The Race To The Bottom - theBigLip Tank Machine

[ComboGuardCity]

I've long considered Melo to be one of the more overrated players in NBA history. Guy scored a lot of points on mediocre efficiency. There's definitely value in a guy who's able to do that (give most role players the number of shots that Melo had they'd be way less efficient), but Melo was never really very good at anything outside of scoring. Everyone agrees Wade would have been a better pick, but I'd have also preferred Chris Bosh.

That said, not taking him was a huge mistake- not because Melo should be considered some all-time great but because of how awful Darko turned out to be. That pick ensured that we'd experience the decline we did as our core players started to age out.

It's just a mistake I'm a bit tired of relitigating.

Side note in passing: I wonder at which point we "promised" Melo he would be drafted by us. I distinctly remember him refusing to workout with us because it already looked like we were taking Darko.

Melo is a hall of famer. Not sure how he’s overrated. As an individual he’s one of the best scorers ever in his prime. His legacy would be much different if he had a Dirk like supporting cast that propelled him into the finals. If anything, he’s one of the scorers who suffers the most from not having a ring.

I really hope you’re not implying he was as good as Dirk…

No I’m saying if Melo had a team that fit him like a glove like Dirk did, which led to that magical championship run where Dirk went off, Melo wouldn’t be seen as “overrated.” Now is that partly his fault since he forced himself to New York? Yeah. But Melo is a deserved hall of famer and most definitely not overrated

[Snakebites]

Melo is a hall of famer. Not sure how he’s overrated. As an individual he’s one of the best scorers ever in his prime. His legacy would be much different if he had a Dirk like supporting cast that propelled him into the finals. If anything, he’s one of the scorers who suffers the most from not having a ring.

I really hope you’re not implying he was as good as Dirk…

No I’m saying if Melo had a team that fit him like a glove like Dirk did, which led to that magical championship run where Dirk went off, Melo wouldn’t be seen as “overrated.” Now is that partly his fault since he forced himself to New York? Yeah. But Melo is a deserved hall of famer and most definitely not overrated

Dirk was a better player. He was good enough to win a championship as the only star provided he had the right guys around him.

Melo never was that, so I really don't think that "what if" is all that productive a statement. He's a guy who got that superstar label based on point production despite never actually being high enough in impact to actually live up to that label. Check out the advanced stats. They paint a clear picture. This is a guy who took a lot of shots and scored a lot, and he didn't really do anything else at an above average level and didn't make anyone around him better.

Don't mistake me. We'd have been way better off with him than Darko. But Melo is only an "all time great" by counting stats that just aren't as relevant as they once were. His game doesn't hold up when looking at efficiency and impact metrics.

[JNewton]

Side note in passing: I wonder at which point we "promised" Melo he would be drafted by us. I distinctly remember him refusing to workout with us because it already looked like we were taking Darko.

I seem to recall Denver made an offer to swap picks and move up to 2 to take Darko as well.

[Manocad]

The idea that the Pistons would have been better served long-term drafting Melo, Bosh or Wade is fine. No argument there whatsoever.

The idea that they weren't drafting Darko if Lebron went #1 is totally revisionist history, period. Just stop.

[Roddy B for 3]

Do we think Wiseman or Duren turn into above average starters in the next 2 or 3 years?

[zeebneeb]

Do we think Wiseman or Duren turn into above average starters in the next 2 or 3 years?

I believe, and I think many would agree with me, even as a rookie, if Jalen Duren was playing 30mpg on any team with a plus record basically, he would be a above average starter in the NBA.

It is insanely difficult to really tell, because of just how bad this team is, and how poor it has been coached.

Wiseman is a +rebounder, and is pretty damn good at putting the ball in the basket, and seems to be decent at man defense, but anytime he is asked to do anything on defense other then play straight man-to-man, he is just terrible. With that said, he still hasn't played a full NBA season, (75 games)so who the hell knows.

