years he was retired as him still being an active player. It makes no logical sense.

and Jordan's prime was by far the shortest.

And in all that time no one outplayed him in a playoff series.

You can deflect with team success, but that will only get you so far, as even by rings(Kareem wins if we use finals as a tiebreaker, Duncan wins via general winning, Lebron wins with raw totals), he greatly trails Bill who, like Lebron, beat multiple teams, stronger than anyone MJ vanquished, with significantly less help(1969).

Russell was 107-58 in his whole playoff career. MJ was 105-37 from 1990 to 1998 (119-60 overall). They're about equal as winners.

When it comes to players that have won an MVP before the top guys by win percentage in the postseason are:
1. Stephen Curry (.694 - it's .652 without KD in the lineup)
2. Magic Johnson (.674)
3. Michael Jordan (.665)
4. LeBron James (.654)
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (.650)
6. Bill Russell (.648)

Now remember two of these guys played in historically weak conferences most of their careers and had no threats until the Finals (Magic and Bron). It's obvious who the most winningest top tier players ever are.

All in all you're a smart poster so take this as constructive criticism. Puking up stats doesn't really make your point if you're not engaging the argument honestly and you're just trying to throw out whatever points you think will stick. You got to set parameters before just throwing out a bunch of stars loosely connected with logically inconsistent reasoning, or you open yourself up to a lot of scrutiny. Plus you have to make sure whatever you're posting has a meaning. If the argument is that LeBron being a do it all player is better than Jordan excelling in his role then prove it and give a logical foundation to your argument.

[70sFan]

It’s definitely gotta be Bird. Gets compared to LeBron and Jokic as a passer despite never getting an AST% over 30. Gets talked about as an all-time shooter with a career 3-point percentage lower than Jimmy Butler in the playoffs. Has a reputation as an all-time clutch guy when he only cracked a 22.0 PER in the playoffs twice in his career.

It seems like he’s mostly just a good player who benefited from being on good teams in a weak era. I can see a better argument that he should be ranked below James Harden than I can that he should be ranked ahead of Steph Curry.

I don't have Bird in my top 10, but it's not surprising that you have him that low, considering that his impact was never about boxscore production.

I mean his defensive reputation was mixed so it’s all about the passing, right? What’s so great about the passing? He gets 2/3 as many assists as LeBron and whenever you watch tapes of Bird’s “incredible highlight passing”, it’s all just normal run of the mill passes that everyone makes now. When I see Bird highlights, I don’t think “wow, he made really incredible passes”, I think “huh, that was considered impressive then?” Like I really don’t see what I’m missing.

No, it's not all about passing. Basketball is much more sophisticated than just "scoring + passing + defense". It is also how you move without the ball, how you coexist with other players on the floor, your decision making, your little things like screen setting, hustle... Bird is one of the greatest off-ball players ever who could fit next to any type of player on offense and boxscore won't tell you that.

As far as passing goes, well - it seems we watch different leagues then because I don't see Bird-level passers running around right now. I'd argue that nobody except Jokic is on that level.

[nikster]

I started watching the nba when I was 12 in 87. First game i watched was Boston and Atlanta on CBS on a Sunday. Bird was my favorite player growing up. My team was the Mavs but i thought Bird was the best player in the league back then. So i missed Jordans first few years. You caught me kid.

and were a teenager for basically his entire career. And you think thats enough to be so superior to those who disagree that you just ignore well made points with "I watched him and know hes the best at everything"

So me watching Jordan when i was a teenager has less merit than someone not watching Jordan in the late 80s and 90s??? What are you talking about?? So nobody who thinks Jordan is the superior player to James makes valid points??? Lol go back a page or so and i explained why i think he is superior player to James. If you dont agree then ok, have your own opinion man. Do you think everything that you read on here is the gospel??? The truth is you young guys cant help it when people disagree with yall about lebron james. Just get over yourself kid.

You mean your lazy arguments about scoring titles, all defense awards awards and Lebron isn't a leader because he changed teams? All arguments that someone could have made without ever watching any Jordan. Arguments that OhayoKD largely addressed.

I think OhayoKDs arguments have merit because he backed them up, even if some of them are flawed, and I can see the logic behind them. You basically just said "eye test" and that this conversation is beneath

[lambchop]

Not gonna vote but I always wonder how good Russell would have been in the modern NBA. The league was much, much smaller in his heyday (we're talking about 8 teams for a lot of years and 14 at the end of his career) and he was essentially a prototypical defensive big. Not to say he wouldn't have been capable of shooting from distance and I mean no disrespect to his accomplishments, but when I look at the rest of the list, his name is the one that makes me wonder.