[bstein14]

So far for us, Wiseman hasn't been that good. Last year with GS in 21 games he had a 65.5 TS% which would be solid for sure, but for us in 15 games (small sample size I know) he's been scoring at a 57.8 TS% which is just about league average. It's actually below a guy like Diallo. I know there's a difference for a guy who you can throw the ball to and let create a shot for himself, but overall for what Wiseman lacks on defense you'd certainly hope he can be an overall positive impact player by more efficiently putting the ball in the basket.

Of course we're in the G League 10 day min contract tankathon portion of our season right now so its not really giving Wiseman all the tools he needs to best be able to score efficiently down low.... but if he goes through next season with a similar TS% then he's not doing well enough on offense to make up for everything else out there.

I'd also personally would have liked to give Duren more touches down low but now it seems all our offense in the post are throw ins down to Wiseman or Bagley and Duren is left with mostly just scraps still which is unfortunate because Duren clearly has the most upside of the three IMO.

[Invictus88]

So far for us, Wiseman hasn't been that good. Last year with GS in 21 games he had a 65.5 TS% which would be solid for sure, but for us in 15 games (small sample size I know) he's been scoring at a 57.8 TS% which is just about league average. It's actually below a guy like Diallo. I know there's a difference for a guy who you can throw the ball to and let create a shot for himself, but overall for what Wiseman lacks on defense you'd certainly hope he can be an overall positive impact player by more efficiently putting the ball in the basket.

Of course we're in the G League 10 day min contract tankathon portion of our season right now so its not really giving Wiseman all the tools he needs to best be able to score efficiently down low.... but if he goes through next season with a similar TS% then he's not doing well enough on offense to make up for everything else out there.

I'd also personally would have liked to give Duren more touches down low but now it seems all our offense in the post are throw ins down to Wiseman or Bagley and Duren is left with mostly just scraps still which is unfortunate because Duren clearly has the most upside of the three IMO.

I honestly think that unless Wiseman can gain another 30 lbs of muscle that having the offense flow through him at the post is a misuse of his strengths and frankly isn't winning basketball. I think his post numbers prove this.

I think it's much better if we use him off pick and rolls almost exclusively; only throwing it to him in the paint if he is rolling there in motion or in transition. I'd much rather see him try to develop something of a perimeter game to compliment his ball skills (which are decent; especially for his height). His form looks halfway decent and he shot 32% from 3 his rookie year..

My ideal solution for him is to work on those facets which then makes a lineup of him and Duren on the court together much more viable. It's funny. I remember seeing Duren practicing threes in the preseason as well. I wonder what ever happened with that...

It would also help if we could bring in anyone who could just run ALL of our bigs through contact/rebounding drills. Like why can't they just learn to box out. My goodness.

[Kilo]

Wiseman has no dog in him. That was known when he was drafted and landing on a veteran team with Dray et al type personalities has him Darko'd. He'll be a decent back-up if he wants to stick it out, but could wash out after his next contract with one last team thinking they can fix him for $5M a season.

[Snakebites]

I’m never really one to say that a bad tourney performance should impact the stock of a player. It is only a few games after all.

But if ever there was a guy to have that talk about with respect to an elimination game it would be Brandon Miller. Terrible performance in an upset loss to SDSU. He was invisible at the best of times…

And upon further review he was 8-41 across 3 tourney games.

[Kalamazoo317]

Y'all are so friggin negative. I like what I've seen out of Wiseman so far. He has some definite potential and looks like our best player when he's on (you could say that about a number of our players, but he looks like a keeper so far).

[bstein14]

Y'all are so friggin negative. I like what I've seen out of Wiseman so far. He has some definite potential and looks like our best player when he's on (you could say that about a number of our players, but he looks like a keeper so far).

Next summer Weaver will have to decide wether or not to offer him a $16 million qualifying offer to keep him a RFA.... if he doesn't he becomes a UFA.... right now I can't see him being worth $16+ million per year.... He's honestly worth less than MLE $ IMO but he has been solid in stretches... Just like Bagley was solid in stretches.... I'm just not sold on giving them both big deals especially if it looks like Wiseman is just going to be 24 MPG with Duren splitting time with him next year.

[joedumars1]

Y'all are so friggin negative. I like what I've seen out of Wiseman so far. He has some definite potential and looks like our best player when he's on (you could say that about a number of our players, but he looks like a keeper so far).

Stat wise yeah wiseman has been fine, but would duren exceed what wiseman did if he was getting the chances wiseman got? That’s my problem with wiseman, it took from duren. Granted duren was hurt also, but I want duren to get all the chances in the work to develop.

[bstein14]

Y'all are so friggin negative. I like what I've seen out of Wiseman so far. He has some definite potential and looks like our best player when he's on (you could say that about a number of our players, but he looks like a keeper so far).

Stat wise yeah wiseman has been fine, but would duren exceed what wiseman did if he was getting the chances wiseman got? That’s my problem with wiseman, it took from duren. Granted duren was hurt also, but I want duren to get all the chances in the work to develop.

100% These last 10 games should have been 30+ MPG for Duren with him getting double digit shot attempts each night. Let the kid play and develop out there.

[zeebneeb]

This is the one time I will defend captain numbnuts, but he may be restricting Durens minutes per the team, to make sure his ankles heal correctly.

If not though, just add it to the massive list of reasons he needs to be put out to pasture.

[Kalamazoo317]

I don't think having to compete for minutes will hurt Duren's development. If anything, it should be good for it.

[bstein14]

I don't think having to compete for minutes will hurt Duren's development. If anything, it should be good for it.

I agree its ideal to have him have another rotation player to compete with for center minutes... earlier in the season is was Bagley getting more minutes but then eventually Duren earned the starting job and was playing more MPG most nights compared to Bagley.... it felt very much like he beat out Bagley. So now if its the same with Wiseman, I just don't want Wiseman gifted a starting job or any specific amount of minutes. Give it to the guy that deserves it between the two.... even if that means playing Duren 30 MPG and Wiseman 18 MPG at center next year.

[Spider156]

I get the feeling Weaver is looking to flip Wiseman this summer. It makes too much sense because he doesn’t fit next to Duren and Wiseman’s QO is too big for us to offer for a backup center and Duren deserves the starting role. I can see Wiseman for Grant happening this summer along with dumping Killian Hayes with wiseman. Bagley might stay given that he can provide similar offensive punch even though I like wiseman more, bagley fits the PF position more next to Duren and that’s what it’s all about. I think the team waits to see where they are going to draft first and on draft night, watch out.

[theBigLip]

I get the feeling Weaver is looking to flip Wiseman this summer. It makes too much sense because he doesn’t fit next to Duren and Wiseman’s QO is too big for us to offer for a backup center and Duren deserves the starting role. I can see Wiseman for Grant happening this summer along with dumping Killian Hayes with wiseman. Bagley might stay given that he can provide similar offensive punch even though I like wiseman more, bagley fits the PF position more next to Duren and that’s what it’s all about. I think the team waits to see where they are going to draft first and on draft night, watch out.

Definitely no firm plans until the lottery. Wiseman could play the 4 if things work out for the best. He's still worth the QO - it's the big extension that is worrisome. We get one more year to see what he really is.

[Pharaoh]

I get the feeling Weaver is looking to flip Wiseman this summer. It makes too much sense because he doesn’t fit next to Duren and Wiseman’s QO is too big for us to offer for a backup center and Duren deserves the starting role. I can see Wiseman for Grant happening this summer along with dumping Killian Hayes with wiseman. Bagley might stay given that he can provide similar offensive punch even though I like wiseman more, bagley fits the PF position more next to Duren and that’s what it’s all about. I think the team waits to see where they are going to draft first and on draft night, watch out.

Weaver has been aggressive at Draft time a couple of times so I wouldn't be surprised to see a trade.

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app