Yea the 8 teams thing really is interesting. I personally think it made it easier to win and be successful. At the same time, if NBA decided to trim the league to 8 teams now, the quality of play and competition would go through the roof. It would be a league where guys like Derozan, Lavine, Middelton, Scottie Barnes, Trae Young would not be able to be starters. And among the top PGs there would probably be some among Brunson/CP3/Haliburton/Garland/Holiday that wouldn't be starters either.

It would be insanely difficult to stand out in a league like that and win multiple championships.

[druggas]

Out that list prolly Magic he was jus an oversized PG, a player playing out of position Kuz he could pass..in this era he would b getting the Ben simmons treatment with ppl talking bout why he ain't shootin the ball more.. maybe Kuz he cant shoot :dontknow: obviously I'm exaggerating but if I had to pick one I would go with him

You clearly never once watched Magic Johnson play in a single NBA game. You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

This.

[E-Balla]

I don't have Bird in my top 10, but it's not surprising that you have him that low, considering that his impact was never about boxscore production.

I mean his defensive reputation was mixed so it’s all about the passing, right? What’s so great about the passing? He gets 2/3 as many assists as LeBron and whenever you watch tapes of Bird’s “incredible highlight passing”, it’s all just normal run of the mill passes that everyone makes now. When I see Bird highlights, I don’t think “wow, he made really incredible passes”, I think “huh, that was considered impressive then?” Like I really don’t see what I’m missing.

No, it's not all about passing. Basketball is much more sophisticated than just "scoring + passing + defense". It is also how you move without the ball, how you coexist with other players on the floor, your decision making, your little things like screen setting, hustle... Bird is one of the greatest off-ball players ever who could fit next to any type of player on offense and boxscore won't tell you that.

As far as passing goes, well - it seems we watch different leagues then because I don't see Bird-level passers running around right now. I'd argue that nobody except Jokic is on that level.

I've noticed this a lot since Elgee said it in a video and made it a thing. Players make DIFFERENT not necessarily harder reads in a league with increased spacing and movement and for some reason now that means players are better passers. These same players probably couldn't throw a heavily contested post entry pass to save their lives, but we're supposed to believe one type of pass is inherently harder than the other because it travels a further distance to the three point line instead of inside, regardless of the fact that it's a simple if a happens do b type of read.

[70sFan]

I mean his defensive reputation was mixed so it’s all about the passing, right? What’s so great about the passing? He gets 2/3 as many assists as LeBron and whenever you watch tapes of Bird’s “incredible highlight passing”, it’s all just normal run of the mill passes that everyone makes now. When I see Bird highlights, I don’t think “wow, he made really incredible passes”, I think “huh, that was considered impressive then?” Like I really don’t see what I’m missing.

No, it's not all about passing. Basketball is much more sophisticated than just "scoring + passing + defense". It is also how you move without the ball, how you coexist with other players on the floor, your decision making, your little things like screen setting, hustle... Bird is one of the greatest off-ball players ever who could fit next to any type of player on offense and boxscore won't tell you that.

As far as passing goes, well - it seems we watch different leagues then because I don't see Bird-level passers running around right now. I'd argue that nobody except Jokic is on that level.

I've noticed this a lot since Elgee said it in a video and made it a thing. Players make DIFFERENT not necessarily harder reads in a league with increased spacing and movement and for some reason now that means players are better passers. These same players probably couldn't throw a heavily contested post entry pass to save their lives, but we're supposed to believe one type of pass is inherently harder than the other because it travels a further distance to the three point line instead of inside, regardless of the fact that it's a simple if a happens do b type of read.

I have been quite vocal about the absence of entry passing skills in the league for a long time, so I know what you mean here.

[Godymas]

well OP didn't put Kobe in the top 10 so i have to pick Hakeem by default

If Giannis gets another ring he's getting close to passing Hakeem at 28

Curry has a good argument to be ahead of Hakeem despite the lack of defense.

My other pick might have to be Magic, tons of winning, not good defense, Curry puts an argument against Magic

[MavsDirk41]

and were a teenager for basically his entire career. And you think thats enough to be so superior to those who disagree that you just ignore well made points with "I watched him and know hes the best at everything"

So me watching Jordan when i was a teenager has less merit than someone not watching Jordan in the late 80s and 90s??? What are you talking about?? So nobody who thinks Jordan is the superior player to James makes valid points??? Lol go back a page or so and i explained why i think he is superior player to James. If you dont agree then ok, have your own opinion man. Do you think everything that you read on here is the gospel??? The truth is you young guys cant help it when people disagree with yall about lebron james. Just get over yourself kid.

You mean your lazy arguments about scoring titles, all defense awards awards and Lebron isn't a leader because he changed teams? All arguments that someone could have made without ever watching any Jordan. Arguments that OhayoKD largely addressed.

I think OhayoKDs arguments have merit because he backed them up, even if some of them are flawed, and I can see the logic behind them. You basically just said "eye test" and that this conversation is beneath

So you are gonna attack my arguments as lazy and what have you added to this conversation other than - “i agree with what he says”? If you are more of an expert and want to add your two cents then fire away captain, if not quit trying to pick a fight. Also, so players being awarded for all defensive team, DPOY, winning scoring titles, and such are not important and dont have anything to do with the player “deserving” of those awards?? Please explain my man….

James jumped ship multiple times to benefit “himself” - that is not a leader……

If James is your goat cool, i dont care, but again, he is not the greatest player that i have ever seen. If that bothers you so much….seek help

[MavsDirk41]

well OP didn't put Kobe in the top 10 so i have to pick Hakeem by default

If Giannis gets another ring he's getting close to passing Hakeem at 28

Curry has a good argument to be ahead of Hakeem despite the lack of defense.

My other pick might have to be Magic, tons of winning, not good defense, Curry puts an argument against Magic

The only thing about putting Curry in the top 10 is he only has 2 fmvps awards, not that that is a huge knock on him but Durant was just so good in the 2017 and 2018 finals. Hakeem didnt have anything near the supporting cast that Curry has had. That and Hakeem was dominate defensively.

[iggymcfrack]

well OP didn't put Kobe in the top 10 so i have to pick Hakeem by default

If Giannis gets another ring he's getting close to passing Hakeem at 28

Curry has a good argument to be ahead of Hakeem despite the lack of defense.

My other pick might have to be Magic, tons of winning, not good defense, Curry puts an argument against Magic

The only thing about putting Curry in the top 10 is he only has 2 fmvps awards, not that that is a huge knock on him but Durant was just so good in the 2017 and 2018 finals. Hakeem didnt have anything near the supporting cast that Curry has had. That and Hakeem was dominate defensively.

He actually only has one FMVP. Iguodala won in 2015. I wouldn’t really hold that against him though. He was clearly much more valuable than KD over the championship runs as shown by on/off, impact stats, and team record when he or KD missed games. Furthermore, both series with Cleveland were short series against a clearly overmatched opponent. The only real competitive series in those 2 championship runs was the WCF against Houston in 2018. Steph was +56 in that series while KD was only +39 with similar box numbers. So KD might have played better in the Finals, but Steph played better in the only series that actually mattered.

[MavsDirk41]

well OP didn't put Kobe in the top 10 so i have to pick Hakeem by default

If Giannis gets another ring he's getting close to passing Hakeem at 28

Curry has a good argument to be ahead of Hakeem despite the lack of defense.

My other pick might have to be Magic, tons of winning, not good defense, Curry puts an argument against Magic

The only thing about putting Curry in the top 10 is he only has 2 fmvps awards, not that that is a huge knock on him but Durant was just so good in the 2017 and 2018 finals. Hakeem didnt have anything near the supporting cast that Curry has had. That and Hakeem was dominate defensively.

He actually only has one FMVP. Iguodala won in 2015. I wouldn’t really hold that against him though. He was clearly much more valuable than KD over the championship runs as shown by on/off, impact stats, and team record when he or KD missed games. Furthermore, both series with Cleveland were short series against a clearly overmatched opponent. The only real competitive series in those 2 championship runs was the WCF against Houston in 2018. Steph was +56 in that series while KD was only +39 with similar box numbers. So KD might have played better in the Finals, but Steph played better in the only series that actually mattered.

Yea i forgot Iggy got the fmvp in 2015….should have gone to Curry but Iggy was great that series. Hard for me to put Curry over the Dream but its close z